Having trouble accepting this

  • Thread starter Thread starter ChurchSuffering
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

ChurchSuffering

Guest
I was always raised be taught that your either Catholic or your not, and if you are then you are in complete agreement with every one of the Churches teachings. That there’s no saying “I’m Catholic but…I don’t agree with this this and this”

I have always agreed with the Church on everything. But lately I have come upon something that I am having a hard time with, and that’s with capital punishment. I just don’t see how man has any right to decide when ones life must be ended. I mean I realize that they may be a threat to society, but I don’t see how that justify for the taking of their lives. I find it very hard to accept the fact that the Church allows this! I see it as something that only God is able to judge. Please help me understand.
 
I also do not, can not agree with capital punishment. I never have even before I came home to the church.
it is not part of me. I am a retired nurse and always worked to maintain life not agree to believe in or be a part of ending it.
I don’t have knowledge this is against church teaching 🤷 where is this information?
God said Thou shall not kill.

Blessings!
 
There have been a few threads about DP and CP lately in case you also want to read them.
 
ChurchSuffering said:
I was always raised be taught that your either Catholic or your not, and if you are then you are in complete agreement with every one of the Churches teachings. That there’s no saying “I’m Catholic but…I don’t agree with this this and this”

I have always agreed with the Church on everything. But lately I have come upon something that I am having a hard time with, and that’s with capital punishment. I just don’t see how man has any right to decide when ones life must be ended. I mean I realize that they may be a threat to society, but I don’t see how that justify for the taking of their lives. I find it very hard to accept the fact that the Church allows this! I see it as something that only God is able to judge. Please help me understand.
Click to expand...
Do you suppose that one man has a right to kill another to protect an innocent person from being killed by the second man?

If you agree that killing a perpetrator to save the life of an innocent person is licit, then you have to agree that the person doing so is right BECAUSE they have a “right” to determine that the killing was necessary because they “decided” there was no other option.

The Church’s position on capital punishment is very much an extension of the right to act in self-defense.

If a society (through its legitimate judicial system) determines that taking the life of an individual is necessary to save the lives of future victims because the society is otherwise powerless to do so, then capital punishment is within the right of that society to determine.

If someone is about to kill another person, are you going to leave the fate of the innocent person in the hands of God, claiming that he alone was capable of deciding that the life of the innocent person should be saved when it was placed in jeopardy by the potential murderer?
 
Vicarious self defense.

Should not be necessary in modern society in most cases.

Peace
 
Peter_Plato said:
Do you suppose that one man has a right to kill another to protect an innocent person from being killed by the second man?

If you agree that killing a perpetrator to save the life of an innocent person is licit, then you have to agree that the person doing so is right BECAUSE they have a “right” to determine that the killing was necessary because they “decided” there was no other option.

The Church’s position on capital punishment is very much an extension of the right to act in self-defense.

If a society (through its legitimate judicial system) determines that taking the life of an individual is necessary to save the lives of future victims because the society is otherwise powerless to do so, then capital punishment is within the right of that society to determine.

If someone is about to kill another person, are you going to leave the fate of the innocent person in the hands of God, claiming that he alone was capable of deciding that the life of the innocent person should be saved when it was placed in jeopardy by the potential murderer?
Click to expand...
I get what you are saying. But who’s to say that the man sitting on death row hasn’t had a change of heart? Whereas this man coming at you with a knife, you know is going to kill you. I’m not saying that we should let every person on death row walk out and hope for the best. But nobody can say where that persons mind and soul are.
 
ChurchSuffering said:
I get what you are saying. But who’s to say that the man sitting on death row hasn’t had a change of heart? Whereas this man coming at you with a knife, you know is going to kill you. I’m not saying that we should let every person on death row walk out and hope for the best. But nobody can say where that persons mind and soul are.
Click to expand...
The Church’s position on capital punishment isn’t about a particular person facing execution, it is about an “in principle” right that a legitimate state has to protect citizens from the threat of death - up to and including the execution of those who threaten the lives of citizens and no other way exists to stop them.

This does not mean the state must execute anyone nor does it mean that the state ought to execute those whose status is questionable, merely that the state is not wrong if it were to duly decide that a particular person is a legitimate threat to citizens and no other means to remove that threat exists.

To insist that there are some persons in death row who should not be executed because they may be innocent or they do not pose an immanent threat does not nullify the principle that the Church proposes to be true.

The principle is that IF the person is an immanent threat AND there is no other means to relinquish that threat, execution is a legitimate option. That is basically the principle of
legitimate self-defense extended to the state.
 
Peter_Plato said:
The Church’s position on capital punishment isn’t about a particular person facing execution, it is about an “in principle” right that a legitimate state has to protect citizens from the threat of death - up to and including the execution of those who threaten the lives of citizens and no other way exists to stop them.

This does not mean the state must execute anyone nor does it mean that the state ought to execute those whose status is questionable, merely that the state is not wrong if it were to duly decide that a particular person is a legitimate threat to citizens and no other means to remove that threat exists.

To insist that there are some persons in death row who should not be executed because they may be innocent or they do not pose an immanent threat does not nullify the principle that the Church proposes to be true.

The principle is that IF the person is an immanent threat AND there is no other means to relinquish that threat, execution is a legitimate option. That is basically the principle of
legitimate self-defense extended to the state.
Click to expand...
I understand your points.

I just don’t see how the Church can be strictly pro-life, but then say it’s okay to kill someone when they are a threat. It almost hypocritical.
 
hazcompat said:
Vicarious self defense.

Should not be necessary in modern society in most cases.

Peace
Click to expand...
You are welcome to move to Europe where if you kill a person that entered your house in the middle of the night to steal or even kill you, YOU go to jail.

And this is NOT an hypothetical it did happen in northern Italy. The person that inflicted the death in self defence was given a jail sentence AND has to pay DAMAGES to the thief’s family.
Is that modern enough? :confused:

.
 
ChurchSuffering said:
I understand your points.

I just don’t see how the Church can be strictly pro-life, but then say it’s okay to kill someone when they are a threat. It almost hypocritical.
Click to expand...
Easy! the Church upholds the 5th Commandment.

Exodus 20:13 ου φονευσεις “You shall not murder”

There is a big difference between murder and killing.
According to the merriam-webster dictionary:
Click to expand...
Murder:
The crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.
Click to expand...
Kill:
To deprive of life : cause the death of
Click to expand...
GOD recognizes that you have the right of self preservation, this is why HE also allows war, if the goal is the self preservation of society.

Killing in self defence should ALWAYS be the last resort, same as with war.
It is NOT hypocritical.

.
 
JerryZ said:
Easy! the Church upholds the 5th Commandment.

Exodus 20:13 ου φονευσεις “You shall not murder”

There is a big difference between murder and killing.

GOD recognizes that you have the right of self preservation, this is why HE also allows war, if the goal is the self preservation of society.

Killing in self defence should ALWAYS be the last resort, same as with war.
It is NOT hypocritical.

.
Click to expand...
You’re right it should be. So why, when you have a murderer, sitting in prison should be executed? He is sitting there defenseless, he is not a threat when he is sitting behind bars.
 
ChurchSuffering said:
You’re right it should be. So why, when you have a murderer, sitting in prison should be executed? He is sitting there defenseless, he is not a threat when he is sitting behind bars.
Click to expand...
So, are you claiming that there are no murders done inside of prisons? No violent attacks done? Or gang leaders that have never ordered executions while they are imprisoned?
 
ChurchSuffering said:
You’re right it should be. So why, when you have a murderer, sitting in prison should be executed? He is sitting there defenseless, he is not a threat when he is sitting behind bars.
Click to expand...
Uhmmm OK as it has been pointed out at nauseam, it is licit for the state to impose the death penalty on someone who has commited a heinous crime.

He/She is not an innocent person.

The Church wishes that no one be put to death, however SHE (the Church) cannot outright condemn the right, that the state has to impose it for the protection of society.

Because this right comes straight out of Tradition and the Bible itself.

Same applies to war. NO ONE should wish for war. Sometimes it is the only remedy left to us. Pray that one day wars and murders be no more!
That day truly the Kingdom of GOD will have fully manifested on earth. 👍

.
 
ChurchSuffering said:
You’re right it should be. So why, when you have a murderer, sitting in prison should be executed? He is sitting there defenseless, he is not a threat when he is sitting behind bars.
Click to expand...
I entirely agree with you.

I accept (or at least understand) the principal that to kill in self-defense can be reasonable, but when it’s entirely possible to incarcerate an unrepentant or still-threatening murderer for life, there is no justification for executing him or her.

It’s worth pointing out that while the Church teaches that the death penalty is appropriate when it’s the only means of defending society, Pope Francis has several times spoken against its use, ever, and I’m pretty sure immediate predecessors have as well. I understand the justification but I don’t think it has a place in the modern world.
 
Murmurs said:
I accept (or at least understand) the principal that to kill in self-defense can be reasonable, but when it’s entirely possible to incarcerate an unrepentant or still-threatening murderer for life, there is no justification for executing him or her…
Click to expand...
But is incarcerating them the same thing as rendering them incapable of harming others. For some yes, but is that true for all?
 
Is there any other Western Industrialized country that still has the death penalty other than the US? I think the answer will give some a shock.:eek:
 
JerryZ said:
Uhmmm OK as it has been pointed out at nauseam, it is licit for the state to impose the death penalty on someone who has commited a heinous crime.

He/She is not an innocent person.

The Church wishes that no one be put to death, however SHE (the Church) cannot outright condemn the right, that the state has to impose it for the protection of society.

Because this right comes straight out of Tradition and the Bible itself.

Same applies to war. NO ONE should wish for war. Sometimes it is the only remedy left to us. Pray that one day wars and murders be no more!
That day truly the Kingdom of GOD will have fully manifested on earth. 👍

.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your responses.

I don’t really understand why I am having such a hard time accepting this. I guess it’s just that I am straight up pro-life, no if, and, or buts. And it’s just hard for me to see the reasoning on why the church can be teaching full out pro-life morals, but then still stand by capital punishment.

And really, in all honesty, if you stand by CP, you’re really not “pro-life.” Because that’s a “but.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top