Having trouble accepting Biblical numbers

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Not the book, but various accounts of ages/times/sizes.

Did it really take 100 years to build the Ark? Could Abraham really have been 100 years when Isaac was conceived? And, then he had a whole new family with a new wife? Sarah was 65 when she caught the eye of the pharoah?

Were there really 1,000,000 Hebrews in Egypt at the time of the Exodus? How big was the population of Egypt? I’ve read there wasn’t even a million people in Egypt at that time. Who’s right?

So, do I just pray for more faith? Or, can I disregard some of these numbers that cause me to be skeptical?
 
Well, it’s often hard to tell if some parts of the Bible are being literal or not. However, who’s to say that God didn’t allow people to live much longer in those days? Personally, I think that most of the numbers in the Bible are literal and that God allowed people in the early Biblical days to live as long as 1000 years.
 
Not the book, but various accounts of ages/times/sizes.

Did it really take 100 years to build the Ark? Could Abraham really have been 100 years when Isaac was conceived? And, then he had a whole new family with a new wife? Sarah was 65 when she caught the eye of the pharoah?

Were there really 1,000,000 Hebrews in Egypt at the time of the Exodus? How big was the population of Egypt? I’ve read there wasn’t even a million people in Egypt at that time. Who’s right?

So, do I just pray for more faith? Or, can I disregard some of these numbers that cause me to be skeptical?
Rome itself had over 1 million people in ancient times. Egypt was the breadbasket of the world during the Exodus time? Why couldn’t 3 million Hebrews have lived in the land of Goshen, which was approximately the size of say, Mississippi.
 
You need to read the book via Catholic principles, not Protestant pprinciples. (Not trying to be nasty.) Everything worthwhile follows certain principles to achieve correct results. 🙂

Read Constitution on Divine Revelation, Dei Verbum, for starters. It’s not that long. You can read it in one sitting. Here’s the link:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

The three main principles Catholics should use when reading the Bible are as follows:
  1. The Bible should be read as a united whole, not in snippets.
  2. The Bible should be read in light of Holy Tradition, from whence it came. (Not everything Jesus did or said was written down in the Bible. See John 21:25. Yet, Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach everything He had taught them. See Matt. 28:20. The difference between the two is Holy Tradition (a.k.a., oral tradition). See 2 Thes 2:15)
  3. The Bible should be read in light of the analogy of the faith as guided by the Magisterium of the Church (the Pope and the bishops in league with him).
If someone has degrees in all the ancient languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin) and ancient history, but doesn’t interpret the Bible with the same Holy Spirit that inspired it, then they are still nothing more than an amateur and very vulnerable to error in their interpretation. This is what Protestantism is, and that’s why they must, by design, constantly splinter into more and more man-made denominations.

If you are really interested in knowing how to read the Bible correctly, you can download the talks by Fr. John Corapi, “Word of God,” from the following link:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Fr_John_Corapi.html

There are six talks on this topic and I think they’re excellent.
 
The human words used in scripture are … human therefore limited
They are the vehicle of the message not the message
It is the message that is inspired and inerrant

Seek the message and don’t get hung up on the bike the messenger rode on to deliver the message
 
The human words used in scripture are … human therefore limited
They are the vehicle of the message not the message
It is the message that is inspired and inerrant

Seek the message and don’t get hung up on the bike the messenger rode on to deliver the message
Hence,

Abraham and Sarah were old, way past the age of child-bearing?
The Israelites were many, way too many to survive an extended period of time in the wasteland?

I could live with that.
 
Hence,

Abraham and Sarah were old, way past the age of child-bearing?
The Israelites were many, way too many to survive an extended period of time in the wasteland?

I could live with that.
yes
 
Hence,

Abraham and Sarah were old, way past the age of child-bearing?
The Israelites were many, way too many to survive an extended period of time in the wasteland?

I could live with that.
yes, I agree–much more palatable to my brain and common sense!

But, is it okay to interpret it that way? Or, a cop-out?
 
You need to read the book via Catholic principles, not Protestant pprinciples. (Not trying to be nasty.) Everything worthwhile follows certain principles to achieve correct results. 🙂

Read Constitution on Divine Revelation, Dei Verbum, for starters. It’s not that long. You can read it in one sitting. Here’s the link:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

The three main principles Catholics should use when reading the Bible are as follows:
  1. The Bible should be read as a united whole, not in snippets.
  2. The Bible should be read in light of Holy Tradition, from whence it came. (Not everything Jesus did or said was written down in the Bible. See John 21:25. Yet, Jesus commanded the Apostles to teach everything He had taught them. See Matt. 28:20. The difference between the two is Holy Tradition (a.k.a., oral tradition). See 2 Thes 2:15)
  3. The Bible should be read in light of the analogy of the faith as guided by the Magisterium of the Church (the Pope and the bishops in league with him).
If someone has degrees in all the ancient languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin) and ancient history, but doesn’t interpret the Bible with the same Holy Spirit that inspired it, then they are still nothing more than an amateur and very vulnerable to error in their interpretation. This is what Protestantism is, and that’s why they must, by design, constantly splinter into more and more man-made denominations.

If you are really interested in knowing how to read the Bible correctly, you can download the talks by Fr. John Corapi, “Word of God,” from the following link:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Fr_John_Corapi.html

There are six talks on this topic and I think they’re excellent.
👋 Hi Scopby!

Totally Catholic here!
 
numbers in Hebrew are not from numerials like in English. Those numbers comes from markings around Hebrew letters. Those markings do not exist in Biblical Hebrew texts. Scholars had to guess at what markings belonged with the letters to come up with numbers. So, it is possible that some of the numbers are not correct.

It has been estimated that if you took every man, woman and child today and gave them a two foot by two foot square to stand in they all can fit in Oakland County here in Michigan and the farmland in Livingston County alone can support them food wise. Needless, to say human waste would be shipped to Wayne County.
 
yes, I agree–much more palatable to my brain and common sense!

But, is it okay to interpret it that way? Or, a cop-out?
I don’t think so, for what are you missing out on? God still worked a miracle giving Isaac to Abraham and Sarah. God still worked numerous miracles by guiding Israel through the wilderness.

What I would have a problem is if you were a teacher and taught that these numbers can’t be true, and said that my above rationalization is the way it really is.
 
Were there really 1,000,000 Hebrews in Egypt at the time of the Exodus? How big was the population of Egypt? I’ve read there wasn’t even a million people in Egypt at that time. Who’s right?

So, do I just pray for more faith? Or, can I disregard some of these numbers that cause me to be skeptical?
This one I would attempt to answer.

Reading it on a plain level, Exodus (12:37-38) gives the indication that the Israelites numbered “about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children,” plus many non-Israelites and livestock. Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550. The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the “mixed multitude” of non-Israelites would have indeed numbered some one to two million people in total.

As for the population in Egypt, trying to pin down a precise period of time is hard since, first of all, we don’t even know for sure when the Exodus took place.

The population count of Egypt under the first dynasties (ca. 3050-2686 BC) was possibly between one and two million inhabitants, rising slowly until the end of the Old Kingdom (ca. 2686-2181 BC) when a century of low Nile floods and the decay of the central power with its role of hoarding and redistributing grain surpluses caused famines which killed many of the very young and the old. There are no records of similarly long periods of what looks like population decline after the restoration of order which marked the beginning of the Middle Kingdom (ca. 2134 BC). Over the centuries there was a steady influx of foreigners, often driven by drought or overpopulation in their homelands. You have the Nubians, Asiatics (Canaanites?), the Hyksos, the Sea Peoples, the Libyans and whatnot. They can have added but relatively little to the population size: the numbers of these migrants and conquerors were not very large compared to the indigenous Egyptian population, and many of them were mostly absorbed over the centuries after having had separate identities for a few generations.

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/people/egypt-population-growth.gif
OK: Old Kingdom
MK: Middle Kingdom
NK: New Kingdom
LP: Late Period
It has been estimated that at the beginning of the pharaonic period the population count was about one million, and that at time of the Roman conquest about 5 million people lived in Egypt, give or take a million or so.
The sizes of the dips during the Intermediate Periods are arbitrary.

There is still some disagreement about the date of the Exodus: according to the various estimates, it could have happened somewhere between the 17th to 13th century BC. In which case, according to the above graph (courtesy of this site), there would have been two to three million people in Egypt.
 
From a linguistic standpoint (BTW, this is also something that Fr. Mitch Pacwa pointed out in EWTN’s Open Line of last week’s Wednesday I believe), the Hebrew word for one ‘thousand’, 'eleph, also has the meaning of (military) ‘unit’, ‘clan’, ‘squad’, or ‘family’. It is used in the latter sense in passages such as Judges 6:15 and 1 Samuel 10:19. In this usage, 'eleph does not represent a literal number, but rather a major subgroup. In a few cases, such as in Deuteronomy 7:13; 28:4, 18, 51; Psalm 8:7; Isaiah 30:24, it even seems to mean a flock or ‘herd’ of cattle - the word 'eleph after all seemingly being related to , ‘ox’'aleph (also the name of the very first letter of the Proto-Canaanite alphabet and its descendants - incidentally, it was a hieroglyph of an ox’s head!). Back then, farmers would keep a herd of cows by letting them graze with one 'aleph, ox. The ox protected the whole herd, and the cows therefore tended instinctively not to stray far from him. Thus wherever one saw a herd of cattle, one normally saw it arrayed around an ox. By simple economy of speech, 'eleph came to mean ‘herd’ in general, and from there, because ‘herd’ connotes a large group, the various definitions - ‘unit’, ‘clan’, ‘tribe’, ‘division’, etc. - came into being. Then, for purposes of numerical counting, 'eleph was borrowed to denote ‘thousand’ in the decimal system.

'Eleph also served another meaning in the ancient Israelite army. The army was organized by units of size that are called by words that were all or mostly all borrowed originally from other meanings (cf. Deuteronomy 1:15). You have the “tribe” (shebet, ‘staff’, ‘scepter’, ‘branch’, ‘rod’); the 'eleph; me’ah, the “hundred”; chamisshim (plural of chamesh, ‘five’), the “fifty”; and 'asarah, “ten” (from 'asar). There are those who believe that these units were groups of varying sizes that served under a ranked leader. For example, the commander of the 'eleph would be known as the 'alluph. Now, this brings the question as to how big a single military 'eleph could have been. It is believed that it is composed of all the men of fighting age that a single tribal subset (i.e. a family) or village or district could produce. The clincher is, we don’t know how many fighting-age men a subset could produce in those days: it could be as low as twenty, or, in the case of more smaller divisions, only a handful. For general purposes of calculation, an 'eleph is usually understood to be composed of not larger than fifteen men at the average.

Hence, supposing that Exodus 12 does use 'eleph in this way, we could thus understand it not as a literal “six hundred thousand” but “six hundred families/squads/clans/units”. And if we suppose that 'eleph is used in the military sense, it would imply that the Israelites who left Egypt may have numbered at around 5,500 to 7,200 fighting men. Add to that the number of wives, children and other people who could not fight either due to age or infirmity and we would arrive at 22,000-27,500, or even 28,000-36,000 Israelites who fled from Egypt. Still a large and formidable number, but not too numerous by modern standards. Large enough to require the provisions of manna and water and to form a decent fighting force, yet still small and compact enough to be able to encamp around the Tabernacle in the various places described in the Bible.
 
From a linguistic standpoint (BTW, this is also something that Fr. Mitch Pacwa pointed out in EWTN’s Open Line of last week’s Wednesday I believe), the Hebrew word for one ‘thousand’, 'eleph, also has the meaning of (military) ‘unit’, ‘clan’, ‘squad’, or ‘family’. It is used in the latter sense in passages such as Judges 6:15 and 1 Samuel 10:19. In this usage, 'eleph does not represent a literal number, but rather a major subgroup. In a few cases, such as in Deuteronomy 7:13; 28:4, 18, 51; Psalm 8:7; Isaiah 30:24, it even seems to mean a flock or ‘herd’ of cattle - the word 'eleph after all seemingly being related to 'aleph, ‘ox’ (also the name of the very first letter of the Proto-Canaanite alphabet and its descendants - incidentally, it was a hieroglyph of an ox’s head!). Back then, farmers would keep a herd of cows by letting them graze with one 'aleph, ox. The ox protected the whole herd, and the cows therefore tended instinctively not to stray far from him. Thus wherever one saw a herd of cattle, one normally saw it arrayed around an ox. By simple economy of speech, 'eleph came to mean ‘herd’ in general, and from there, because ‘herd’ connotes a large group, the various definitions - ‘unit’, ‘clan’, ‘tribe’, ‘division’, etc. - came into being. Then, for purposes of numerical counting, 'eleph was borrowed to denote ‘thousand’ in the decimal system.

'Eleph also served another meaning in the ancient Israelite army. The army was organized by units of size that are called by words that were all or mostly all borrowed originally from other meanings (cf. Deuteronomy 1:15). You have the “tribe” (shebet, ‘staff’, ‘scepter’, ‘branch’, ‘rod’); the 'eleph; me’ah, the “hundred”; chamisshim (plural of chamesh, ‘five’), the “fifty”; and 'asarah, “ten” (from 'asar). There are those who believe that these units were groups of varying sizes that served under a ranked leader. For example, the commander of the 'eleph would be known as the 'alluph. Now, this brings the question as to how big a single military 'eleph could have been. It is believed that it is composed of all the men of fighting age that a single tribal subset (i.e. a family) or village or district could produce. The clincher is, we don’t know how many fighting-age men a subset could produce in those days: it could be as low as twenty, or, in the case of more smaller divisions, only a handful. For general purposes of calculation, an 'eleph is usually understood to be composed of not larger than fifteen men at the average.

Hence, supposing that Exodus 12 does use 'eleph in this way, we could thus understand it not as a literal “six hundred thousand” but “six hundred families/squads/clans/units”. And if we suppose that 'eleph is used in the military sense, it would imply that the Israelites who left Egypt may have numbered at around 5,500 to 7,200 fighting men. Add to that the number of wives, children and other people who could not fight either due to age or infirmity and we would arrive at 22,000-27,500, or even 28,000-36,000 Israelites who fled from Egypt. Still a large and formidable number, but not too numerous by modern standards. Large enough to require the provisions of manna and water and to form a decent fighting force, yet still small and compact enough to be able to encamp around the Tabernacle in the various places described in the Bible.
Thank you, this explanation makes much more sense to me. I’m printing this out.
 
This one I would attempt to answer.

Reading it on a plain level, Exodus (12:37-38) gives the indication that the Israelites numbered “about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides women and children,” plus many non-Israelites and livestock. Numbers 1:46 gives a more precise total of 603,550. The 600,000, plus wives, children, the elderly, and the “mixed multitude” of non-Israelites would have indeed numbered some one to two million people in total.

As for the population in Egypt, trying to pin down a precise period of time is hard since, first of all, we don’t even know for sure when the Exodus took place.

The population count of Egypt under the first dynasties (ca. 3050-2686 BC) was possibly between one and two million inhabitants, rising slowly until the end of the Old Kingdom (ca. 2686-2181 BC) when a century of low Nile floods and the decay of the central power with its role of hoarding and redistributing grain surpluses caused famines which killed many of the very young and the old. There are no records of similarly long periods of what looks like population decline after the restoration of order which marked the beginning of the Middle Kingdom (ca. 2134 BC). Over the centuries there was a steady influx of foreigners, often driven by drought or overpopulation in their homelands. You have the Nubians, Asiatics (Canaanites?), the Hyksos, the Sea Peoples, the Libyans and whatnot. They can have added but relatively little to the population size: the numbers of these migrants and conquerors were not very large compared to the indigenous Egyptian population, and many of them were mostly absorbed over the centuries after having had separate identities for a few generations.

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/people/egypt-population-growth.gif
OK: Old Kingdom
MK: Middle Kingdom
NK: New Kingdom
LP: Late Period
It has been estimated that at the beginning of the pharaonic period the population count was about one million, and that at time of the Roman conquest about 5 million people lived in Egypt, give or take a million or so.
The sizes of the dips during the Intermediate Periods are arbitrary.

There is still some disagreement about the date of the Exodus: according to the various estimates, it could have happened somewhere between the 17th to 13th century BC. In which case, according to the above graph (courtesy of this site), there would have been two to three million people in Egypt.
Very interesting. I’ve been listening to a series of lectures of Ancient Egyptian history and the Egyptologist professor said that during the period of the exodus, the population of Egypt as a whole was about a million. So, if it were a later period than he surmised, it’s possible that the Egypt was much bigger. Still a million would have been a tremendous part of their population. How long would it have taken to cross the sea of reeds?
 
It’s not a cop-out. See the Catechism para 109-114.
Of course, I know that!! How did I forget? These numbers have been cropping up lately in my Bible study and flinging doubts on me!!

Thanks, reading through the catechism on this topic is very helpful. 🙂
 
numbers in Hebrew are not from numerials like in English. Those numbers comes from markings around Hebrew letters. Those markings do not exist in Biblical Hebrew texts. Scholars had to guess at what markings belonged with the letters to come up with numbers. So, it is possible that some of the numbers are not correct.
Correct. Hebrew, like Greek (and Cyrillic, Ge’ez, Armenian and Arabic to name a few) uses the letters of the alphabet to double as numbers.

But then again, you do need to remember that in a number of instances, the numbers are spelled out in full (something a number of translations often obscure). To give an example, Numbers 1:45-46 (YLT): “And they are, all those numbered of the sons of Israel, by the house of their fathers, from a son of twenty years and upward, every one going out to the host in Israel, yea, all those numbered are six hundred thousand, and three thousand, and five hundred and fifty.” The Hebrew text does not use letters here, but spells it out in full as שֵׁשׁ־מֵא֥וֹת אֶ֖לֶף וּשְׁלֹ֣שֶׁת אֲלָפִ֑ים וַחֲמֵ֥שׁ מֵא֖וֹת וַחֲמִשִּֽׁים׃ šēš-mē’wōṯ ’elef ûšəlōšeṯ ’ălāfîm waḥămēš mē’wōṯ waḥămiššîm. Literally rendered with no care for proper English grammar: ‘six-hundreds ‘thousands’ ('eleph) and threes ‘thousands’ and five-hundreds and ‘fives’ (i.e. fifty).’
 
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