Having issues with friend about Catholicism

[jcrichton]

… 'm a catechumen right now, and I’ve been talking for a short while with a friend about my thoughts on becoming a part of the Catholic Church. I told him that I wanted to become a Catholic, and he seemed concerned. He’s a Protestant… and wants to be a Christian counselor.

He asked me if I was 100% sure I wanted to be a Catholic, and that I should be aware that there’s a lot of “weirdness” in the Church… Whatever the case, he came up with a list of about six things, including infant baptism, papal infallibility and apostolic succession, the Catholic Church being the one true Church, purgatory, and the two things I already assumed he’d ask. I did my best in answering him correctly with what I’ve researched and learned in RCIA, but I know that with my lack of knowledge as someone still pretty brand new to Catholicism, and his strong foundation in Protestantism, there’s nothing I can really say to make him see that my choice is the right one.

…he even told me, “The Catholic Church teaches this, but know that this is incorrect and unbilical,” as though I could pick and choose what to believe if I were to become a Catholic. Isn’t there some kind of term for that? A cafeteria Catholic, right? I felt like he was trying to convince me to be a cafeteria Catholic.

That was one of the reasons why I left Protestantism—I felt like I was constantly being told to be a cafeteria Protestant, to just pick and choose and ignore the contention and division among the denominations. But I digress on that.

So, my problems lie in this: when he comes back at me with will most likely be a lot of rebuttals, what should I do? …I couldn’t even explain papal infallibility to him because it’s something that I can’t wrap my head around yet, even though I’ve been trying my best to research it. Should I bring it up to my catechist?

Or, perhaps, should I just leave the conversation at that? I’m not sure, because I know my friend loves to debate, to argue, and I know that even in my situation, he will want to get into an argument with me over this. I’m afraid it might cause an even greater rift between us because I hate arguing and I won’t do it if I see the conversation going in that direction.

But another, quick question: could someone please explain papal infallibility to me? I’ve been going through thread after thread on this forum about the topic, and I’ve already read the tracts on the Catholic Answers site. It’s just not sinking in, lol. So I guess, could someone offer a simple explanation? I’d really appreciate it.

Hi!

Welcomed to the forum!

…and Welcomed Home (the Full Communion with the Mystical Body of Christ)!

…your post is lengthy so I must be curt… so here’s the gist of it:

Papal infallibility: The Pope, as the Prince of Bishops, directs the Church through Guidance of the Holy Spirit and in matters of Faith (Doctrine and Biblical Understanding) the Pope cannot err. What this means is that Jesus’ Church cannot be lead astray by the head of His Church because the Holy Spirit will Guide him in matters of Faith–it is very Biblical since we find St. Peter making ex cathedra staments (infallible) that either resolve problems or state matters of Doctrine:

He makes this point too in his letters as a whole wherever he touches on these things. In all his letters there are of course some passages which are hard to understand, and these are the ones that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture–to their own destruction. (2 St. Peter 3:16)

In this passage St. Peter is telling the Believers that St. Paul’s Writings are Sacred Scriptures–this settles any doubts as to Apostolic Writings: they are Sacred Scriptures!

…your friend rejects the Authority of the Church by claiming some “not Biblical” or “it’s tradition” basis… yet it is Sacred Scriptures that demonstrate that even from her inception the Church relies on Sacred Writings and Sacred Tradition as the Word of God; just the fact that not a single New Testament Writing existed during the Church’s infancy and that Jesus did not employ scribes to take down His Teachings should be reasonable explanation against these anti-Catholic teachings… but we can find it in the New Testament Writings themselves:

1 Take me as your pattern, just as I take Christ for mine. 2 I congratulate you for remembering me so consistently and for maintaining the traditions exactly as I passed them on to you. (1 Corinthians 11:1-2)

St. Paul makes a distinction between human traditions (such used to circumvent God’s Commandments) and Apostolic Tradition–the Oral Communication of the Word of God: the Gospel of Christ–note that herein also lies the Succession of the Apostles!

Protestantism began even at the inception of the Church… the difference is that in Scriptures we find that those who attempted to brake from the Faith were not able to establish alternative “Christian” groups; once far enough removed man’s greed and thirst for power allowed the enfranchisement of Christ–which today it translates to over 30K groups, all claiming to be the church of Christ… here’s a sample passage that they cannot explain away:

Keep doing everything you learnt from me and were told by me and have heard or seen me doing. Then the God of peace will be with you. (Philippians 4:9)

Here’s St. Paul practicing/introducing Apostolic Succession and Sacred Tradition… other than in Sacred Tradition where can we find these things that St. Paul said, did or that Believers heard or saw?

The Church that Protestant negate is the only Church that has Full Communion with the Body of Christ through the Succession of the Apostles and the Word of God, both Written and Orally Transmitted as Tradition!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Pax]

Apologies, mods, if this thread is meant to be somewhere else!

Anyway… I’m a catechumen right now, and I’ve been talking for a short while with a friend about my thoughts on becoming a part of the Catholic Church. I told him that I wanted to become a Catholic, and he seemed concerned. He’s a Protestant and a very smart guy—much smarter than I am in a theological sense. He’s gone to seminary for a few years now or so, and wants to be a Christian counselor.

He asked me if I was 100% sure I wanted to be a Catholic, and that I should be aware that there’s a lot of “weirdness” in the Church. Because he and I are very good friends, like siblings, I had no fear in asking him what he thought was strange. I assumed it would be a list of the usual misunderstandings that are out there, like the “worship” of saints, the Eucharist, etc. After I asked him, though, I remembered who I was really asking, lol.

Whatever the case, he came up with a list of about six things, including infant baptism, papal infallibility and apostolic succession, the Catholic Church being the one true Church, purgatory, and the two things I already assumed he’d ask. I did my best in answering him correctly with what I’ve researched and learned in RCIA, but I know that with my lack of knowledge as someone still pretty brand new to Catholicism, and his strong foundation in Protestantism, there’s nothing I can really say to make him see that my choice is the right one.

This is all being done through messages, by the way. I feel like all I’m going to get in return is him telling me how everything I said was heretical, bad, and I shouldn’t be a Catholic. In fact, while he was listing his questions, he even told me, “The Catholic Church teaches this, but know that this is incorrect and unbilical,” as though I could pick and choose what to believe if I were to become a Catholic. Isn’t there some kind of term for that? A cafeteria Catholic, right? I felt like he was trying to convince me to be a cafeteria Catholic.

That was one of the reasons why I left Protestantism—I felt like I was constantly being told to be a cafeteria Protestant, to just pick and choose and ignore the contention and division among the denominations. But I digress on that.

So, my problems lie in this: when he comes back at me with will most likely be a lot of rebuttals, what should I do? I already told him that everything I responded with in my message was the honest extent of my knowledge so far, but I know he’s going to leave me in a position where he will be strongly against my explanations and my choice. I feel kind of helpless, because I’m just a meager catechumen who’s just beginning to get down the basics. I couldn’t even explain papal infallibility to him because it’s something that I can’t wrap my head around yet, even though I’ve been trying my best to research it. Should I bring it up to my catechist?

Or, perhaps, should I just leave the conversation at that? I’m not sure, because I know my friend loves to debate, to argue, and I know that even in my situation, he will want to get into an argument with me over this. I’m afraid it might cause an even greater rift between us because I hate arguing and I won’t do it if I see the conversation going in that direction.

But another, quick question: could someone please explain papal infallibility to me? I’ve been going through thread after thread on this forum about the topic, and I’ve already read the tracts on the Catholic Answers site. It’s just not sinking in, lol. So I guess, could someone offer a simple explanation? I’d really appreciate it.

Check out the following apologetics website for answers to whatever he may throw at you:

philvaz.com/apologetics/apolog.htm

God bless.

P.S. I’ll say a prayer for you in all of this.

 

[PJM]

=caadam;

Dear frimd I desrire to be of help but it’s a difficult taskwith so many issues being raises.
So understand the evidence I’m sharing is only the “tip if truh”; not the moutain of evidence abailable.

Let’s begin by adding a bit of logic and perspective to the Conversation.

All Christian communions I’m aware of agree that there is Only “One God”; RIGHT?

So given the FACT that their is Only One God: Why would that One God have more than only One set of Faith beliefs?

The NT alone has more than 100+ oassages for Only one Church and Faith.

John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

Eph. 3: 9-10 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [singular] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord,

Acts 20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves *[speaking to and only to the Apostles] *and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of the LORD” [Singular]

he came up with a list of about six things, including infant baptism

For your friends positions to actually be GOD"S; “infants” would have to not be human beings because ALL humanity are given a SOUL at conception by God:
John 3:5 “Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again THAT MEANS all humanity; regardless of AGE!] of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”

1 Timothy 2:4 “To will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth”

papal infallibility and apostolic succession, the Catholic Church

Heres a site LOOK UP THE FOLLOWING in the Order presented: print them outhttp://www.drbo.org/

Your friend lacks biblical understanding. NEVER-EVER CAN; MAY. DOES ONE PASSAGE MAKE VOID; INVALIDATE OR OVERRIDE ANOTHER TEACHING FOR RIGHT UNDERSTANDING:thumbsup:

EACH IS ONLY TO THE APOSTLES AND THROUGHN THEM THE ONLY CHURCH FOUNDED, GUIDED AND PROTECYED BY CHRIST PERSONALLY
Mt. 10:1-8
Mt. 16:15-19 Jesus founds the CC through Peter:
No succession would HAVE to mean Christ Expected His Chruch and 1 set of faith beliefs to die w/ the apostles w/o Succession. IMPOSSIBLE!
Mt. 18:18 powers & authority given to All apostles
Mt.28:16-20 Now commnaded to Teach to the entire world; thus seccession HAS to & has to be God’s Will
Jn.14:16-17
Jn.20:21-22 [fulfilled Christ Promise]
Jn.17:15-19

1. God passes His very Powers and Authority to the Apostles
2. Jesus gives Himself Personally as the warrant and infallibility of all teaching truth on Faitn and Morals

being the one true Church

Today’s CC is the only church FULLY founded, guided, protected by Christ with Direct Apostolic Succession; doing it God’s way. ONLY Peter is given the very KEY to heaves gate!

purgatory

While NOT mentioned as this terml the reality is neverthe less biblical
It flows from Gods Mercy and Love of the humanity
Because God Is Perfect: Matt.5: 48 “You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

Lev.22: 21 “And when any one offers a sacrifice of peace offerings to the LORD, to fulfill a vow or as a freewill offering, from the herd or from the flock, to be accepted it must be perfect; there shall be no blemish in it.

Rev. 21: 27 “But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

Mt. 5: 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.

Each of these passages references Purgatory; a place of “purging” offered to the imperfect; but w/o unconfessed / unforgiven Mortal sins

1 Jn.1:68-10
1 Jn. 5: 16-17
Jn. 20:20-23

THERE IS A GREAT DEAL MORE BUT LIMITED SPACE WISELY LIMITS OUR RESPONSES.

This is all being done through messages, by the way. I feel like all I’m going to get in return is him telling me how everything I said was heretical, bad, and I shouldn’t be a Catholic. In fact, while he was listing his questions, he even told me, “The Catholic Church teaches this, but know that this is incorrect and unbilical,” as though I could pick and choose what to believe if I were to become a Catholic. Isn’t there some kind of term for that? A cafeteria Catholic, right? I felt like he was trying to convince me to be a cafeteria Catholic.

Print out what I offered and USE IT:thumbsup:

You’re doing GREAT! Stay close to God.
Truth IS singual and it’s with the “Key’s” to heaven in Rome

God Bless,
pat /PJM on this FORUM

 

[jcrichton]

nowadays i am of the view that religion is the bane of humanity!..that is obvious…

on the other hand, all religions are paths to the one CREATOR, and obviously no one religion is superior to another!..

we are all born accidentally or providentially into a particular religion, and it follows from the above, we are to defend all the TRUTH only, that our religion stands for or affirms!

from the internet i have just read that the inter-faith dialogue that jp2 concentrated on, has been repudiated or diluted by his successor…i presume that jp2’s 3 predecessors, all popes of great discernment, were his guides…IN FACT, it has to be so, since jp2 adopted the twin names of his predecessors!

christians, jews and muslims (according to jp2 to muslim youth, they & christians worship the same God), adore the same God, yet all 3 have been at war against one another. negativing their own religious beliefs, esp. w r t Murder!..and history is replete with blood-shed of innocents!

as to infallibility, although you will never understand it (or perhaps you will), you are going to pay ‘homage’ to it, because it is mandatory, though not necessarily the TRUTH!

Note: this is a sensitive sub. on a Cat. site, and these are my views based on what i have read or heard of the WORD OF GOD - JESUS CHRIST…no replies would be given to any arrogant persons, who are a dime a dozen (meaning innumerable) on this site!

‘TRUTH IS OFTEN ECLIPSED BUT IT CAN NEVER BE EXTINGUISHED’ - Livy.

Livy, you’ve read it wrong:

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, addressed them, ‘Rulers of the people, and elders! 9 If you are questioning us today about an act of kindness to a cripple and asking us how he was healed, 10 you must know, all of you, and the whole people of Israel, that it is by the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you crucified, and God raised from the dead, by this name and by no other that this man stands before you cured. 11 This is the stone which you, the builders, rejected but which has become the cornerstone. Only in him is there salvation; 12 for of all the names in the world given to men, this is the only one by which we can be saved.’ (Acs 4:8-12)

There’s only One Name by which all can be Saved: Jesus: Yahweh Saves!

…and you’re not the first to attempt a different rendition of the Gospel, but the result is the same:

6 I am astonished that you are so promptly turning away from the one who called you in the grace of Christ and are going over to a different gospel- 7 not that it is another gospel; except that there are trouble-makers among you who are seeking to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we ourselves or an angel from heaven preaches to you a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let God’s curse be on him. 9 I repeat again what we declared before: anyone who preaches to you a gospel other than the one you were first given is to be under God’s curse. (Galatians 1:6-9)

16 They are mischief-makers, grumblers governed only by their own desires, with mouths full of boastful talk, ready to flatter others for gain. 17 But remember, my dear friends, what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 ‘At the final point of time’, they told you, ‘there will be mockers who follow nothing but their own godless desires.’ 19 It is they who cause division, who live according to nature and do not possess the Spirit. (St. Jude 1:16-19)

1 …so you too will have your false teachers, who will insinuate their own disruptive views and, by disowning the Lord who bought them freedom, will bring upon themselves speedy destruction. 2 Many will copy their debauched behaviour, and the Way of Truth will be brought into disrepute on their account. 3 In their greed they will try to make a profit out of you with untrue tales. But the judgement made upon them long ago is not idle, and the destruction awaiting them is for ever on the watch. 4 When angels sinned, God did not spare them: he sent them down into the underworld and consigned them to the dark abyss to be held there until the Judgement… 9 All this shows that the Lord is well able to rescue the good from their trials, and hold the wicked for their punishment until the Day of Judgement, 10 especially those who follow the desires of their corrupt human nature and have no respect for the Lord’s authority. Such self-willed people with no reverence are not afraid of offending against the glorious ones… 12 But these people speak evil of what they do not understand; they are like brute beasts, born only to be caught and killed, and like beasts they will be destroyed, being injured in return for the injuries they have inflicted. 13 Debauchery even by day they make their pleasure; they are unsightly blots, and amuse themselves by their trickery even when they are sharing your table; 14 with their eyes always looking for adultery, people with an insatiable capacity for sinning, they will seduce any but the most stable soul. Where greed is concerned they are at their peak of fitness. They are under a curse. 15 They have left the right path… 17 People like this are dried-up springs, fogs swirling in the wind, and the gloom of darkness is stored up for them. 18 With their high-sounding but empty talk they tempt back people who have scarcely escaped from those who live in error, by playing on the disordered desires of their human nature and by debaucheries. 19 They may promise freedom but are themselves slaves to corruption; because if anyone lets himself be dominated by anything, then he is a slave to it; (2 St. Peter 2:1-22)

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Wisedom, one of the the corporal acts of mercy is to instruct the ignorant–I do not in any way or form think you are unintelligent. merely taken in by certain reletavistic, universalist “tropes” that while sounding nice and inclusive are just a mass of inchoherent, illogical and rationaly-indefensible cliches. You project these upon John Paul the Great only because you absolutly ignore (or perhaps are just unaware) that his ecumenicalism in no way whatsoever denied the uniqueness, the particularity, and yes the validity of truth claims of the Catholic faith above all others.

I really need to think you need to actualy study reason and logic as a serious discipline, especially in regards to religion and spirituality. The late Mortimer Adler’s Truth in Religion is a good start. Peter Kreeft has several books that can help clarify things as well

Per Professor Kreeft:

1. “All religions are the same, deep down.”
That is simply factually untrue. No one ever makes this claim unless he is (1) abysmally ignorant of what the different religions of the world actually teach or (2) intellectually irresponsible in understanding these teachings in the vaguest and woolliest way or (3) morally irresponsible in being indifferent to them. The objector’s implicit assumption is that the distinctive teachings of the world’s religions are unimportant, that the essential business of religion is not truth but something else: transformation of consciousness or sharing and caring or culture and comfort or something of that sort—not conversion but conversation. Christianity teaches many things no other religion teaches, and some of them directly contradict those others. If Christianity isn’t true, why be a Christian?
By Catholic standards, the religions of the world can be ranked by how much truth they teach.

• Catholicism is first, with Orthodoxy equal except for the one issue of papal authority.
• Then comes Protestantism and any “separated brethren” who keep the Christian essentials as found in Scripture.
• Third comes traditional Judaism, which worships the same God but not via Christ.
• Fourth is Islam, greatest of the theistic heresies.
• Fifth, Hinduism, a mystical pantheism;
• Sixth, Buddhism, a pantheism without a theos;
• Seventh, modern Judaism, Unitarianism, Confucianism, Modernism, and secular humanism, none of which have either mysticism or supernatural religion but only ethics;
• Eighth, idolatry; and
• Ninth, Satanism.

To collapse these nine levels is like thinking the earth is flat."
http://www.integratedcatholiclife.org/2012/07/dr-kreeft-the-uniqueness-of-christianity/

Excellent post… though I think you should have routed it to the person whose religion is “LOVE.”

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[zz912]

Couple points:

1. I always welcome polite questions and dialogue. It gives me a chance to learn the Faith even better. If there is a question I don’t know the answer to, I tell them I will research it and get back to them. (And I never worry, the Church has had every question under the sun directed at her, and has answered them all. All I have to do is find the answer.)
2. Be aware of one argumentation style that is common in Protestant circles when having conversations with Catholics. Many will use rapid-fire “attacks” from many different angles. The idea is to overwhelm you, and “prove” the Church is false if you can’t answer all of them fully. They believe if they can prove the Church is wrong on one thing, then the Church is faulty and wrong. What happens is they will make a question, and you will answer it, and probably have a rebuttal and follow-up questions for them about how their denomination seems lacking. They will ignore your rebuttal and questions, and only throw out another. And this will keep repeating. If you find this is happening, then stop the conversation, offer to answer their next question, but only AFTER they have answered yours.

 

[caadam]

Thank you for all the replies! I’m still waiting for my friend to answer; I suspect it’ll be a few days because he has a busy seminary schedule.

On other news, I got something much greater to focus on: Rite of Acceptance! I’ll be at the rite this Sunday, along with three other catechumens and two candidates, so I’m very excited. A little nervous, though; I always get nervous in front of any kind of crowd, congregation or not. But I know it’ll be a wonderful occasion regardless.

 

[BiffRuffle]

Send him, and go yourself to: biblechristiansociety.com/download

It has a large selection of talks on a variety of Catholic teachings, explained in an engaging, and easy to understand way, and will be edifying for, especially as you move closer, with the grace of God, to entering the Catholic Church.

Perhaps, mention to your friend, that a certain talk you heard there (whether prayer to the saints, Eucharist, infant baptism, whatever it is) made a lot of sense for you. Send the talk to your friend, and say something like “Can you listen and explain this to me?” See what he comes up with. There’s no need for YOU to have all the answers right now - it’s perfectly acceptable to say to your friend “I don’t know” but follow it up with “But I will find out, and get back to you.” And then do it. Send him a talk, a book, a website, whatever. But, embrace the opportunity - it is up to the Holy Spirit to convince your friend - it is up to you to evangelize to him, and to yourself.

God bless.

 

[TheDoors]

Good.

One thing I’ve noted is that there are two subjects sure to start an argument.
Politics and Religion.
I try to avoid both.

This is a half-way decent point. Remember, you’re in a dialogue. Stay calm, and don’t be afraid to say “I don’t know, but I’ll find out”. There are many opportunities for hurt feelings in conversations like this, so keep away from heated speech and focus on facts and common ground. We have been given the true faith, and the truth is a lamp. You don’t need to shove it in anyone’s face. Set it up on a platform, and others will come to it for guidence.

 

[peace2u2]

Thank you for all the replies! I’m still waiting for my friend to answer; I suspect it’ll be a few days because he has a busy seminary schedule.

On other news, I got something much greater to focus on: Rite of Acceptance! I’ll be at the rite this Sunday, along with three other catechumens and two candidates, so I’m very excited. A little nervous, though; I always get nervous in front of any kind of crowd, congregation or not. But I know it’ll be a wonderful occasion regardless.

Two weeks ago at Mass, I wept at the Rite of Acceptance of 2 individuals. It was really beautiful and made me love my Catholic faith even more!

I will offer up Sunday’s Mass for God’s Holy Spirit to lead you to that place that fills the fullness of His grace and truth.

May you have joy as you stand before the throne of God in acceptance of the Catholic faith that awaits you.

Peace

 

[jcrichton]

Thank you for all the replies! I’m still waiting for my friend to answer; I suspect it’ll be a few days because he has a busy seminary schedule.

On other news, I got something much greater to focus on: Rite of Acceptance! I’ll be at the rite this Sunday, along with three other catechumens and two candidates, so I’m very excited. A little nervous, though; I always get nervous in front of any kind of crowd, congregation or not. But I know it’ll be a wonderful occasion regardless.

…just remember that you are being integrated into the Church and the Rite is only another form of saying: Welcomed Home!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[benjohnson]

I’d ask you friend to “help me be a good Catholic.”

You’ll notice that I’m LC-MS - but even though I don’t agree with my catholic friends on a lot of issues, I feel that God is served by helping them to build up their faith and not introduce doubt and division especially in this time of transition for you.

In my opinion, you should expect the same from you friend and I snuggest that ask him.