Having some difficulty with accepting the Brown Scapular

[LifeInSunshine]

Here’s another huge difficulty that I have with the brown scapular. According to the article I posted earlier by Fr. McGilloway, it states *“First of all, if a Catholic chooses to wear the Brown Scapular, day in and day out, it should be an outward sign of his or her trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary.” *

That in itself brings out the red flag. Who are we suppose to trust for every detail of our salvation? Jesus Christ alone, who died on the cross to pay for our penalty for our sins. To wear something as a sign of trust for someone other than Christ for any part of salvation undermines Him. The brown scapular is an attempt by someone (I believe it to be Satan) to take away our focus from Christ and put it on Mary, who is powerless in our salvation.

Fair Lady, I understand your concern, but that is not what is meant by “trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary.” Catholicism does not teach us to trust in Mary for salvation, because as you said, only Christ can save us. What is meant by trust in Mary is that she will lead us, if we prayerfully ask her, deeper into the heart and knowledge of Christ. Mary works solely for the Lord to bring His people to Him. Also meant by “trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary” is that we can ask her to pray for us and trust that she will pray to the Lord for us. That is all.

 

[budgie2]

Hi all! I am currently in the process of converting to Catholicism (previously Protestant) and am having a wonderful time learning Church teachings. Most teachings I am able to prayerfully accept, but the only one that I am seriously confused about is the use of the Brown Scapular. From what I’ve been reading online, the Brown Scapular was given to a member of the Church by Mary, with her promise that she would save its devout wearers from purgatory early.
What bothers/concerns me about the scapular is this: how can we be assured heaven by wearing a garment, albeit a blessed one? I know that the scapular is not supposed to be viewed as a magical object, but how can it not be when we are granted a lessened stay in Purgatory for wearing it?
I really don’t mean to be offensive on the subject, I’m just confused!
Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated

Sources I’m reading from:
sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php

I didn’t used to like the scapular and thought it was Catholic superstition although I was brought up Catholic. However, my mum gave me one, and when I was pregnant I decided to wear it. I found it a comfort and thought Mary was helping me through my pregnancy. So I think there is something in the scapular but mine broke so I don’t wear it now. You’re not forced to wear one but some people find them a comfort during certain periods of their lives. You’re also meant to kiss it.

 

[abenassi]

Who are we suppose to trust for every detail of our salvation? Jesus Christ alone, who died on the cross to pay for our penalty for our sins. To wear something as a sign of trust for someone other than Christ for any part of salvation undermines Him. The brown scapular is an attempt by someone (I believe it to be Satan) to take away our focus from Christ and put it on Mary, who is powerless in our salvation.

You are denying the communion of saints, which is part of the creed, even the apostles creed. We receive salvation through grace, and that grace is in and through the entire body of Christ, and we ourselves have a part in our own salvation (Phil. 2:12) as well as other people’s (interceding for one another, 1Tim 2:1-4). Mary is alive an intercedes for us before the throne of God, thus she has a part in our salvation.

Have you ever considered that the church may not be infallible in its doctrines/dogmas/traditions?

No, because its an undeniable historical fact that the Catholic Church was the Church founded by Christ, and if they are not supernaturally prevented from teaching error, then Jesus lied when he said he was sending the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. But since we know Jesus did not lie, and cannot lie, then I trust the Church he founded, the Church he gave authority to, the Church with all of his authority with my whole being, as if the Church were Jesus Christ himself.

 

[Fair_Lady]

What is meant by trust in Mary is that she will lead us, if we prayerfully ask her, deeper into the heart and knowledge of Christ. Mary works solely for the Lord to bring His people to Him.

LifeinSunshine, what you are describing here is the role and work of the Holy Spirit. We don’t find anything in the Bible that attributes those things to Mary as a saint who has gone on before us. This is some of what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit and how He leads and guides us:

John 16:13 – 14 (New King James Version)
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

1 Corinthians: (New King James Version)

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

John 14:26 NIV) But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

We must not look to or attribute anything to Mary or anyone else that is God’s alone. When we are in Christ, we have the honor and the privilege of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us. He helps us in our times of trouble and in our infirmities. For He prays for us when we don’t even know how to pray.

Romans 8:26 (King James Version)
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

We can count on the Spirit of God. How wonderful that is! And it does not matter what we are wearing - He is with us, loves us, and knows our needs like no one else.

 

[Dorothy]

Hi all! I am currently in the process of converting to Catholicism (previously Protestant) and am having a wonderful time learning Church teachings. Most teachings I am able to prayerfully accept, but the only one that I am seriously confused about is the use of the Brown Scapular. From what I’ve been reading online, the Brown Scapular was given to a member of the Church by Mary, with her promise that she would save its devout wearers from purgatory early.
What bothers/concerns me about the scapular is this: how can we be assured heaven by wearing a garment, albeit a blessed one? I know that the scapular is not supposed to be viewed as a magical object, but how can it not be when we are granted a lessened stay in Purgatory for wearing it?
I really don’t mean to be offensive on the subject, I’m just confused!
Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated

Sources I’m reading from:
sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php

There are two branches to the Carmelite Order, the Calced and the Discalced Carmelites. In the year 2000, a joint statement was made by both branches to clarify about the sacramental, the Brown Scapular.

In times past the Brown Scapular has been, and in some cases still is, presented in an over-simplified way. In this joint statement it is explained that a person who wishes to be invested in the Brown Scapular needs to have an attitude of prayer and receives the Sacraments frequently. It is an affiliation with the Carmelite Order.

Here is a short quote for the “Pastoral Comments on the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel by the North American Carmelite Provincials” :

"Private revelation can neither add to nor detract from the Church’s deposit of faith. Therefore, the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel echoes the promise of Divine revelation ‘The one who holds out to the end is the one who will see salvation.’ (Matthew 24:13) and “Remain faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life” (Revelation 2:10)

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Dorothy]

LifeinSunshine, what you are describing here is the role and work of the Holy Spirit. We don’t find anything in the Bible that attributes those things to Mary as a saint who has gone on before us. This is some of what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit and how He leads and guides us:

John 16:13 – 14 (New King James Version)
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

1 Corinthians: (New King James Version)

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the LORD that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

John 14:26 NIV) But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

We must not look to or attribute anything to Mary or anyone else that is God’s alone. When we are in Christ, we have the honor and the privilege of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us. He helps us in our times of trouble and in our infirmities. For He prays for us when we don’t even know how to pray.

Romans 8:26 (King James Version)
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

We can count on the Spirit of God. How wonderful that is! And it does not matter what we are wearing - He is with us, loves us, and knows our needs like no one else.

Because you are a Protestant I can understand your not being clear about what Catholics are informed about. It is Catholic teaching that Mary has a special role, due to her being privileged to being conceived without original sin, and continued in that sinlessness. Mary is the perfect disciple, and is also called the new Eve.

It is not right for you to try to teach otherwise to a Catholic who is sincerely trying to understand.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Fair_Lady]

Mary is alive an intercedes for us before the throne of God, thus she has a part in our salvation.

I haven’t found anything in scripture that would suggest that. Anything along that line in scripture attributes intercession on our behalf to the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ:

. . . the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know
what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes
for us with groans that words cannot express.
(Romans 8:26)

Romans 8:34 (King James Version)
34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Hebrews 7:25 (King James Version)

25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hebrews 9:24 (King James Version)

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

and if they are not supernaturally prevented from teaching error, then Jesus lied when he said he was sending the Holy Spirit to guide them into all truth. But since we know Jesus did not lie, and cannot lie, then I trust the Church he founded, the Church he gave authority to, the Church with all of his authority with my whole being, as if the Church were Jesus Christ himself.

There is no doubt that God is doing His part through the Holy Spirit. But mankind is fallible and we do not always follow Him in obedience. That is why we must always compare what our teachers and leaders are saying to the Word of God. Man attributes all the things being said about Mary in here to Mary. The Bible says they are attributed to God. Who is right?

 

[Dorothy]

Fair Lady,

Catholics believe, as it says in Scripture, that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit.

Please be aware that Catholics are not believers in “Sola Scriptura”. We believe that Our Lord Jesus Christ gave authority to the teaching Church. “Scripture Alone” does not hold up, or all Protestants would believe the same exact thing.

I do not fault you for what you sincerely believe in…but I do not believe you should be instructing a Catholic in what she should believe in.

Peace,

Dorothy

 

[Dorothy]

“Life in Sunshine”

Here is the complete statement, online, of the two Carmelite Orders:

carmelitanacollection.com/catechesis.html

 

[abenassi]

I haven’t found anything in scripture that would suggest that.

I posted the scripture for you (1Tim 2:1-4).

Here is what it says:

1 Timothy 2
1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

We can supplicate (intercede), v1, and through that, God can bring others to salvation (v4). This is what Mary is doing for those devoted to the Brown Scapular.

There is no doubt that God is doing His part through the Holy Spirit. But mankind is fallible and we do not always follow Him in obedience. That is why we must always compare what our teachers and leaders are saying to the Word of God. Man attributes all the things being said about Mary in here to Mary. The Bible says they are attributed to God. Who is right?

I have demonstrated that the Bible says that they are attributed also to others in the body of Christ, of which there is only one vine, those in heaven, in eternal life, included. So the Catholic Church is right, it is both God and others in the body of Christ.

The Word of God is more than the Bible; rather it is the complete revelation of God, written and unwritten, which the Catholic Church has, because we were there.

 

[CentralFLJames]

The brown scapular is not of Jesus. According to Fr. James MGilloway at cmri.org/05-brownscap.html the brown scapular is of an apparition of Mary who appeared to Simon Stock in 1251. Had the scapular been of Jesus, it would be for everyone, because what is of Jesus is for every believer in Him.

When we die, whether or not we are wearing a brown scapular will not be of any consequence. What matters is what is in the heart. God sees our hearts and He knows whether or not our names are written in the Book of Life. Whose names are written in the Book of Life? Some key verses of scripture:

Have you considered that you many not be infallible yourself Fair Lady? Why should any here listen to what you say? Are you as so “blessed among women (Luke 1:42)” that we should revere your council more so than Mary’s?

‘Had your words been of Jesus, it would be for everyone’. That is, your words would be “universal” (e.g. Catholic) and would be in harmony and accord with the ex-Cathedra (“from the Chair”) proclamations from the Holy See (the Pope). Mary serves Jesus and has always told the servants to “do whatever He tells you” (John 2:5).

May I ask what chair of authority do you preach from? The apostles have already clearly taught us that “The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)“. As well, The Church has already taught from the Chair of Peter what God’s People may believe with respect to private revelation. As such The Brown Scapular devotion may be taken as genuine and as consistent with all Christian teaching.

Why should you be so skeptical when Jesus Himself told us that the Holy Spirit would come and bring us deeper insights into the truth and various helps in things too wonderful to be told yet (John 12:12)? Have you thought much about how St. Paul got His authority to teach in the first place? Recall that Paul came AFTER Pentecost and is a fruit of the Holy Spirit - exactly what Jesus promised. Paul gives us a large portion of teachings AFTER Pentecost. Paul did not personally know Jesus – so its clear that he was given a special anointing by the Holy Spirit AFTER he was consecrated into the Body of Christ (The Church) by Baptism and made to see from after being previously blinded by God for persecuting His Church - that is Christ Himself (“Saul Saul why do you persecute me” Acts 9:4 ). Paul them immediately consulted with Peter and we can safely assume that Peter gave him his apostolic blessing and ordained him by physical laying on of hands according to the rites we still practice to this day in ordaining all apostolic bishops.

Note too that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit from the very beginning – she was FIRST CHRISTIAN, FIRST BELIEVER and is New Eve. We can take whatever Mary says and does in complete confidence once the Church has accepted that what is revealed is authentic and is consistent with apostolic beliefs. Mary’s spirit ALWAYS magnifies the Lord and brings Him into greater focus and prominence. ( Luke 1:46; see too Psalm 34:2). Do you doubt scripture that Mary is the handmaid ands servant of the Lord? Whatever Mary gives is as a servant to The Lord and should be embraced with full confidence that it is good for us.

You might want to research The Seat of Moses and the ancient Hebrew custom of authoritative scripture teaching “from the chair” while seated (ref: Matt 23:1-12, Matt 5:1; Luke 4:20-22). It will be beneficial to you to come to see how God’s has always taught through specially dedicated and “anointed” men. Teaching was never given by reading a book or scroll as students of the day do in tutorial mail order diplomas. Nope. Authority has ALWAYS been recognized in the one who sat in the seat of authority among God’s People (even when not personally impeccable in personal behavior [see: “do what they say not what they do”). Jesus gave that original Seat of Moses authority to Peter – “upon this rock I build my church”. That is what Catholics call “The Holy See” and the authority of “The Chair of Peter”. You should try to come to understand that this Chair of Peter that is in communion with the Catholic Bishops is the sole remaining apostolic authority on earth. It remains valid until Christ as The Master returns to mount His Throne and complete the fulfillment of the perfect Kingdom on Earth with His People - that is, His Servants.

On the balance of the other things, you are partially correct. When we die, if we are not clothed in the virtues of *charity, faith and hope, then no matter what anyone thinks or claims to believe it is of no use to anyone who disobeyed Christ and did not do as He commanded. Without so much as a fig leaf, such a person will stand naked and in shame before God and wish to hide - the banishment of hell is opened to these to cover their shame from God’s sight.

As you rightly discern – REPENTANCE is absolutely central to Christianity. But one must know that repentance requires changing one’s heart to the full truth and nothing but the truth – that is, Christ working through His Church (the advent of His Kingdom on earth). Repentance does NOT mean conforming oneself to neo-Christian teachings of quite ordinary and self appointed reformers who all claimed to be fallable and suffer from Total Depravity. Yet somehow people want to think these men escaped their defects long enough to “reform” the Church. Perhaps reformed in their own depraved image…

The difficulty most all Protestants have is that they want to judge for God and to presume on His mercy. Most don’t discern that they unintentionally attempt to deny God His sovereign right to judge all souls by seeking the euphoric “feeling” of a forensic declaration of certain salvation. But that presumption of “being saved” independent of full obedience to all His teachings can not be valid when the first principal of Protestantism is to reject any notion that Christ’s established a specific earthly authority. This disobedience to God’s apostolic successors is in the realm of grave sin, is contrary to any principal of repentance and will be the downfall of many culpable who call themselves Christian.

See from scripture how important service is. It was present from the onset of Christianity:

*Luke 1:38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.”

John 12:26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
We must become slaves to Christ so we can follow Him into heaven and “be where I Am”.

Lip-service to Christ while ignoring His appointed leadership merits no one salvation anymore so than Judas’ public kiss (the only altar call in the bible) merited him a crown even as presented himself to friend of Christ. Judas is in hell (see John 17:12 below). So much for Once Saved Always Saved and proclaiming The Lord as One’s Personal Lord and Savior in public.

*John 17:12 “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost EXCEPT the one doomed to destruction so that the scriptures would be fulfilled.” *

Charity, true repentance and martyrdom are valid expressions of love. And by using the very scripture (Col 1:21-23) verse you referenced salvation is seen to be contingent on persevering in our faith and standing firm to the very end. This is what Jesus meant by the house that was built on solid ground and by the Church built on rock. The Rock is The Church

Col 1:23 If you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel

The Brown Scapular is an outward sign of a Christian who is devoted to a specific Christian discipline that the Devil recognizes and fears. It is consistent with the Armor of God and has special protections that God desires to give through His Son’s Mother.** It is inconceivable to me how God could trust Mary to bring humanity The Lord and wrap Him in swaddling clothes and take care of Him as His Mother but you can not accept Mary to wrap and clothe The People of God in her protective mantle.**

Who do you think told the apostles what happened before any of them were even selected as Apostles? Mary did.

James

 

[maryj]

Lest we forget…Luke 1:48

For he has looked upon his handmaids lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me Blessed.

Blessed is the fruit of thy womb,Jesus!!!

 

[CentralFLJames]

abenassi: Let’s not make any comparisons between the miraculous healings of God in Paul’s day with the institution of the wearing of a garment for the purpose of obtaining Mary’s aid for salvation at death. They are miles and miles apart, so I won’t take the time to delve into that.

Miles apart? Do you not recall that Mary walked for miles to visit Elizabeth and bring the gift of the Christ Child while still in her womb to sanctify John the Baptist who was also in the womb before either was revealed to the rest of the world? These women both knew they were servants of God and that the children they bore would change humanity forever. Mary is the bringer of gifts to humanity - the greatest being Her Son. Do not make the mistake in assuming that Mary’s role is over after she gave birth. After all it was Mary who was instrumental in instituting Christ’s public mission on earth when she pulled on God’s merciful heart strings like a maiden plays a harp to get God to work His first miracle in the conversion of water to wine at the first sanctified sacrament of the Church - marriage.

You are injecting your own ideas into what Mary is doing with the scapular. The garment/fabric itself does nothing without the interior devotions. Mary is only an instrument of salvation and only serving The Lord in bringing us a spiritual devotional gift that must be accepted and used to be of any use. How is this any different than the instrumentality of a preacher baptising somone or teaching them the word of God?

abenassi
Here’s another huge difficulty that I have with the brown scapular. According to the article I posted earlier by Fr. McGilloway, it states *“First of all, if a Catholic chooses to wear the Brown Scapular, day in and day out, it should be an outward sign of his or her trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary.” *

That in itself brings out the red flag. Who are we suppose to trust for every detail of our salvation? Jesus Christ alone, who died on the cross to pay for our penalty for our sins. To wear something as a sign of trust for someone other than Christ for any part of salvation undermines Him. The brown scapular is an attempt by someone (I believe it to be Satan) to take away our focus from Christ and put it on Mary, who is powerless in our salvation.

Your fears are misplaced and it is Satan who wants you to reject this powerful devotional gift and to use your voice to undermine it. The scapular strikes terror into Satan.

By the way where does it say in the bible that we are to trust in every detail for our salvation in Jesus alone? Does that not seem to be a new sola that runs counter to sola scriptura? If St. Paul were to walk into the room and start preaching without a bible in his hand would you turn a deaf ear since its not Jesus alone and not the bible alone???

*Matt 10:24 " A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master" *

Mary makes no claim to be above Her Son - nay, she has always said “I am the handmaiden of The Lord.” How can a servant who is in heaven not be trusted to be in service to The Lord? Do you possibly think that Mary is not a saint in heaven?

Here’s another – if in the day a disciple of The Lord came to you and said: “Go into the city, and a man will meet you carrying a pitcher of water; follow him;” (Mark 14:13 ) would you then say: "No! I will ONLY follow the Lord? If you took such a strange attitude with God’s people then you would have missed out on the opportunity to meet The Lord in the upper room. You would have missed having your feet washed and missed having dinner with The Lord at the Last Supper. You never would have experienced the joy of partaking in the heavenly food - the Body & Blood of Christ.

Mary is not powerless in helping us in our salvation any more so than she was powerless to say “Let it be done according to your word” when she cooperated with God to bring salvation to all humanity through the instrumentality of her great fiat - “YES”! Doing the Lord’s will can never be rendering assistance to evil. Mary does not take the focus away from Christ - she points to Christ, magnifies the Lord and wants to bring the Christ Child into each of our hearts. All of the carmelite devotions are Christo-centric: Gospel readings using the Lectio Divina form of group readings, prayer and full worship of God through the mass.

abenassi
Have you ever considered that the church may not be infallible in its doctrines/dogmas/traditions?

Again - have you ever considered that **you **are not infallable with your less than 50 year old understandings of Christianity? The Catholic Church has been in continual existence for 2,000 years. The gates of hell have never prevailed. The Catholic Church will always outlive all its critics and enemies. There is no power on earth that can silence her nor defeat her. The only way that the Church can not be heard is for somone to be afraid out of ignorance and turn a deaf ear to her incessant calls to come into the fullness of the Christian Faith.

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

LifeinSunshine, what you are describing here is the role and work of the Holy Spirit. We don’t find anything in the Bible that attributes those things to Mary as a saint who has gone on before us.

We must not look to or attribute anything to Mary or anyone else that is God’s alone. When we are in Christ, we have the honor and the privilege of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit within us. He helps us in our times of trouble and in our infirmities. For He prays for us when we don’t even know how to pray.

You have a very parochial view of the Holy Spirit in thinking that He is manifest only in a personal way. The fullness of the Holy Spirit is ONLY guaranteed to be present in The Church which is comprised of members who are in various stages of sanctification and who are far from being impeccable. Yet it was just these sort of fallable and sinful men that Christ used as an instrument for the Holy Spirit to work through to deliver His Word to all of the earth. And as Christ demonstrated during the transfiguration God is not a God of the dead but of the living. We know for certain that there are a cloud of witnesses in heaven as we speak here who are cheering and interceding for our benefit to hold the course and claim our victory.

In fact it can be said that if each Christian does not become “Christ” for someone else they can not attain salvation. No one gets to heaven in a lone ranger sort of religion. One must bring friends with them for God’s grace demands a dividend and operates for God to expand his Kingdom. Here is ample scripture example of how we are called to honor each of the other members of the Body of Christ and let the Holy Spirit work through The Church for the benefit of all of God’s family:

We are taught to honor the people of God
Rom. 13:7; Phil. 2:25-29; Heb. 3:3; 1 Pet. 2:7
*
Romans 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

Phill. 2:29 Welcome him [Epaphroditus, my brother] in the Lord with great joy, and honor men like him

Hebrews 3:3 Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than Moses, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. [e.g. Moses was honored but less so than Christ]

1 Peter 2:17 Show proper respect to everyone: Love the brotherhood of believers, fear God, honor the king.

We are taught to imitate the Church leaders & human examples of Christian virtue

1 Cor. 4:16-17; 1 Cor. 11:1-2; Phil. 3:17; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:7; Heb. 6:12; Heb. 13:7; James 5:10-11

1 Cor 4:16-17 **Therefore I urge you to imitate me **[Paul as a living example]. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

[Note: Paul is telling his disciples to emulate HIM by way of Timothy’s example as if speaking and acting for Christ himself.]

1 Cor 11:1-2 Follow my [Paul] example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Phil 3:17 Join with others in following my [Paul] example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you [e.g. the ecclesial leadership].

Heb 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith
*

The bottom Line - It is highly scriptural that we follow the good example of The Church leadership and her saints. There can be no question that Mary is a saint and a servant of God. No soul in heaven can sin in the slightest or not do God’s will. The leadership of The Church has resolved that the Brown Scapular is highly consistent with the scriptures and that the faithful are safe to believe it to be true and take it as gift from God. It is a special devotion to Jesus that brings special protections - supernatural armor of God.

“Ephesians 6:18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.”

Romans 8:26 (King James Version)
26Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

We can count on the Spirit of God. How wonderful that is! And it does not matter what we are wearing - He is with us, loves us, and knows our needs like no one else.

Indeed, we can count on the Spirit of God. And He has sent us the Brown Scapular devotional to add to the formidable arsenal of powerful spiritual gifts and disciplines that we may put on to persevere against the worst that Satan can tempt us with. It can also be a sign that reminds others of one’s devotion and dedication to purity too. Can you imagine anyone wearing a brown scapular who is conscious of its devotion ever being able to participate in sins of the flesh without taking it off?
Matt 6:30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
1 Peter 5:5 …All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, “God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”*

Pax,
James

 

[Church_Militant]

There are many different styles of brown scapular, but most that I have seen have pictures of both Jesus and Mary on them. I don’t get the problem you have Fair Lady.

All authentic and approved Marian devotions are Christocentric and none of us Catholics are dumb enough to assert that Mary gets us into Heaven. The Church doesn’t teach that and never will.

The Carmelites are no different.

Fair Lady, you have totally misinterpreted the brown scapular devotion. If you don’t know what you are talking about then why don’t you listen to the Catholics who do and accept it.

Your argument that it cannot be found in the Bible is irrelevant because the belief that everything that Christians believe and practice has to be found in the Bible is itself not found anywhere in the Word of God.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Have you considered that you many not be infallible yourself Fair Lady? Why should any here listen to what you say?

I make no claims of infallibility. I like to tell other posters to please check what I say against the Bible. If what I say goes against scripture, I invite posters to tell me and I will gladly research the point in scripture and evaluate what I said in the first place.

Are you as so “blessed among women (Luke 1:42)” that we should revere your council more so than Mary’s?

There isn’t much in scripture that came from Mary’s lips, but what is there is well worth heeding. It would be wonderful is she were here to participate in this discussion! J

‘Had your words been of Jesus, it would be for everyone’. That is, your words would be “universal” (e.g. Catholic) and would be in harmony and accord with the ex-Cathedra (“from the Chair”) proclamations from the Holy See (the Pope). Mary serves Jesus and has always told the servants to “do whatever He tells you” (John 2:5).

Whatever comes from the Holy See that is in harmony with scripture, I have no problems with. But that which comes from the Holy See and is not consistent with scripture, should be questioned and taken for what it is.

May I ask what chair of authority do you preach from? The apostles have already clearly taught us that “The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)“. As well, The Church has already taught from the Chair of Peter what God’s People may believe with respect to private revelation. As such The Brown Scapular devotion may be taken as genuine and as consistent with all Christian teaching.

Psalm 119:104 – 105 contains a prayer that flows through my heart - “From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.” I love to share God’s word and even though I don’t have authority to preach in a church, I do love to discuss and share what God has given each one of us. I don’t think there is a God-given law against that.
In speaking to the second part of your last statement, I have no problem with 1 Timothy 3:15. However, it is clear from Ephesians 5:23-24 that the church is subject to Christ and truth will flow from the church only as long as the church is in obedience to Christ and His Word.
Ephesians 5:23-24 “For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”.

Why should you be so skeptical when Jesus Himself told us that the Holy Spirit would come and bring us deeper insights into the truth and various helps in things too wonderful to be told yet (John 12:12)?

In the matter of the brown scapular, part of my skepticism has to do with the fact that the scapular came from an “apparation of Mary”, not the Holy Spirit.

Have you thought much about how St. Paul got His authority to teach in the first place? Recall that Paul came AFTER Pentecost and is a fruit of the Holy Spirit - exactly what Jesus promised. Paul gives us a large portion of teachings AFTER Pentecost. Paul did not personally know Jesus – so its clear that he was given a special anointing by the Holy Spirit AFTER he was consecrated into the Body of Christ (The Church) by Baptism and made to see from after being previously blinded by God for persecuting His Church - that is Christ Himself (“Saul Saul why do you persecute me” Acts 9:4 ). Paul them immediately consulted with Peter and we can safely assume that Peter gave him his apostolic blessing and ordained him by physical laying on of hands according to the rites we still practice to this day in ordaining all apostolic bishops.

I’m not going to belabour every detail that you’ve given there, but even if everything is exactly as you say, it is important to note that from Acts 17 verse 11, we get a glimpse of how Paul’s preaching was received by the Bereans: “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Even to this day, we need to follow the example of the Bereans – to examine what we are told by church leaders to see if what they are saying is true.

Well, I’ve run out of time for now, but will get to the rest of your post later.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Continuation of my response to CentralFLJames:

Do you doubt scripture that Mary is the handmaid ands servant of the Lord?

Not at all. But she does not have the power of and role of the Holy Spirit. (See my post #23). That is partly what I’m challenging. One of my other concerns is that according to the writing by Father McGilloway – “First of all, if a Catholic chooses to wear the Brown Scapular, day in and day out, it should be an outward sign of his or her trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary.” That takes away the focus on God for their salvation and puts it onto Mary. I believe that to be very dangerous because our salvation is through God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit alone.

You might want to research The Seat of Moses and the ancient Hebrew custom of authoritative scripture teaching “from the chair” while seated (ref: Matt 23:1-12, Matt 5:1; Luke 4:20-22). It will be beneficial to you to come to see how God’s has always taught through specially dedicated and “anointed” men.

That opens up another huge topic, so for the sake of brevity, I’ll just say that “anointed” men of God will do as Paul exhorted Timothy in 2 Timothy 2:15 “Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” I am always blessed with I’m learning from a leader who rightly divides the word of God.

The difficulty most all Protestants have is that they want to judge for God and to presume on His mercy. Most don’t discern that they unintentionally attempt to deny God His sovereign right to judge all souls by seeking the euphoric “feeling” of a forensic declaration of certain salvation. But that presumption of “being saved” independent of full obedience to all His teachings can not be valid when the first principal of Protestantism is to reject any notion that Christ’s established a specific earthly authority. This disobedience to God’s apostolic successors is in the realm of grave sin, is contrary to any principal of repentance and will be the downfall of many culpable who call themselves Christian.

That doesn’t describe my understanding of salvation and my faith.

See from scripture how important service is. It was present from the onset of Christianity:
Luke 1:38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May it be to me as you have said.”

John 12:26 Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.
We must become slaves to Christ so we can follow Him into heaven and “be where I Am”.

I do agree with that to the extent that it isn’t the fullness of the gospel.

Lip-service to Christ while ignoring His appointed leadership merits no one salvation anymore so than Judas’ public kiss (the only altar call in the bible) merited him a crown even as presented himself to friend of Christ. Judas is in hell (see John 17:12 below).

While I’m not able to judge one’s eternal destination (that’s God’s to do) I think it is likely that Judas is in hell because he was either not a true friend of Jesus or because he defected. Again, another new topic, so I won’t go any farther with that.

So much for Once Saved Always Saved and proclaiming The Lord as One’s Personal Lord and Savior in public.
John 17:12 “While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost EXCEPT the one doomed to destruction so that the scriptures would be fulfilled.”

I don’t ascribe to the “once saved always saved” doctrine as in some Protestant circles. I believe that the only one who has ever gained from that doctrine is Satan himself.

I will need to wait for another time to reply to the remainder of your post…this has been lenghty!

 

[Koopa]

First of all, although I do not agree with what you are saying, Fair Lady, I am grateful that you are being calm and fair. If only all Catholics and Protestants were like that.

Not at all. But she does not have the power of and role of the Holy Spirit. (See my post #23). That is partly what I’m challenging. One of my other concerns is that according to the writing by Father McGilloway – “First of all, if a Catholic chooses to wear the Brown Scapular, day in and day out, it should be an outward sign of his or her trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary.” That takes away the focus on God for their salvation and puts it onto Mary. I believe that to be very dangerous because our salvation is through God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit alone.

As Catholics, we believe that the work that the Holy Spirit does is very much different than the work that Mary does, because the Holy Spirit is God himself. Therefore, he is the source of all grace, and acts by bringing this grace to his people by a variety of ways. I see no reason why he cannot use Mary, his blessed spouse, to bring his grace to the world (as he most certainly did in the Incarnation). Any Catholic who believes that the salvific grace brought to us through Mary is not entirely and exclusively from God is a heretic.

Clearly, the Holy Spirit works in a similar way to this when his grace is brought to us through a person on earth. For example, we may first learn of the salvation offered by Jesus Christ from our pastor. By honoring and revering this pastor, we in no way take our focus off of God for our salvation, but recognize this person as a special tool of the Spirit’s grace.

 

[CentralFLJames]

I make no claims of infallibility. I like to tell other posters to please check what I say against the Bible. If what I say goes against scripture, I invite posters to tell me and I will gladly research the point in scripture and evaluate what I said in the first place.

Thank you for your charitable and balanced replies. It is a rare pleasure to have dialog with somone who can be charitable, disciplined and who is clearly deeply spiritual and on the pathway to sanctification and salvation.

May I ask you why you tell posters to check things against the bible when you admit that you are not infallable? Did the apostles ever teach their disciples to check what they were taught against the bible? Did the early church ever refer its members to “check the bible” or did the priest or bishop just simply instruct and teach the congregation what was proper Christian conduct and teachings?

The answer to all the above is simply “no”. Matter of fact no apostle ever saw or conceived of a bible. The bible was a late 4th century fruit of The Catholic Church – a working of the Holy Spirit within God’s People - The Church. The Catholic Church first presented the cannon at the Council of Rome 382 AD under Pope Damascus. It was assembled to repel heresies and to standardize the liturgy spoken and taught by the ordained ecclesial leaders before the assembled lay Christians; as well it was used as a source for early Christian prayers and hymns (e.g. esp. the psalms). In fact, there were prior popular texts that were also in use in the early Catholic Church such as The Shepherd of Hermes & Didache etc. But these were not considered 100% inspired so were removed from the approved texts and retained as useful works that record disciplines and give other insights.

What the apostles and their successors/disciples actually taught was to ‘take up questions/issues to The Church’ ( Matt 18:18) as the ‘pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim. 3:15 )’. In other words only the ecclesial leadership (bishops, and priests/deacons in service to them) taught and “judged” on matters. The bible was never used by individual lay members of the Christian community as a rule of faith or law. That was entirely alien to the early Christian traditions and mores. This idea of taking up matters to the bible through one’s subjective and biased lens of private interpretation is an all new tradition that started very late in the 16th century by the break-away Christian Protestant sects. As we see today - this error has lead to a legion of divisions and factions (35,000+ denominations).

There isn’t much in scripture that came from Mary’s lips, but what is there is well worth heeding. It would be wonderful is she were here to participate in this discussion! J

Where the Holy Spirit is so too is Jesus and so too is Mary. Mary is first Christian and the only human to have known Jesus all His life. She is the one who gave the accounts to the apostles of what happened before any of them were selected to be His disciples. To the spiritually discerning eye Mary is present all through scripture from Genesis to Revelation. She is “The Woman”, “The Virgin”, “Daughter Zion”, “new Eve”, “Kecharitōmenē” (full of grace) and more. She is also blessed among all other women - even more blessed that was Eve before she fell. She has a fullness of the Holy Spirit that exceeds that of any other man or woman. What Mary says always leads to Her Son and is always from God.

Luke 1:35 The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.

She is here.

Whatever comes from the Holy See that is in harmony with scripture, I have no problems with. But that which comes from the Holy See and is not consistent with scripture, should be questioned and taken for what it is.

The office of the Holy See is what discerned, approved and promulgated the Bible - The Church begot the Bible. The Bible did not beget the Church. One simply can not have the bible seperate from The Church anymore so than the Christ Child could be born without His Mother.

Do you happen to know of anything that is taught by the Holy See that is not consistent with scripture? And may I ask ‘where in scripture does it tell anyone to ratify what the Church teaches’ against scripture? You have already admitted to being fallable so why would you even imagine to judge the judge? Is a book in the hands of just anyone a greater authority than a hand selected apostolic successor? As was already pointed out scripture tells us that all matters should be referred to the Church for judgement. Scripture itself also says that there is no such thing as private scripture interpretation (2 Peter 1:20) and that scripture is hard to understand and not a thing for ignorant and untaught men to try to discern (2 Peter 3:16 ). This is what The Church is for - to teach.
Luke 10:16 “He who listens to you [ed: apostolic authority] listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

John 13:16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

Psalm 119:104 – 105 contains a prayer that flows through my heart - “From Your precepts I get understanding; Therefore I hate every false way. Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.” I love to share God’s word and even though I don’t have authority to preach in a church, I do love to discuss and share what God has given each one of us. I don’t think there is a God-given law against that.

Great!
No - there is no law against sharing gifts. Each gift that the Holy Spirit gives is given for service to the Body of Christ - that is The Church. But there is no such valid Christian concept of independence or anarchy or disorder nor warring members within the corpus of Christianity. No individual part of the Body may elect to serve itself nor be disordered to the whole. The early Christians were a genuine “community” of believers - each in service to the other and obedient to the appointed ecclesial leadership. The Church is in fact that shining light on a hill:

*Matthew 5:14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. *

In speaking to the second part of your last statement, I have no problem with 1 Timothy 3:15. However, it is clear from Ephesians 5:23-24 that the church is subject to Christ and truth will flow from the church only as long as the church is in obedience to Christ and His Word.

Ah, but here you are over projecting your own personal ideas into scripture. There are no condition in Ephesians 5 that presume that the church would ever be disobedient to its head. A good wife in a blessed marriage is always in harmony with its head and there is no concept of divorce in Christianity except for unlawful and deceitful unions - divorce is simply not an option for God nor Church. There is also no word in this verse that is is conditional on a presumption of obedience nor disobedience. That is simply not addressed at all. It would in fact be a contradiction to scripture “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” for the church to ever teach anything but the truth. This itself is proof that the church is infallable in its solemn declarations in matters of faith and morals.

Why should you be so skeptical when Jesus Himself told us that the Holy Spirit would come and bring us deeper insights into the truth and various helps in things too wonderful to be told yet (John 12:12)?

This is an assumption on your part. What makes you think that an apparition of Mary is seperate from the Holy Spirit? Do you not agree that all saints in heaven are full of the Holy Spirit and can not sin? Did not the Holy Spirit come in the form of a dove & lightening (Matt 3:17), then a bright cloud ( Matt 17:5) and finally tongues of fire (Acts 2:3 )? Would you reject those scripture verses where the Holy Spirit came in different forms? Would you reject the angel’s message at the site of the resurrection that told us “He is risen” (Matt 28:6) since the angel was not the Holy Spirit? I am just trying to understand your rationale. Is your rejection coming from the Holy Spirit or from your own ideas or fears?

I’m not going to belabour every detail that you’ve given there, but even if everything is exactly as you say, it is important to note that from Acts 17 verse 11, we get a glimpse of how Paul’s preaching was received by the Bereans: “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Even to this day, we need to follow the example of the Bereans – to examine what we are told by church leaders to see if what they are saying is true.

But the Bereans were only one single group of Christians among many. These happened to be Jews who knew the OLD testament. The Bereans were being convinced that Christianity was the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophesies. Note that they were not already disciples - but being proselytized and converted to Christianity. They had already heard and received Paul’s ORAL teaching. All they did was go back and confirm against the OT text that Paul’s explanation about Christ was consistent with the OT teachings. These were clearly scholarly men and were probably Rabbi’s and teachers. It was proper for them to check scripture since they were the original keepers of the law in their own community. But once they were convinced that Paul had spoken the truth they converted to Christianity. At that point in time they are Paul’s disciples and take direction from Paul as a disciple of Christ. This is not framework for how Christians should challenge Christian teaching or to refer everything to the bible. This is simply an account of how Paul converted some few numbers of Jews by convincing them of HIS AUTHORITY as a representative of Christ.

James

 

[Fair_Lady]

At long last I can complete my response to you, James. Sorry for the delay.

Charity, true repentance and martyrdom are valid expressions of love. And by using the very scripture (Col 1:21-23) verse you referenced salvation is seen to be contingent on persevering in our faith and standing firm to the very end. This is what Jesus meant by the house that was built on solid ground and by the Church built on rock. The Rock is The Church

I believe that the Rock is Jesus Christ as clarified in 1 Corinthians 10:4: “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

And I believe that the church is under the authority of Jesus as stated in Ephesians 5:23-24 –

“For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

Also Colossians 1:18 – “”And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”
It is persevering in our faith in Jesus Christ to the end that is so crucial to our salvation.

The Brown Scapular is an outward sign of a Christian who is devoted to a specific Christian discipline that the Devil recognizes and fears. It is consistent with the Armor of God and has special protections that God desires to give through His Son’s Mother.

Let’s go back to what Fr. McGilloway said about wearing the brown scapular at cmri.org/05-brownscap.html :
“First of all, if a Catholic chooses to wear the Brown Scapular, day in and day out, it should be an outward sign of his or her trust in the Blessed Virgin Mary. Such a one should be confident that Our Lady will use her powerful intercession with her Divine Son Jesus to obtain for him special graces to live a good Catholic life and remain in the state of grace. In fact, Pope Pius XII said that wearing the Brown Scapular should be an outward sign of one’s consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary, indicating that the one wearing the Scapular has a childlike dependence upon the Blessed Virgin as a model of virtue and as an intercessor, trusting that she will obtain special graces for him to live a virtuous life and especially to avoid mortal sin.

Secondly, this promise means that at the hour of death, if we are wearing the Brown Scapular, our Blessed Mother will intercede with God to obtain the graces we need to remain in the state of grace in God’s friendship so that we can save our souls. Or, if we have the misfortune of being in the state of sin, she will intercede for us that we might receive the Holy Ghost and sanctifying grace back into our soul before we die. Perhaps she will obtain for us the grace to make a perfect act of contrition, or she may obtain from God’s Providence an arrangement such that a priest will come to hear our confession and perhaps even administer the sacrament of Extreme Unction before we die.”

It’s all about trusting in Mary. She is the main focus of the practise of wearing the brown scapular. I find it very disturbing. If only God would be looked on and trusted like Mary is looked upon and trusted here.

It is inconceivable to me how God could trust Mary to bring humanity The Lord and wrap Him in swaddling clothes and take care of Him as His Mother but you can not accept Mary to wrap and clothe The People of God in her protective mantle.

I put my faith and trust in God alone. He is sufficient for all my needs. Mary was a human being and while she was blessed, she was and is not God who is supreme over all.

Who do you think told the apostles what happened before any of them were even selected as Apostles? Mary did.

Please explain.