Having sex outside of marriage

[Dwyer]

The simple fact is that unless you have SEEN, with your own eyes, this lady having intercourse with someone who is not her spouse (and not just heard it secondhand from someone else), you aren’t in a position to judge her soul or her actions. If your priest feels that she needs to be counseled regarding possible scandal to the faithful, that’s his job and his prerogative alone.

I think this sort of statement is an overstatement of what that passage from the Bible means.

In fact, it is one of the most misinterpreted passages of Scripture, and you’ll often hear folks who are committing bad acts (like Sean Hannity did when he told off that Priest on his Fox News program and defended the use of contraception by Catholics) use this passage from the Bible to shield themselves from any sort of criticism.

I remember watching the Journey Home, and Marcus Grodi had a man from the Diocese of Peoria, Illinois, who was the Director of Catechesis for the diocese.

He briefly talked about this passage, and said judging ACTIONS is OK, but judging motives is not OK.

I think the motive part means that you personally cannot judge that the person is going to hell because of the sin.

That said, I think that you would have to have heard this woman personally say that she was having sex with the man she isn’t married to, or the person informing you about this matter said she was told by the Lector herself.

Don’t rely on any statement by a third person because that could just be idle gossip (e.g., Well, I heard it from Mr. Smith, who heard it from Mrs. Jones, etc.).

Don’t forget that one of the chief **Spiritual Works of Mercy **is to Admonish the Sinner.

From My Catholic Faith (pub. by My Mission House, 1958) by Bishop Louis Laravoire Morrow, Doctor of Systematic Theology:

Whenever we think our words may have a good effect, we should not hesitate to admonish the erring prudently.

Those in authority, such as parents and teachers, are bound to admonish those under them of their faults, even if in doing so they bring trouble upon themselves.

Good example is another example of admonition.

"In admonishing sinners we must do so with gentleness and charity.

Otherwise we might only produce results the opposite of what we wish.

It would be wrong, if with a little trouble we could save a sinner from sin, did we not speak to save him;

It would, moreover be a loss of great grace for ourselves.

“He who causes a sinner to be brought back from his misguided way, will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins.” (James: 5:20)

p. 191

But statements like the following are not the correct interpretation of the passage based on what I’ve seen on EWTN:

Who are you to judge this woman? Are you without sin yourself? Her alleged sex life is your business …HOW?

That is one of the passages from the Bible that the secular world relishes and you often hear it is interpreted by news columnists, talk show hosts, and others etc., as insulating themselves from any sort of Christian moral criticism.

That is not how Catholic Scripture Scholars interpret that passage.

 

[Dwyer]

And just to follow up on that, Admonishing the Sinner is just that, talking to** the sinner **in private and admonishing them.

The Catechesis Director from Peoria, Illinois, said the general rule is to admonish the sinner 3 times in private, and then bring the Church into it (i.e., tell the Priest).

However, given the alleged sinner’s church duties, this is probably an exception to the general rule and you should go directly to the Priest, since she is handling the Host.

 

[Annie_B]

Someone is going to be ashamed if they say something to the priest without proof and it turns out to NOT be true.

Annie

 

[Nickkname]

Hello,

There is a lady in our church that is a Lector and a Eucharist Minister. She is in the middle of a divorce and is also having sex with a member in the church. Is this ok? Should she be called down from the positions I mentioned above? Should I talk to the priest about this and inform him of what is going on? I mean she gives out Holy Communion! and is a Lector! Is she sinning?

Thank you

Talk to the priest about this and inform him of what is going on. And be sure to pray for this woman.

 

[PhyllisA]

If there is a public scandal about the behavior going on, then of course the EEM should be removed. If it is based solely on rumor, this is not grounds for removal.

That being so, it seems there is a large rush to assume the OP is a scandal monger carrying a false tale.

Is this not of itself a rush to judgment not knowing the facts of the story.

Didn’t Christ say something about beams and splinters in the eye?

Ironic isn’t it to see that the people speaking of not casting the first stone already have thrown several?

If there is a public scandal about the behavior going on, then of course the EEM should be removed.

With all do respect, but when does someone who may be in a state of sin have to come to the point of a “scandal” to be corrected in their behavior and where they stand with the church?
Isn’t there a scripture, “If your brother is in a state of sin, go to him and tell him {or correct him}” ?

I don’t think you’re really looking @ the real picture here, if someone is divorced and romantically involved with someone, they are basically considered ex-communicated.

I know, myself, if i knew someone was in a serious state of sin and possibly considered ex-communicated, i know for sure i wouldn’t want to chose them for a Communicant.

If this is a real issue, i understand the poster that there’s more issues to a situation than one thinks.

“If you want peace, work for justice.” Paul 6

Phyllis @};-

 

[Katie1723]

Unless you are a witness to their “dalliances” (in which case YOU need confession), you need to mind your own business. I would bet that others may suspect what is going on as well as the priest. But unless you have pictures or are a witness to the alleged indiscretions, you need to myob.
Kathy

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

There is simply not enough information posted by the OP to make a determination.

It is not sinful to seek a divorce, necessarily. Under most circumstances, a person going through a divorce is allowed to receive the Eucharist, participate in public ministries, be a godparent, etc. It is only when an individual remarries without seekig a decree of nullity that the individual is barred from receiving sacraments. Thoese people who do so are **not **excommunicated.

My evidence:
http://www.familyministries.org/resources/article.asp?c_id=7&t_id=7&article_id=53
http://www.batemancatholic.org/divorce.htm
http://www.foryourmarriage.org/interior_template.asp?id=20398794

Without proof that a person is committing sin and is scandalizing the congregation through public ministry, there is only tale-bearing. Merely going to the priest without such proof is gossip. There is the Eighth and Tenth Commandment to consider.This is what the CCC and USCCB have to say about detraction and calumny:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art8.htm
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt1.htm#2112
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect2chpt2art10.htm

I would suggest to the OP that if she has such proof, that she deliver it swiftly and discreetly to his or her pastor (no running around announcing that one is going, no gloating or telling of the event after). Without such proof, I would suggest to the OP that she remain quiet on the matter.

For those of you who have made the assumption that a divorced person is excommunicated, I suggest the book, Annulment: The Wedding That Was by Michael Foster. Fr. Foster fully covers divorce and the Church, as well as decrees of nullity.

I only hope we are not being baited, as the OP in question has not returned as yet.

You junior members might well learn to use the “Search” feature on CAF, as it is quite useful. These are frequent topics on CAF, and there are many other threads about them.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

If there is a public scandal about the behavior going on, then of course the EEM should be removed. If it is based solely on rumor, this is not grounds for removal.

That being so, it seems there is a large rush to assume the OP is a scandal monger carrying a false tale.

Is this not of itself a rush to judgment not knowing the facts of the story.

Didn’t Christ say something about beams and splinters in the eye?

Ironic isn’t it to see that the people speaking of not casting the first stone already have thrown several?
The OP asked for advice. People are giving it to her.

I think she met it quite clear how it is her business - this woman is in a respected position in the parish. It is more than reasonable that she should keep from a sinful life. And she needs real proof before she can even think of going to her pastor, not conjecture or hearsay.

As to the whole judging thing, there is a difference between committing one sin and living a life of unrepentant sin. And when scandal is also included, then there is reason for concern. How did you determine this from the OP’s posting? I don’t see anything of the sort.

And honestly I do not see her saying this woman is evil or judging her as a person at all. Simply, she is asking about this woman’s actions. There is nothing wrong with that.Again, where is the proof? In order to accuse of such an action, there needs to be evidence. You simply assume evidence.

 

[whatevergirl]

I used to be an EEM back in my parish in PA, before we moved–and it comes with a huge responsibility. Being able to serve God in that manner is beyond humbling, and I would imagine the woman the OP speaks of, might be grappling with some issues with it, as well. Well, as Christians we should try to always give people the benefit of the doubt.

It might not be a bad idea to mention something to the priest…that this is something that is being rumored, and he should speak with her privately, and see if there is any truth in it. I don’t believe in getting into people’s business, but I also believe that if we know that something is immoral, we should speak up. This does not mean to draw attention to this person, or ostracize her in any way…it means to have a priest speak with her kindly, and see if there is truth in it. This is between her and God, and I wouldn’t press beyond bringing my concern to the parish priest.

Maybe even anonymously, if you do not want to bring attention to yourself, or others. I don’t believe in starting rumors, or gossiping–bringing things like this to a priest’s attention (if you are near 100% certain, however) would be the best route.

I will keep this EEM in my prayers, too.

 

[mercygate]

I think she met it quite clear how it is her business - this woman is in a respected position in the parish. It is more than reasonable that she should keep from a sinful life.

As to the whole judging thing, there is a difference between committing one sin and living a life of unrepentant sin. And when scandal is also included, then there is reason for concern.

And honestly I do not see her saying this woman is evil or judging her as a person at all. Simply, she is asking about this woman’s actions. There is nothing wrong with that.

The regs require persons in public ministry to be living in accord with the teachings of the Church. However, unless this person is openly known to be living in a way contrary to the precepts of the faith, and thereby causing scandal to the faithful, there is not much anybody can do about it.

One thing our parish does is to re-certifiy people about every 5 years. The question is asked about things like marriages . . . The pastor came in about 8 years ago, and inherited a cadre of EMHCs and readers whose resume’s were less than optimal. That’s how he handled it. Some just faded off the schedule; some seem to have ignored the question about upholding all the teachings of the Church (since I have had interesting conversations about the need for Confession, human embryonic stem cell research, contraception and IVF with a couple of these people).

But it’s not my job to correct the problem. When I mentioned some of my conversations with the liturgical coordinator, she told me about the gentle process of cleaning house.

 

[turtle18]

It might be a good idea to pray for her. I saw a Eucharistic minister pinching and slapping her child all through Mass and sneering at her husband. The woman was mad at their behavior and completely oblivious to the fact that she was creating more of a disruption with her behavior than her child and husband were. I was shocked but all you can do in a situation like that is pray for him/her. She was so angry and making no attempt to quash her anger. And I kept thinking, she is going to be handing out the Body of Christ?

Unless I know direct knowledge of the situation, I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. It’s very hard to do that sometimes, though.

I try to receive from the Priest. But it’s not always possible.

 

[SwizzleStick]

There is a lady in our church that is a Lector and a Eucharist Minister. She is in the middle of a divorce and is also having sex with a member in the church. Is this ok? Should she be called down from the positions I mentioned above? Should I talk to the priest about this and inform him of what is going on? I mean she gives out Holy Communion! and is a Lector! Is she sinning?

This is a tough one, but I’ll offer my thoughts.

First, I think you should pray for the lady. Second, how can you be certain of what the lady is/is not doing? Third, if you are CERTAIN that she is behaving in the manner you describe because she talks openly about it, then perhaps you should discreetly inform the pastor of your church and let him handle the scandal aspect. Before doing so, though, you should pray and pray some more to try to discern if scandal is actually happening. If the lady is the subject of gossip among the congregation because she freely shares information, then I guess scandal could be occurring, but that is what gives me pause. It might just be gossip and slander and not her sin at all. I think you need to pray and think very carefully on this so as to act in a charitable, but just manner.

 

[BamaRider]

http://bestsmileys.com/eating1/16.gif

 

[Reasonand_faith]

SHE IS IN SIN.

1. She is in the middle of a divorce, therefore she is STILL married. Until divorce is legally pronounced by civil law you are still married!
2. After the law portion is done, there is the divine (i know sound strange to place God in second but there is a reason for that); ask permision to end this marriage and ask for forgivness. I ve read somehwere many year ago, that it should resemble to a mourning: a YEAR without any form of romantic or dating life.

Yes the ministry should be aware of this, as not only is she lying and been an hyporcrit to her community by doing the opposite of what she preach, but make it OK to sin and set a very bad example to everyone to follow.

 

[St_Gabriel]

Not an easy thing to do. Pray first, then go talk to her directly first and bring a friend. Be gentle. (She may not aware she is causing a scandal and there may be a shortage of ministers). Then pray and wait. If no change, then speak with your priest.

And remember we are all sinners. That’s why we have the sacrament of reconcilliation. You might want to point her into that direction.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

Not an easy thing to do. Pray first, then go talk to her directly first and bring a friend. Be gentle. (She may not aware she is causing a scandal and there may be a shortage of ministers). Then pray and wait. If no change, then speak with your priest.

And remember we are all sinners. That’s why we have the sacrament of reconcilliation. You might want to point her into that direction.

This sounds like good advice to me. Are you guys already friends? If not it might be odd that you would ask how things are going out of the blue, but still anyone going through a divorce might welcome the chance to talk, especially if your attitude is just asking how things are going.
I wish there was some literature that made it very clear about what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior as a practicing catholic. It might be nice to distribute that at inital meetings for certain ministries.

 

[Reasonand_faith]

Yes do as Gabriel say: LIE to protect a sinner who WELL know that what she is doing. (insert raise of eye brown here); also that ommision is a LIE.

Let me explain:

You have a person who well know that she is a liar and an hypocrite as she is present herself to the community and tell that community to follow the commands, while not even following them herself.
You on the other hand, knows about it and do nothing? So you are lying by ommision and be an hypocrite yourself to your community and to the truth by keeping it to yourself and not doing anything.

What you should really do is the TRUE Christian way: GO to THAT person, tell her that you are aware and that she should step down immediately form her position, stop sinning, ask forgiveness to GOD and her husband, and repent.
If she refuse, she therefore is only present to her position to gain something. The whole community should therefore be made aware .

Please, do not tell me that a SINGLE Christian doesn’t know that rule especially with the position she occupy? So the theory of “she might not know”…please! let’s stop been ostrich here and deal with situation head on!

NO, DO NOT LIE, say it. EVEN if there is a “shortage”, you will NOT lie for an "administrative " reason or any other. All you really need is God and the good book, the rest is superficial.

 

[rpp]

Who are you to judge this woman? Are you without sin yourself? Her alleged sex life if your business …HOW?

This was not a very kind way of welcoming a new member.

It is also not correct on many levels.

First, it seems clear that you do not understand what the sin of “judgment” is. It is not seeing someone commit a sin, rather it is determining the state of a person’s soul and condemning them to Hell.

Next, you fail to understand that we are all morally obligated to correct the sinner. In fact, failing to correct a sinner may itself be a sin of inaction.

Third, the OP described this person as one in a public ministry and this is in a position to set an example.

Finally and most importantly, we are talking about the worthiness of someone who is handling the the precious Body and Blood of Jesus. Such a person **must **be worthy to receive.

Canon law states that a person in manifest grave sin must be denied Holy Communion lest they receive it unworthily and further endanger their souls. Such a person should, by extension, not handle Holy Communion either.

 

[CuriousInIL]

I have never before written this sort of a response, but let me give it a shot.

Has no one else realized that the OP has a single post, three days ago, with no follow-up whatsoever?

I think without any further contributions by the OP, this thread should just die away.

One point I do feel compelled to make. Without any further information, is anyone here ***certain ***that the women referenced by the OP is currently in a state of sin? Of course not, because one can never know this. Especially so here because of how little info there is. It is quite possible that what is written in the OP is all correct but that the woman at issue knows of her own sins and has sought confession and absolution.

If all the sinners were prohibited from being Lectors or EMHCs (she cannot be a Eucharistic Minister) churches would be silent and with unending lines waiting in vain for someone to distribute the Eucharist.

 

[mercygate]

I have never before written this sort of a response, but let me give it a shot.

Has no one else realized that the OP has a single post, three days ago, with no follow-up whatsoever?

I think without any further contributions by the OP, this thread should just die away.

One point I do feel compelled to make. Without any further information, is anyone here ***certain ***that the women referenced by the OP is currently in a state of sin? Of course not, because one can never know this. Especially so here because of how little info there is. It is quite possible that what is written in the OP is all correct but that the woman at issue knows of her own sins and has sought confession and absolution.

If all the sinners were prohibited from being Lectors or EMHCs (she cannot be a Eucharistic Minister) churches would be silent and with unending lines waiting in vain for someone to distribute the Eucharist.

Aside from the conspicuous absence of the OP, I disagree with the thrust of your statement. I know some of our EMHCs and readers have “creative” views about the faith, but most in my parish are deeply committed to the faith; they are knowledgeable and definitely living exemplary lives insofar as anybody can tell. The OP was concerned about scandal, not JUST the condition of the person’s soul. And scandal is a very real issue – as any Catholic who has been around since 2002 can attest.