Having some difficulty with accepting the Brown Scapular

[CentralFLJames]

I believe that the Rock is Jesus Christ as clarified in 1 Corinthians 10:4: “And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.”

And I believe that the church is under the authority of Jesus as stated in Ephesians 5:23-24 –

Jesus is the cornerstone on which all is aligned. Peter is the rock of the Church – which is of course aligned on Christ as its head so it becomes the ‘pillar and foundation of truth’. Because the Church it is aligned on Christ it therefore must be true and in line with Christ’s teachings. It has the promise of the Holy Spirit to teach the truth and Christ’s promise that it can’t teach in error (“the gates of hell shall not prevail”). See too that Christ as bridegroom has a bride and in the Christian marriage the two become one and inseparable. Christ identified personally with His Church (“Saul Saul why do you persecute me?” [Acts 9:4]) and defends and protects it and desires for all men to come to Him through His Church…

The water that flows out of the rock comes from Source Christus and this is the sacramental graces of the Church.
Numbers 20:11 Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank.

Matt. 16:18 I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

John 13:5 Then He poured water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet and to wipe them with the towel with which He was girded.

Matt 26:31 ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’

Gen 2:21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh.

John 19:34 one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

1 John 5 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ

John 21:16 Again Jesus said, “Simon son of John, do you truly love me?” He answered, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” Jesus said, “Take care of my sheep.”

Rev 22:1-2 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, in the middle of its street On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
[continued]

James

 

[CentralFLJames]

Let’s go back to what Fr. McGilloway said about wearing the brown scapular
…
It’s all about trusting in Mary. She is the main focus of the practise of wearing the brown scapular. I find it very disturbing. If only God would be looked on and trusted like Mary is looked upon and trusted here.

I put my faith and trust in God alone. He is sufficient for all my needs. Mary was a human being and while she was blessed, she was and is not God who is supreme over all.

It only appears to you that Mary is the focus since you are coming from a Protestant tradition and are taught to be suspicious of all things that do not have the words “Jesus” in them. Yet Jesus was for 40 weeks hidden from view but still present in the womb of Mary and in fact performed His first work from the womb by sanctifying John the Baptist while Mary approached Elizabeth. This is a classic case of Jesus working literally through Mary.

Luke 1:41-43 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42In a loud voice she exclaimed: "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! 43But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
And St. Paul often instructed his disciples to emulate HIS example and do as HE did. Would you not obey St. Paul if he came before you this moment and said “Fair Lady follow my example and you too will have eternal life”?

Once again here are the scriptures that show this vividly.
*
1 Cor 4:16-17 Therefore I urge you to imitate me [Paul as a living example]. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He [Timothy] will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

1 Cor 11:1-2 Follow my [Paul] example, as I follow the example of Christ.

Phil 3:17 Join with others in following my [Paul] example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you [e.g. the ecclesial leadership].
*

If God can trust Mary to bear His Son for 40 weeks in the womb and in his most vulnerable time feed him, cloth him and nurture Him into adult life why can’t you feel comfortable trusting Mary to clothe you in her scapular? If Jesus was obedient to His Mother and Honored His parents why can’t you honor her too?
Luke 2:6-7 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

Luke 2:51 And He went down with them [Mary & Joseph] and came to Nazareth, and He continued in subjection to them; and His mother treasured all these things in her heart
*

Please explain.

Read all the accounts of Jesus’ birth annunciation, the accounts with Elizabeth, the flight into Egypt, the presentation of Jesus, Simeon’s Prophecy, the losing of Jesus as a child in the temple and the times before any apostle was called by Jesus when He was alone and encountered John the Baptist. Who do you think gave all these eyewitness accounts? Most of these had to come from Mary. Mary was the first Christian – the first to trust in The Lord and the only one who knew Christ in the flesh at the instant He was conceived in the womb all the way to his last breath on the cross and then the resurrection and the ascension.

As God trusted Mary with His life as the Christ Child we too we can trust Mary as His mother to point us to Christ and tell us “Whatever He says to you, do it" John 2:5.

Christ’s Father says the same thing:
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!" Mark 9:7

James

 

[Fair_Lady]

As God trusted Mary with His life as the Christ Child we too we can trust Mary as His mother to point us to Christ and tell us “Whatever He says to you, do it" John 2:5.

Christ’s Father says the same thing:
Then a cloud appeared and enveloped them, and a voice came from the cloud: "This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!" Mark 9:7

James

I would have liked to address every post that was directed my way, but unfortunately time just doesn’t permit it. This will need to be my last response to this thread. I’m glad we had an opportunity to hash out some things and though we haven’t come to an agreement, it was good that there was opportunity to bring out some scripture for consideration.

In closing, I’d just like to thank you for bringing John 2:5 to the forum. Though the words are few, they are powerful - “Whatever He says to you, do it.” Again, those words appear in Mark 9:7. This time from God the Father, our Most High. May we always pay heed to that instruction.

My prayer for us all is that first and foremost, we will always seek to be obedient to God as he has revealed His will and desires for us in scripture. We can never go wrong when we know beyond a shadow of a doubt what He has told us in His word. When we are presented ideas that don’t fit what is told us from within the framework of scripture, we must be wary.

Thank you all for graciously accepting me (an alien ) to your forum. I’ll probably be back, but need to take a bit of a break now. I do apologize again for not answering each poster here. I know that a lot of thought and hard work went into responding to my posts.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I would have liked to address every post that was directed my way, but unfortunately time just doesn’t permit it. This will need to be my last response to this thread. I’m glad we had an opportunity to hash out some things and though we haven’t come to an agreement, it was good that there was opportunity to bring out some scripture for consideration.

In closing, I’d just like to thank you for bringing John 2:5 to the forum. Though the words are few, they are powerful - “Whatever He says to you, do it.” Again, those words appear in Mark 9:7. This time from God the Father, our Most High. May we always pay heed to that instruction.

My prayer for us all is that first and foremost, we will always seek to be obedient to God as he has revealed His will and desires for us in scripture. We can never go wrong when we know beyond a shadow of a doubt what He has told us in His word. When we are presented ideas that don’t fit what is told us from within the framework of scripture, we must be wary.

Thank you all for graciously accepting me (an alien ) to your forum. I’ll probably be back, but need to take a bit of a break now. I do apologize again for not answering each poster here. I know that a lot of thought and hard work went into responding to my posts.

I didn’t participate in this thread because I have found it difficult and frustrating to attempt to maintain a dialogue with a person who ignores me. But I did find this thread to be very helpful to me because I have a Brown Scapular and wore it until I accidentally broke one of the ties. I am ordering a new one and now I know it means much more to wear a Brown Scapular than to well, just wear it. I didn’t know these things before and I very much appreciate everyone who took time to post this information.

I love Mary, I put my trust in her, and I know she will help me. I know that wearing the Brown Scapular is not what Fair Lady seems to believe - those who actually wear the Scapular don’t just don it like some sort of necklace. Those who really wear it do so out of love for our Holy Mother and that is why Mary has made the promises she has regarding those who wear the Scapular.

Also, I would like to post the following prayer and hymn of love to our Holy Mother:

Hail, Holy Queen enthroned above,
Oh Maria!
Hail, Mother of mercy and of love,
Oh Maria!
Triumph all ye Cherubim!
Sing with us ye Seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

Our life, our sweetness here below,
Oh Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe,
Oh Maria!
Triumph all ye Cherubim!
Sing with us ye Seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

We honour you for Christ, your Son,
Oh Maria!
Who has for us redemption won,
Oh Maria!
Triumph all ye Cherubim
Sing with us ye Seraphim
Heaven and earth resound the hymn
Salve, salve, salve Regina!

And when our last breath leaves us,
Oh Maria!
Show us thy son Christ Jesus,
Oh Maria!
Triumph all ye Cherubim!
Sing with us ye Seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
Salve, salve, salve, Regina!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salve_Regina

fisheaters.com/hymns.html

Ave Maria! Ora pro nobis.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I love Mary, I put my trust in her, and I know she will help me.

I couldn’t just let this post go without a reply. It begs for a response.

LittleSolder, I just want you to know that God knows your heart inside out and on the day you die, He will know in whom you are putting your trust. If your faith and trust in Him and in the work of Jesus Christ on Calvary, He will take you home to live with HIm forever.

When Mary is looked to as a help in the time of need and salvation, she is being looked to as a god. The promises of the brown scapular hold Mary to the likeness of the Holy Spirit and credit her with the work of the Holy Spirit.

Let’s heed what scripture says:
Deuteronomy 11:13
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Deuteronomy 13:3,4
the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Psalm 125:1
They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

Psalm 115:11
Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Our life, our sweetness here below,
Oh Maria!
Our hope in sorrow and in woe,
Oh Maria!

May Jesus be our life and our sweetness here below.

And when our last breath leaves us,
Oh Maria!
Show us thy son Christ Jesus,
Oh Maria!

Rather, may it be as it was for Stephen at his time of death (Acts 7:55, 56) - "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
That was done without any help from Mary. It was God Himself that revealed Himself to Stephen of His own power and glroy.

Here is a promise from Jesus. We can believe it and trust that He will come through in our hour of death. He will not need help from anyone:

John 5:24 “Truly, truly I say to you that he who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life, and he does not come into condemnation but has passed over from death into life.”

 

[bookgirl32]

When Mary is looked to as a help in the time of need and salvation, she is being looked to as a god. The promises of the brown scapular hold Mary to the likeness of the Holy Spirit and credit her with the work of the Holy Spirit.

So God Himself looked to Mary as a god? He Himself asked her (not ordered) out of need (because of the plan He Himself set in motion) to help all of us in our own personal salvation, so He was looking to her as a god? Interesting.

 

[Fair_Lady]

So God Himself looked to Mary as a god? He Himself asked her (not ordered) out of need (because of the plan He Himself set in motion) to help all of us in our own personal salvation, so He was looking to her as a god? Interesting.

No, God has never looked to Mary as a god.

God didn’t even ask Mary to bear His Son. He told her through the angel what was going to occur - “Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, *you will conceive *in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.” Luke 1:30, 31.

Mary questioned what she was being told at first - of course it would be reasonable and natural not to understand what was to take place at first in this most unique situation. But then when the angel revealed to Mary that the Holy Spirit would come upon her, Mary, in submission to the Lord relented and said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” Luke 1:38. Mary appears to have stayed true as a humble and obedient servant before the Lord.

That, at least in part, describes Mary’s role in God’s plan of salvation - to bear His Son who came to die for our sins.

Now in the matter of the brown scapular, as a result of an “apparition”, Mary is being credited the role of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:9-11 should be very helpful to us here"

“You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.”

As you can see, when we become true believers in Christ, His Spirit comes and dwells within us. Not only does His Spirit free us from sin, He gives us eternal life with Him. There is no need to call on Mary to point us to Christ. No. His Spirit is already alive in us and dwells within us and He will take us safely home with Him because He paid the penalty for the sins for whosoever will put their faith and trust in Him.

The warning of Hebrews 3: 12 - 15 hold for us today the same truth as way back then:

"See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. As has just been said:
“Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion.”

Our salvation comes by grace through faith in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit alone. “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” Ephesians 2:8.

"

 

[Fair_Lady]

When Mary is looked to as a help in the time of need and salvation, she is being looked to as a god. The promises of the brown scapular hold Mary to the likeness of the Holy Spirit and credit her with the work of the Holy Spirit.

I am going to correct myself…it should read “When Mary is looked to as a help inthe time of need and salvation, she is being looked on as God.”

 

[bookgirl32]

No, God has never looked to Mary as a god.

God didn’t even ask Mary to bear His Son. He told her through the angel what was going to occur - “Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, *you will conceive *in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name JESUS.” Luke 1:30, 31.
Mary questioned what she was being told at first - of course it would be reasonable and natural not to understand what was to take place at first in this most unique situation. But then when the angel revealed to Mary that the Holy Spirit would come upon her, Mary, in submission to the Lord relented and said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” Luke 1:38. Mary appears to have stayed true as a humble and obedient servant before the Lord.

So Mary had no choice in the matter? Mary, unlike Adam and Eve and the rest of all humanity, was made without free will in order to be forced by God to bear His Son? That’s a new Marian doctrine I’ve never heard . How could Mary have “stayed true” then, as a humble servant, if she had no choice in the matter in the first place? You’re kind of contradicting yourself there.

So what’s the deal? You don’t believe in free will (Calvinist maybe?) You do believe in free will but just not for Mary? In either case it’s not a possibility that she would “stay true” as you put it since she had no choice in the matter. Or you do believe she had free will and therefore God DID ask her and an assent was required from her in order for God’s plan to take place as He intended. (Note the “as He intended”, he chose to make it required for her to assent to the plan).

There’s no point in even getting into a discussion about the brown scapular right now since you don’t understand the Church’s position on Mary herself in the first place. An understanding (not belief, no one’s asking you to agree) of what the Church teaches is necessary to understand the brown scapular. So we’d need to get that straight first.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I couldn’t just let this post go without a reply. It begs for a response.

LittleSolder, I just want you to know that God knows your heart inside out and on the day you die, He will know in whom you are putting your trust. If your faith and trust in Him and in the work of Jesus Christ on Calvary, He will take you home to live with HIm forever.

I know this. Why are you telling me this? I already know this!

When Mary is looked to as a help in the time of need and salvation, she is being looked to as a god. The promises of the brown scapular hold Mary to the likeness of the Holy Spirit and credit her with the work of the Holy Spirit.

[bolding, italics, and font size are mine]

Please see my next post for my response to this quote.

Let’s heed what scripture says:
Deuteronomy 11:13
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

Hmmm, I think something got left off the end there.

Deuteronomy 13:3,4
the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.

And if I love Mary, I fail the test? Is this what you are trying to tell me? I know the two Commandments of Christ, but it’s a bit hard to follow them. Once I follow the first one there is no more love to give to my neighbor! Could it be that your interpretation is wrong?

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

Rather, lean unto the understanding of Fair Lady, for she believes she has the authority to interpret scripture.

Psalm 118:8
It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.

It is even better to act as the LORD acted, as He loves His mother, so shall I.

Psalm 115:11
Ye that fear the LORD…

I don’t fear the Lord. Why should I fear my creator and my Savior? Why should I fear one who loves me so much that He gave His life for me? I don’t fear the Lord - I love the Lord. The Lord is my Light and my Salvation - whom should I fear?

Rather, may it be as it was for Stephen at his time of death (Acts 7:55, 56) - "But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
That was done without any help from Mary. It was God Himself that revealed Himself to Stephen of His own power and glroy.

And how do you know this? Were you there with Stephen? How do you know this was done with no help from Mary? Why is this even an issue? Why do you insist on adding to scripture? Why do you hold yourself up to be such an authority, you, a woman who isn’t even supposed to teach, according to St. Paul?

----continued in next post----

 

[LittleSoldier]

----continuation of last post----

Here is a promise from Jesus. We can believe it and trust that He will come through in our hour of death. He will not need help from anyone:

John 5:24 “Truly, truly I say to you that he who hears my word and believes in him who sent me has eternal life, and he does not come into condemnation but has passed over from death into life.”

Fair Lady, you are so so so so so wrong. Numerous people have told you about how Catholics view Mary and you ignore them every time. Now you are accusing me of IDOLATRY and that is not a nice thing to do.

I do not worship Mary. I ask Mary to pray to God for me. Why can’t you understand this simple, basic fact? Why do you constantly expect me to accept your personal interpretation of scripture? Who made you the authority? Why don’t you accept my interpretation (which is the Church’s interpretation)? Hmmmmmm?

And where do you get this bizarre notion that all the words of God are wrapped up in a bible which doesn’t even state which books belong in it? And who gave us the Bible? The Catholic Church, Fair Lady, that’s who.

I have asked you these questions before. I have asked you why you insist that the Bible is the only source of God’s word. Can you answer me? Did the Apostles have the Bible? No. So, obviously they taught without the Bible, right? And that means they either wrote everything down or they taught ORALLY. Which leads us to TRADITION. The Catholic Church bases her teachings on the Bible and Apostolic Tradition.

The Brown Scapular does not hold Mary to the likeness of the Holy Spirit. Good grief! Where do you come up with these things? God is God. Mary is Mary. God is not Mary. Mary is not God. I don’t worship Mary.

God does know my heart and soul inside and out. Who are you to judge me - to accuse me of IDOLATRY? Do you realize what an INSULT that is to me, who is only wanting to love Jesus’ mother?

I AM NOT AN IDOLATER… I worship the one true God alone. You may look at this post as being uncharitable but this is the first time ANYONE HAS EVER ACCUSED ME OF IDOLATRY!

Don’t judge me. It is not your place.

Hail, Holy Queen! Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope!
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up
our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Turn then, oh most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us,
and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Oh clement! Oh loving! Oh sweet Virgin Mary!
Pray for us, oh most holy Mother of God, that we may be made worthy of
the promises of Christ.

Hail, holy Queen, enthroned above, Oh Maria,
Hail, Mother of Mercy and of Love, Oh Maria,
Triumph all ye Cherubim!
Sing with us, ye Seraphim!
Heaven and earth resound the hymn!
SALVE, SALVE, SALVE REGINA!

Dearest Mary, I prostrate myself before you.
Who am I, that the mother of my Savior should even
acknowledge me? Your love knows no bounds, your
soul magnifies the Lord, you are indeed full of grace!

Sancta Maria! Sancta Maria! Mater dei, ora pro nobis!

I apologize to anyone who may be offended by my upper-case letters. I want to be charitable and loving because my only wish is to be as God wants me to be. But now I’m so frustrated and I am labeled as an idolater and that is going too far. This is not right. This is not showing respect to the Catholic Faith and all of us agreed to show respect when we became members of this forum.

 

[Debra_C]

Hi all! I am currently in the process of converting to Catholicism (previously Protestant) and am having a wonderful time learning Church teachings. Most teachings I am able to prayerfully accept, but the only one that I am seriously confused about is the use of the Brown Scapular. From what I’ve been reading online, the Brown Scapular was given to a member of the Church by Mary, with her promise that she would save its devout wearers from purgatory early.
What bothers/concerns me about the scapular is this: how can we be assured heaven by wearing a garment, albeit a blessed one? I know that the scapular is not supposed to be viewed as a magical object, but how can it not be when we are granted a lessened stay in Purgatory for wearing it?
I really don’t mean to be offensive on the subject, I’m just confused!
Any help on the subject would be greatly appreciated

Sources I’m reading from:
sistersofcarmel.com/brown-scapular-information.php

First, this is a private devotion, which you can choose to enter into or not. This is not something you must do to call yourself Catholic.

Second, it is not merely a matter of having the scapular blessed and wearing it. There is a daily devotion of prayer (the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin, if I am not mistaken, which involves saying prayers several times a day in conjunction with the Liturgy of the Hours or at minimum, a morning offering and a rosary daily) and participation in the sacraments that goes along with it. Wearing the little brown piece of cloth is only the outward sign of keeping this daily devotion.

 

[Fair_Lady]

So Mary had no choice in the matter? Mary, unlike Adam and Eve and the rest of all humanity, was made without free will in order to be forced by God to bear His Son?

What I glean from scripture is that Mary was told by an angel that she would bear God’s Son. It doesn’t sound like she was given a choice. My personal opinion (and that is all it is, a personal opinion) is that our all-knowing God chose someone whom He knew would be willing to go through the difficult circumstances that surrounded the pregnancy because she was a godly person in the first place. I think He would also have known that Mary would be a good mother for His Son.

That’s a new Marian doctrine I’ve never heard . How could Mary have “stayed true” then, as a humble servant, if she had no choice in the matter in the first place? You’re kind of contradicting yourself there.

I see your point, but what I’m getting at is that Mary was consistent in her attitude as a humble and obedient servant. The whole announcement from the angel must have been a huge surprise to her and I suppose she could have reacted wildly against what God had in plan for her. Instead she accepted the role that was given to her. There was nothing she could do to prevent the Holy Spirit from coming over her. That was in God’s plan and when He has decreed that something will be done, it will be done. Mary had no power against that.

So what’s the deal? You don’t believe in free will (Calvinist maybe?) You do believe in free will but just not for Mary?

I’m not a Calinist and I believe there is free will in the matter of salvation and many other things in life. Sometimes, though, God doesn’t give choices when He wants to involve mankind in order to fulfill His plans. When Jonah hedged against going to Ninevah, God put a fish in his path to take him there. When the people of the world needed a Saviour to pay the penalty for their sins, God provided His Son for the sole purpose of going to the cross to die there so we could be saved. When God needed an earthly mother for His Son, He chose Mary.

 

[LittleSoldier]

What I glean from scripture is that Mary was told by an angel that she would bear God’s Son. It doesn’t sound like she was given a choice. My personal opinion (and that is all it is, a personal opinion) is that our all-knowing God chose someone whom He knew would be willing to go through the difficult circumstances that surrounded the pregnancy because she was a godly person in the first place. I think He would also have known that Mary would be a good mother for His Son.

I see your point, but what I’m getting at is that Mary was consistent in her attitude as a humble and obedient servant. The whole announcement from the angel must have been a huge surprise to her and I suppose she could have reacted wildly against what God had in plan for her. Instead she accepted the role that was given to her. There was nothing she could do to prevent the Holy Spirit from coming over her. That was in God’s plan and when He has decreed that something will be done, it will be done. Mary had no power against that.

I’m not a Calinist and I believe there is free will in the matter of salvation and many other things in life. Sometimes, though, God doesn’t give choices when He wants to involve mankind in order to fulfill His plans. When Jonah hedged against going to Ninevah, God put a fish in his path to take him there. When the people of the world needed a Saviour to pay the penalty for their sins, God provided His Son for the sole purpose of going to the cross to die there so we could be saved. When God needed an earthly mother for His Son, He chose Mary.

Here are two statements you have made in this post:

“It doesn’t sound like she was given a choice.”

“…and I suppose she could have reacted wildly against what God had in plan for her.”

So are you saying that a loving God would have literally forced Himself upon this woman if she said “no” and screamed and reacted wildly? She could have done those things, you know. Do you know what that sort of action is called? I won’t post the word because it doesn’t belong in the same post with the words “loving” and “God.”

Mary had free will. We all have free will. To deny Mary a gift given to all human beings is an insult to her and to a loving God. Mary did what she did of her own free will.

Sancta Maria! Sancta Maria!
Mater dei! Ora pro nobis.

 

[Fair_Lady]

Here are two statements you have made in this post:

“It doesn’t sound like she was given a choice.”

“…and I suppose she could have reacted wildly against what God had in plan for her.”

So are you saying that a loving God would have literally forced Himself upon this woman if she said “no” and screamed and reacted wildly? She could have done those things, you know. Do you know what that sort of action is called? I won’t post the word because it doesn’t belong in the same post with the words “loving” and “God.”

Mary had free will. We all have free will. To deny Mary a gift given to all human beings is an insult to her and to a loving God. Mary did what she did of her own free will.

Of course we all have free will. My point is that sometimes God doesn’t give a person a choice because He a specific thing to accomplish and He has chosen that person to do as He says. Take for instance, Jonah. He said “no” to going to Ninevah. What does God do? He ships Jonah to Ninevah via a big fish. A total unexpected method of getting Jonah there, but who but God could orchestrate such strange circumstances to have Jonah where He wanted Jonah to be?

And what about Jesus? He knew the dreaded fate that awaited Him on the cross so as Mark 14:35&36 records it, his agony is apparent, but He knows what He must do: "He went a little farther, and fell on the ground, and prayed that if it were possible, the hour might pass from Him. And He said, “Abba, Father, all things are possible for You. Take this cup away from Me; nevertheless, not what I will, but what You will.”

I don’t know of a Bible version in which is states that Mary had a choice as to whether or not she would bear God’s Son. If you find one, I’d be interested in a quote. I only find a statement from the angel on behalf saying to the effect that Mary will bear the child. That was God’s plan and who is anyone to argue about it? But I also believe that God knew Mary’s heart and that she was an obedient servant of His. Perhaps that was why He chose her to be the mother of His only Son.

 

[Fair_Lady]

I don’t fear the Lord. Why should I fear my creator and my Savior? Why should I fear one who loves me so much that He gave His life for me? I don’t fear the Lord - I love the Lord. The Lord is my Light and my Salvation - whom should I fear?

Before I take the time for the rest of your post, I’m wondering if you’ve studied what it means to “fear the Lord”. Here’s a good webpage that speaks to that: ableever.net/Exhortation/Fear_Of_The_Lord/fear_of_the_lord.html

I’d be interested to know if you might want to rephrase your statement after reading the article.

 

[Michael_Vernon]

I loath to introduce here a term attributed to John Calvin, but I don’t know another one that expresses this idea as well: “irresistible grace.” I don’t mean that God deprives us of choice in some situations. Rather, I mean that in some situations God offers something that he knows the human will find irresistible, like offering meatloaf and mashed potatoes or cake and ice cream to someone who has not eaten anything for two weeks.

 

[LittleSoldier]

I’d be interested to know if you might want to rephrase your statement after reading the article.

Here is part of what I found in a somewhat confusing, vague, and poorly written article:

Today, it seems to me,** most prefer to dwell upon the love of God, yet find no durable comfort in it.** Love of the world pervades the visible church, instead of a hatred for sin. Fear of man prevails, and God is a convenience for Sundays and emergencies. There is no comfort in such a thing.

On the contrary, I find much comfort when dwelling upon the love of God, and this comfort is durable.

Many are persuaded today that the word fear really means respect. There is a type of superficial respect to God, that does not affect how one lives. God is not in all the thoughts; when the world and the belly are gods of the heart: this is truly wicked, and glory is in shame.
What does a lack of the fear of the Lord look like?** It is sins lightly, casually, and is either brazen or apathetic when confronted with sin.**

The last sentence in this quote doesn’t even make sense!

It sins carelessly, obstinately, persistently. While it trembles at the displeasure of men, and swoons in their praise, it is callous to God, unconcerned with being offensive to God, unconcerned for His pleasure. It says, “No one will know. No one is perfect. Don’t be so judgmental and legalistic!” It complains at exhortation, despises reproof and instruction, refuses to submit, seeks its own way, and justifies itself.

And what does the fear of the Lord look like? “The fear of the LORD is to hate evil.” (Pr 8:13) Fundamentally, it is a disposition to hate sin. It is a hatred of sin that moves one to depart from it: “by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.” (Pr 16:6). The fear of the Lord will not disobey God, regardless of the consequences. It will seek to know God’s will and follow after Him. It loves instruction in holiness and the knowledge of God, of His ways and of His pleasure.

This makes it appear that “fear of the Lord” is some sort of creature with volition and emotions. I agree somewhat with what is written here, but I believe that hatred of sin should not exist because of fear of God’s wrath; rather it should exist because sin hurts and offends God who loves us.

**What moves us to fear the Lord as believers? It is a knowledge of the terror of the Lord.

God’s response to sin is violent. It is a deep rage, a profound hatred. It moves powerfully in the Almighty, whose very voice shakes the earth. Moses heard Him speak and said, “I exceedingly fear and quake.” God spares none of His immense power in avenging Himself upon sin, or in exposing His passion against it. The thick dark blasts of an eternal hell prepared for the devil and His angels await all who caress their sin, regardless of their religious profession.

God’s hatred is toward the sinner himself**, for this is the root of sin: “Thou hatest all workers of iniquity.” (Ps 5:5) There is no understanding of sin in God, no lenience for it, no compassion for it, and there is no tolerance for those who take pleasure in it. There is no acceptable place or time or occaision to engage in sin, and there is no place to be hid in it. God will seek out every spec of sin in His domain and utterly destroy it. The sin in you, and the sin in me.

What a horrible God! We should be quaking in terror. God’s hatred is toward the sinner himself? No. God always loves us - ALWAYS! The above quote implies that there is no forgiveness, no understanding (from an omniscient God?), no compassion, no way for us to obtain mercy. We are evil, we sin, and we can’t hide from God’s wrath, even though we want to? No. Absolutely no.

When God begins to deal with sin in His creation, everything will be moved. When the time for His judgement is come, the Day of His vengeance, earth and heaven will flee God’s face for the terror of it, “and there was found no place for them.” (Rev 20:11) When God looks with holy displeasure about the created realm, He will find every trace of sin and eradicate it mercilessly.

Oh! The dreadful face of an angry God!

Oh! The glorious face of a God of love! How beautiful! How perfect! In God we will find true and complete peace, yes, even those who sinned against Him. When we are sorry for our sins and confess those sins, God pardons us.

Men are crushed by the appearance of His holy face when He is at rest; no mortal can see it and live. (Ex 33:20) He destroys the wicked with the blast of His nose. (Job 4:9) Who can tell the strength of His holy arm? (Is 63:5) What will it be when He is rises from the throne filled with indignant rage, to take vengeance on His enemies? (Is 53:6) We cannot even begin to fathom this.

He has prepared the environs of hell to reflect His hatred of sin. It is dark and black. (Jude 1:13) It is filled with fire that is so extremely hot that no light springs from it. Such intensity is not known to exist naturally, not even in the sun! There is even a toxic chemical intensity to it (brimstone, sulfur) to torture the natural frame of those who dwell there. (Rev 21:8) In this place He is preparing to crush and trample His enemies, everyone who sins against Him (Rom 2:8-9), in fantastic unending fury. (Is 63:3)

He is looking forward to that Day . (Is 53:4) We should be too.

So God is looking forward to the day, excuse me, Day, when He will crush and trample everyone who sins against Him, in fantastic unending fury?

----continued in next post----

 

[LittleSoldier]

----continuation of last post----

Why would God enjoy such a thing? Why would a God who created us in love actually look forward to sending everyone who sins against Him to hell. That is not God, Fair Lady. That is a monster and if I believed what the words on this website are telling me I would take my own life, right at this instant, because I am a sinner and so are you and there is no “out” for us. What a horrible, cruel, insane God! Is this what you think God is? He’s not, you know. HE LOVES US. AND HIS MERCY IS SO VAST THAT ALL OUR SINS, NO MATTER HOW AWFUL, ARE BUT A DROP OF WATER IN AN INFINITE SEA OF HIS LOVE.

**The fear of the Lord… What is it? It is an internal disposition that produces emotions of fear, dread, and dismay at the thought of displeasing the eternal God. It is a deeply unsettling uneasiness at the potential of displeasing Him. This disposition makes it impossible to sin against Him lightly, wholeheartedly, persistently. It extinguishes carelessness and impudence and self-will. It drives one to seek the face of God in humility with a desire to know the will of God, to find God’s will, and then to follow and obey His will.

Certainly, in the fear of the Lord, there is comfort. It is the comfort of eternal safety, of strong confidence (14:26). It brings the assurance of being grounded on the rock (Matt 7:25), the hope of God’s ultimate purpose being fulfilled in us, the joy of His name being magnified, the fullness of His good pleasure in us.**

I see no comfort in these words. I see terror.

Learn to fear the Lord. Go to those who fear Him and company with them. (Ps 34:11) Meditate upon His matchless strength. Spend time thinking about His coming judgment upon men (Is 2:19), and remember how He spared not His own Son when dealing with your sin. Ask Him for grace to fear Him. Ask Him to reveal His terror to you, His fear, and seek to know it. He will.

Learn to love the Lord. Learn to be as Christ-like as we possibly can be. Follow Jesus’ example. Love His mother, as He did. Love our neighbors, as He did. Love ourselves, as He did. Accept the wisdom of His sacrifice, which was based in love and is good.

“Let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: for our God is a consuming fire.” (Heb 12:28b-29]

…for our God is a consuming fire. Yes, a fire that burns with love for us.

I know what “fear” means in the context of the scripture passage you provided. Here is an explanation which can explain much better than my paltry attempts:

An awful or an awesome life?

In religious terms, Sacred Anxiety has been called the “fear of God.” As a child, this phrase troubled me. Why should I be “scared” of a loving God? The only kind of God I could imagine being “afraid” of was a wrathful, punishing deity. I could never understand why having a “fear of God” was considered a good thing.

Only much later did I begin to understand that this phrase, like many others relating to anxiety, suffered from the use of the term fear. A much more accurate rendering would be “the awe of God.” The word awe has a rich and complex bouquet of meanings. Awe refers to the uplifting, yet unsettling blend of reverence, dread, and wonder that is evoked by the mysterium tremendum – the sublime apprehension of the vast universal intelligence that is beyond our understanding. This is the numinous dread-ecstasy that sends shivers up our spine when we stand in the presence of the ultimate reality.

Awe induces a bodily sensation of “spiritual shivering” that began with Adam and Eve’s first encounter with God. This is the “quaking” of the Quakers and the “shaking” of the Shakers – the vibratory sensations that accompany the inflowing of divine energy. Two thousand years ago Plato described the experience: “First a shudder runs through you, and then the old awe creeps over you.”

Rudolf Otto, the German theologian, observed that this emotion “is something more than ‘natural,’ ordinary fear, It implies that the mysterious is already beginning to loom before the mind, to touch the feelings.”

According to Otto, “The awe or ‘dread’ may indeed be so overwhelmingly great that it seems to penetrate to the very marrow,” such as during a time of great crisis or ecstatic experience. “But it may also steal upon us almost unobserved as – a mere fleeting shadow passing across our mood.”

This gentler and more subtle shivering may occur while watching an especially vibrant sunset. Or it may overtake us during a tender moment while holding a sleeping infant. At these times the natural and ordinary human emotions become elevated into transcendent sensations of spiritual awe.

The awe of Sacred Anxiety includes a sense of the majestic, the inexorable, the overwhelmingly terrifying, the inexpressible. Though it frightens us, it also fascinates us. We want to turn away, and we do; yet a moment later we turn to it again.

The mystic Jacob Boehme confessed, “I can neither write nor tell of what sort of Exaltation the triumphing of the Spirit is. In the midst of death, life is reborn.”

Our response when we are visited by Sacred Anxiety is crucial. Goethe wrote that “Awe is the best of man.” Yet, its unfamiliarity triggers our fears and often prevents us from surrendering to it.

----continued in next post (the last one, I promise!)----

 

[LittleSoldier]

----continuation of last post----

The Shakers symbolized the rigid ego whose prideful resistance prevents the infusion of divine grace as “Old Stiff.” Rigidity and hardening of the ego were equated with death and alienation from God. If we resist the temporary dissolution of the ego during a spontaneous experience of awe, we may experience terrifying feelings of “falling apart” and “going crazy.” We may feel attacked by a nameless dread that something horrible is about to happen.

Just look at what our fears have done to the word itself: The word “aweful,” meaning full of awe, has, with the passage of centuries, become our word “awful,” meaning something terribly bad. When we resist awe, we experience it as something awful. When God knocks on our door, our fear of the unknown makes us rush to lock the door.

Awe is a spiritual awareness that hums in the background of every moment of our existence. Awe is a an angel who invites us into God’s presence. If we learn to trust her, she has the power to transform the awful into the awesome and to lead us home to paradise.

gerzon.com/resources/awesome.html

I left my post as it was, knowing that you might disagree with what I posted. As it is, I really have little idea as to how your mind works when you interpret scripture and why you feel you have the authority to do so, while I don’t, even though we both believe wholeheartedly that we are guided by the Holy Spirit.

I won’t rephrase my post because I stand by what I said. But I will add the following: I am not afraid of God, as God loves me enough to create me and want me to live with Him forever. I fear any action of mine which hurts and offends God.

God is not a horrible sadistic monster. "Whoever fails to love does not know God, because God is love. [1 John 4:8]

How can Love Itself be unloving?

NOTE: All bolding in quotations is mine.
APOLOGY: Please accept my apology for (1) writing such a long post (I have never written one as long as this one before) and; (2) for allowing the thread to be taken off-topic. I didn’t mean for this to happen. I wanted to express my appreciation to all who posted information about the Brown Scapular. I didn’t expect my faith in the Catholic Church to be questioned and attacked in such a way.

Sancta Maria! Sancta Maria!
Mater dei! Ora pro nobis.