Having second thoughts about Christianity

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He just didn’t word that the best…

“Can you imagine yourself, or anyone you have ever known, willingly suffering a torturous death for the sake of proclaiming something you know to be a hoax?”

NO!

“Remember, these guys knew !”

OH… so they obviously were taking their religion very seriously by dying the way that they did.
 
Like I said… “Martyrs in Christianity that actually saw the Resurrected Jesus”. There’s two requirements to fulfill

From your list… St. Martha is the only one of those from the First Century, and she actually met Jesus. Perhaps you could tell me WHICH TWELVE you’re referring to and how each of them died
"Here is a list of eye-witness martyrs as compiled from numerous sources outside the Bible, the most-famous of which is Foxes’ Christian Martyrs of the World:

Stephen was preaching the gospel in Jerusalem on the Passover after Christ’s crucifixion. He was cast out of the city and stoned to death. About 2,000 Christians suffered martyrdom during this time (about 34 A.D.).

James, the son of Zebedee and the elder brother of John, was killed when Herod Agrippa arrived as governor of Judea. Many early disciples were martyred under Agrippa’s rule, including Timon and Parmenas (about 44 A.D.).

Philip, a disciple from Bethsaida, in Galilee, suffered martyrdom at Heliopolis, in Phrygia. He was scourged, thrown into prison, and afterwards crucified (about 54 A.D.).

Matthew, the tax-collector from Nazareth who wrote a gospel in Hebrew, was preaching in Ethiopia when he suffered martyrdom by the sword (about 60 A.D.).

James, the Brother of Jesus, administered the early church in Jerusalem and was the author of a book in the Bible. At the age of 94 he was beat and stoned, and finally had his brains bashed out with a fuller’s club.

Matthias was the apostle who filled the vacant place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded.

Andrew, the brother of Peter, preached the gospel throughout Asia. On his arrival at Edessa, he was arrested and crucified on a cross, two ends of which were fixed transversely in the ground (thus the term, St. Andrew’s Cross).

Mark was converted to Christianity by Peter, and then transcribed Peter’s account of Jesus in his Gospel. Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria in front of Serapis, their pagan idol.

Peter was condemned to death and crucified at Rome. Jerome holds that Peter was crucified upside down, at his own request, because he said he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord.

Paul suffered in the first persecution under Nero. Because of the converting impact he was having on people in the face of martyrdom, he was led to a private place outside the city where he gave his neck to the sword.

Jude, the brother of James, was commonly called Thaddeus. He was crucified at Edessa in about 72 A.D.

Bartholomew translated the Gospel of Matthew in India. He was cruelly beaten and crucified by idolaters there.

Thomas, called Didymus, preached in Parthia and India. He was thrust through with a spear by pagan priests.

Luke was the author of the Gospel under his name. He traveled with Paul through various countries and was supposedly hanged on an olive tree by idolatrous priests in Greece.

Barnabas, of Cyprus, was killed without many known facts about 73 A.D. Simon, surnamed Zelotes, preached in Africa and Britain, where he was crucified in about 74 A.D.

John, the “beloved disciple,” was the brother of James. Although he suffered great persecution, including imprisonment where he wrote the book of Revelation, he was the only apostle who escaped a violent death."
I’m restricting my focus to First Century works and people alone. I feel like the majority of Catholicism didn’t really gain any history until the Fourth Century!! That’s too far from the source, for a skeptic (like myself) to take seriously in determining the authenticity of certain issues/topics.
Friend a couple of key points.

Your asking more questions than can be answered in this Forums limited space.

Additionally, reading and writting were rare in the First Century because of limited education and more limited writting supplies. In speaking of a New Organization, especially one severly persecuted by the Jews and the Romans, growth would have been steady, but not dramatic.

And when did the dating system turn to AD? Not in the First Century… that much I know.
Right, I was only aware of Paul’s mention of a few people and the group of 500 in one day who saw the Resurrected Jesus. Where do you get thousands over 40 days?
More of the people of Jerusalem at the time of the Ressurection would have recogonized Christ, than Cesar. He was physically VISIBLE in the area for Forty Days, and had to, simply had to encounter thousands of people. He was well known B4 and notorious" after.
I was unaware that ALL of the Apostles saw the Resurrected Jesus and gracefully died for witnessing such an “incredible story in recorded history”. From my understanding, every author of the Gospels has their own set of Twelve Apostles… so I’m not sure how you could know that “ALL” of the Apostles died because they wouldn’t submit to the demands of others.
Never heard such a story b4. Certainly each Apostle had followers [deciples of CHRIST] following the teachings oChrist as taught by… But the number 12 is ficticious.
That’s exactly the point… Martyrs dying for what they BELIEVE to be the Truth, but they could not possibly know either way. My reason for asking for Christian Martyrs is because I expected people to pull out a ton of martyrs from the Fourth Century, like one person did above. These people only have HEARSAY to base their belief on… and then they die because of some hearsay. Pretty crazy if you ask me.
For one to offer to die a brutal death, even on “hear-say” is an incredible acomplishment. At root HAD to be a “bundle” of Faith Beliefs. Ad lets not omit all the miracles taking place
through the Apostles. That too must and does factor in.
 
Originally Posted by Bob4BVM
Can you imagine yourself, or anyone you have ever known, willingly suffering a >torturous death for the sake of proclaiming something you know to be a hoax ? >Remember, these guys knew !
If you want verification of claims on this site, you better not hold your breath.😉

The old “no one would die for a lie” is no evidence that the persons died for truth either.
Sincere belief, does not equal correct belief
 
Originally Posted by Bob4BVM
Can you imagine yourself, or anyone you have ever known, willingly suffering a >torturous death for the sake of proclaiming something you know to be a hoax ? >Remember, these guys knew !
NO, good grief, am I that bad a communicator ?
I meant they were there, they knew Christ, they were in a position to know the truth–that he was resurrected. If they had not seen Him alive after the Crucifixion, why would they willingly suffer torture defending the Resurrection as fact ? ! ?
 
Like I said… "
Personally, I’m restricting my focus to First Century works and people alone. I feel like the majority of Catholicism didn’t really gain any history until the Fourth Century!! That’s too far from the source, for a skeptic (like myself) to take seriously in determining the authenticity of certain issues/topics.

And when did the dating system turn to AD? Not in the First Century… that much I know.

Right, I was only aware of Paul’s mention of a few people and the group of 500 in one day who saw the Resurrected Jesus. Where do you get thousands over 40 days?

I was unaware that ALL of the Apostles saw the Resurrected Jesus and gracefully died for witnessing such an “incredible story in recorded history”. From my understanding, every author of the Gospels has their own set of Twelve Apostles… so I’m not sure how you could know that “ALL” of the Apostles died because they wouldn’t submit to the demands of others.

Perhaps you could tell me WHICH TWELVE you’re referring to and how each of them died.

That’s exactly the point… Martyrs dying for what they BELIEVE to be the Truth, but they could not possibly know either way. My reason for asking for Christian Martyrs is because I expected people to pull out a ton of martyrs from the Fourth Century, like one person did above. These people only have HEARSAY to base their belief on… and then they die because of some hearsay. Pretty crazy if you ask me.

?? their own set of Twelve Apostles ??
What Bible are you reading !
Skip it, from the religious perspective, read some secular ancient history !
Want to read abound HUNDREDS, Thousands of people who died in thos centuries for defense of their faith ? Believe it or not it is there in non-biblical historical works, many ancient. Here are a few more readable modern ones, where you can find the non-religious perspective of the facts of early Christian martyrdom:

History of Rome; Michael Grant , ISBN 0-684-15986-4
Rome in Africa; Susan Raven, ISBN 0-415-08150-5
Fall of the Roman Empire; Peter Heather, ISBN 978-0-19-532541-6
Victor of Vita: History of the Vandal Persucution; John Moorhead, ISBN 0-85323-127-3
So PLEASE read what others have to say, then come back and let’s discuss.
And yes, there are 12 well-authenticated Apostles ! 🙂
 
Like I said… "Martyrs in Christianity that actually saw

Personally, I’m restricting my focus to First Century works and people alone. I feel like the majority of Catholicism didn’t really gain any history until the Fourth Century!! That’s too far from the source, for a skeptic (like myself) to take seriously in determining the authenticity of certain issues/topics.

I was unaware that ALL of the Apostles saw the Resurrected Jesus and gracefully died for witnessing such an “incredible story in recorded history”. From my understanding, every author of the Gospels has their own set of Twelve Apostles… so I’m not sure how you could know that “ALL” of the Apostles died because they wouldn’t submit to the demands of others.

Perhaps you could tell me WHICH TWELVE you’re referring to and how each of them died.

That’s exactly the point… Martyrs dying for what they BELIEVE to be the Truth, but they could not possibly know either way. My reason for asking for Christian Martyrs is because I expected people to pull out a ton of martyrs from the Fourth Century, like one person did above. These people only have HEARSAY to base their belief on… and then they die because of some hearsay. Pretty crazy if you ask me. about Truth!
?? their own set of Twelve Apostles ??
What Bible are you reading !
Skip it already !!!, from the religious perspective, read some secular ancient history !
Want to read abound HUNDREDS, Thousands of people who died in those centuries for defense of their faith ? Believe it or not it is there in non-biblical historical works, many ancient. Here are a few more readable modern ones, where you can find the non-religious perspective of the facts of early Christian martyrdom:

History of Rome; Michael Grant , ISBN 0-684-15986-4
Rome in Africa; Susan Raven, ISBN 0-415-08150-5
Fall of the Roman Empire; Peter Heather, ISBN 978-0-19-532541-6
Victor of Vita: History of the Vandal Persucution; John Moorhead, ISBN 0-85323-127-3

So PLEASE read what others have to say, then come back and let’s discuss.
And yes, there WERE 12 well-authenticated Apostles ! 🙂
Any credible historian will agree to that !
 
=Bob4BVM;6268180]?? their own set of Twelve Apostles ??
What Bible are you reading !
Skip it already !!!, from the religious perspective, read some secular ancient history !
Want to read abound HUNDREDS, Thousands of people who died in those centuries for defense of their faith ? Believe it or not it is there in non-biblical historical works, many ancient. Here are a few more readable modern ones, where you can find the non-religious perspective of the facts of early Christian martyrdom:
History of Rome; Michael Grant , ISBN 0-684-15986-4
Rome in Africa; Susan Raven, ISBN 0-415-08150-5
Fall of the Roman Empire; Peter Heather, ISBN 978-0-19-532541-6
Victor of Vita: History of the Vandal Persucution; John Moorhead, ISBN 0-85323-127-3
So PLEASE read what others have to say, then come back and let’s discuss.
And yes, there WERE 12 well-authenticated Apostles ! 🙂
Any credible historian will agree to that !
***It would appear that our friend is far more interested in argument than searching for truth.

I gave him “identical” information,listed the Martyrs by name and showed how and when they died as he requested.

Your response is excellnt! Don’t hold your breath that i’ll make a difference:o ***
 
NO, good grief, am I that bad a communicator ?
I meant they were there, they knew Christ, they were in a position to know the truth–that he was resurrected. If they had not seen Him alive after the Crucifixion, why would they willingly suffer torture defending the Resurrection as fact ? ! ?
Because they accepted Jesus’ message as truth… and also as the only solution the the Roman empire.

???

Non-resistance to evil by force was Jesus’ message. Could have just been a mindset to save the world… and not much more? 🤷
?? their own set of Twelve Apostles ??
What Bible are you reading !

And yes, there WERE 12 well-authenticated Apostles ! 🙂
Any credible historian will agree to that !
See here…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_%28Christian%29#The_Twelve_Apostles

If all the authors of the biblical narratives had the same teacher… Paul… then shouldn’t they have had the same names for these “12 well-authenticated Apostles”?
History of Rome; Michael Grant , ISBN 0-684-15986-4
Rome in Africa; Susan Raven, ISBN 0-415-08150-5
Fall of the Roman Empire; Peter Heather, ISBN 978-0-19-532541-6
Victor of Vita: History of the Vandal Persucution; John Moorhead, ISBN 0-85323-127-3
Nice. Will look into them.

However, I’m not expecting too many martyrs to be listed in the First Century.

I’ve only come up with three so far… St. Paul, St. Peter, & St. Martha.

The serious persecution didn’t seem to happen until the Third Century.

My whole dislike is how people automatically link “the thousands who saw the Resurrection of Jesus” to the “thousands of Christian martyrs [200~300 years after Jesus’ death]”. It’s disingenuous if you ask me.

I have a feeling that if thousands truly witnessed Jesus flying around in the sky… the reaction of the people would have caused everyone to convert to Christianity within a century!!! There would have been people sacrificing themselves left and right, and the “demons” of Rome would’ve been conquered almost overnight.
 
NO, good grief, am I that bad a communicator ?
I meant they were there, they knew Christ, they were in a position to know the truth–that he was resurrected. If they had not seen Him alive after the Crucifixion, why would they willingly suffer torture defending the Resurrection as fact ? ! ?
Why are you assumng that the word of those who saw Christ were not taken as truth and there was doubt in the minds of all who followed that did not see him in the flesh? That’s an unwarranted assumption. Do you believe only what you have personally witnessed? You don’t take anybody’s word for anything?
 
=grndslm;6271086]Because they accepted Jesus’ message as truth… and also as the only solution the the Roman empire.
Non-resistance to evil by force was Jesus’ message. Could have just been a mindset to save the world… and not much more? 🤷

Our Lord’s message might better be understood as “Love thy neighbor as thyself.”***

See here…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_%28Christian%29#The_Twelve_Apostles
If all the authors of the biblical narratives had the same teacher… Paul… then shouldn’t they have had the same names for these “12 well-authenticated Apostles”?
Paul was neither the first nor the only Teacher. It was common in those days for people to have more than one name. Jude /Thadias for example. If you’d care to share what you understand to be in error, let me know, and I’ll see if I can explain it?
However, I’m not expecting too many martyrs to be listed in the First Century.[QOTE]
I’ve only come up with three so far… St. Paul, St. Peter, & St. Martha.
SURPRISE!
Famous Martyrs of the First Century
"Here is a list of eye-witness martyrs as compiled from numerous sources outside the Bible, the most-famous of which is Foxes’ Christian Martyrs of the World:
Stephen was preaching the gospel in Jerusalem on the Passover after Christ’s crucifixion. He was cast out of the city and stoned to death. About 2,000 Christians suffered martyrdom during this time (about 34 A.D.).
James, the son of Zebedee and the elder brother of John, was killed when Herod Agrippa arrived as governor of Judea. Many early disciples were martyred under Agrippa’s rule, including Timon and Parmenas (about 44 A.D.).
Philip, a disciple from Bethsaida, in Galilee, suffered martyrdom at Heliopolis, in Phrygia. He was scourged, thrown into prison, and afterwards crucified (about 54 A.D.).
Matthew, the tax-collector from Nazareth who wrote a gospel in Hebrew, was preaching in Ethiopia when he suffered martyrdom by the sword (about 60 A.D.).
James, the Brother of Jesus, administered the early church in Jerusalem and was the author of a book in the Bible. At the age of 94 he was beat and stoned, and finally had his brains bashed out with a fuller’s club.
Matthias was the apostle who filled the vacant place of Judas. He was stoned at Jerusalem and then beheaded.
Andrew, the brother of Peter, preached the gospel throughout Asia. On his arrival at Edessa, he was arrested and crucified on a cross, two ends of which were fixed transversely in the ground (thus the term, St. Andrew’s Cross).
Mark was converted to Christianity by Peter, and then transcribed Peter’s account of Jesus in his Gospel. Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria in front of Serapis, their pagan idol.
Peter was condemned to death and crucified at Rome. Jerome holds that Peter was crucified upside down, at his own request, because he said he was unworthy to be crucified in the same manner as his Lord.
Paul suffered in the first persecution under Nero. Because of the converting impact he was having on people in the face of martyrdom, he was led to a private place outside the city where he gave his neck to the sword.
Jude, the brother of James, was commonly called Thaddeus. He was crucified at Edessa in about 72 A.D.
Bartholomew translated the Gospel of Matthew in India. He was cruelly beaten and crucified by idolaters there.
Thomas, called Didymus, preached in Parthia and India. He was thrust through with a spear by pagan priests.
Luke was the author of the Gospel under his name. He traveled with Paul through various countries and was supposedly hanged on an olive tree by idolatrous priests in Greece.
Barnabas, of Cyprus, was killed without many known facts about 73 A.D. Simon, surnamed Zelotes, preached in Africa and Britain, where he was crucified in about 74 A.D.
John, the “beloved disciple,” was the brother of James. Although he suffered great persecution, including imprisonment where he wrote the book of Revelation, he was the only apostle who escaped a violent death."
The serious persecution didn’t seem to happen until the Third Century.
My whole dislike is how people automatically link “the thousands who saw the Resurrection of Jesus” to the “thousands of Christian martyrs [200~300 years after Jesus’ death]”. It’s disingenuous if you ask me.
Do you still feel that way?
I have a feeling that if thousands truly witnessed Jesus flying around in the sky… the reaction of the people would have caused everyone to convert to Christianity
within a century!!! There would have been people sacrificing themselves left and right, and the “demons” of Rome would’ve been conquered almost overnight.

Well, may be NOT “everyone” but a GREAT MANY DID!

Acts 2: 37"Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. [Catholic Holy Communion!] [43] And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. [47] praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved. 👍
 

Our Lord’s message might better be understood as “Love thy neighbor as thyself.”***

See here…
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostle_%28Christian%29#The_Twelve_Apostles

Paul was neither the first nor the only Teacher. It was common in those days for people to have more than one name. Jude /Thadias for example. If you’d care to share what you understand to be in error, let me know, and I’ll see if I can explain it?
However, I’m not expecting too many martyrs to be listed in the First Century.[QOTE]
 
Why are you assumng that the word of those who saw Christ were not taken as truth and there was doubt in the minds of all who followed that did not see him in the flesh? That’s an unwarranted assumption. Do you believe only what you have personally witnessed? You don’t take anybody’s word for anything?
Sheesh !! Forgive me !! I AM bad with words !
I was not saying that at all.
I was trying to make the point that since the Apostles lived with and knew Christ, and saw him after the Resurrection, and later suffered greatly proclaiming that He rose from the dead, that this fact set Christianity uniquely apart from all other beliefs where members may be willing to suffer for what they believe to be true.
The Apostles not only BELIEVED, were in the position to KNOW FOR SURE whether what they were proclaiming was true !
 
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