Having trouble accepting this

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ChurchSuffering said:
Thanks for your responses.

I don’t really understand why I am having such a hard time accepting this. I guess it’s just that I am straight up pro-life, no if, and, or buts. And it’s just hard for me to see the reasoning on why the church can be teaching full out pro-life morals, but then still stand by capital punishment.

And really, in all honesty, if you stand by CP, you’re really not “pro-life.” Because that’s a “but.”
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Actually, the Church does so BECAUSE it is pro-life and recognizes the right of society to defend itself.

Here is the Council of Trent on the 5th Commandment
Execution Of Criminals
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Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder.
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The end of the Commandment* is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence. Hence these words of David: In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land, that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.
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I’d recommend that you read Cardinal Dulles on the subject He is a rather interesting man, Pope St. John Paul II made him a Cardinal, even though he was not a bishop. He did so in recognition of his skill as a theologian.

firstthings.com/article/2001/04/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment

I would encourage you to read through it, and then comment on the parts that you do not understand.
 
kozlosap said:
Is there any other Western Industrialized country that still has the death penalty other than the US? I think the answer will give some a shock.:eek:
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Yeah, well is there any modern western industrialized country that has not legalized abortion, and likely to legalize SSM and euthanasia? Be wary of what answers you might be shocked by and why…
 
Brendan said:
Actually, the Church does so BECAUSE it is pro-life and recognizes the right of society to defend itself.

Here is the Council of Trent on the 5th Commandment

I’d recommend that you read Cardinal Dulles on the subject He is a rather interesting man, Pope St. John Paul II made him a Cardinal, even though he was not a bishop. He did so in recognition of his skill as a theologian.

firstthings.com/article/2001/04/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment

I would encourage you to read through it, and then comment on the parts that you do not understand.
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Alright I will read that.
Peter_Plato said:
Yeah, well is there any modern western industrialized country that has not legalized abortion, and likely to legalize SSM and euthanasia? Be wary of what answers you might be shocked by and why…
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Okay so say you have an elderly lady who’s going blind. If she gets behind the wheel of a car, she would be a threat to the safety of society. Does this mean that she should be euthanized? Say that she has already been in a previous car crash and killed someone, how about then?
 
I know where the OP is coming from, I was raised catholic, and kind of resisted until I grew older, I am 40 yrs old now and am a member of my families parish, But there are a few things I do not agree with the CC on, Im not going to mention the others, but one is the death penalty as well, like the OP, it just seems a bit too convenient that the ‘Govt/ authority figure’, has the right, but not the common person.

A government is made up of PEOPLE… so what makes those people special that they get to break rules that the rest of us cannot?

It seems there are more than a few of these little convenient coincidences that secular societies benefit from when it comes to the catholic church and what its members are told to do…I dont know, some of them seem like they were ‘put in place’ to ensure control over the public versus doing what God truly wants us to. One example is the ‘give unto Caesar what is Caesars’ verse, now, why would an ALL POWERFUL God even care if people pay their taxes? LOL little things like that, pretty much ensure the Govt, or power that be, will never have to deal with any problems with religious people, as they have already been ‘conditioned’ to abide by these laws, when really, we should be more concerned with Gods laws, NOT mans.

Other than that, I can think of at least 3 other topics I do not agree with the CC on, but I still consider myself a catholic, I know many people I grew up with, that are catholics today, that also disagree with some things in the CC, but they also call themselves catholics…maybe agreeing with EVERYTHING is a thing of the past?
 
Capital punishment is only ever allowed by the Catholic Church IF there is ABSOLUTELY no other way to protect society from this person. JP II made it clear that there is no reason in modern society that such an instance would be necessary.
 
Brendan said:
I’d recommend that you read Cardinal Dulles on the subject He is a rather interesting man, Pope St. John Paul II made him a Cardinal, even though he was not a bishop. He did so in recognition of his skill as a theologian.

firstthings.com/article/2001/04/catholicism-amp-capital-punishment

I would encourage you to read through it, and then comment on the parts that you do not understand.
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Giving magisterial authority to the death penalty, Pope Innocent III required disciples of Peter Waldo seeking reconciliation with the Church to accept the proposition: “The secular power can, without mortal sin, exercise judgment of blood, provided that it punishes with justice, not out of hatred, with prudence, not precipitation.” In the high Middle Ages and early modern times the Holy See authorized the Inquisition to turn over heretics to the secular arm for execution. In the Papal States the death penalty was imposed for a variety of offenses. The Roman Catechism, issued in 1566, three years after the end of the Council of Trent, taught that the power of life and death had been entrusted by God to civil authorities and that the use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment.
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This paragraph, and mostly the statement in bold is very far from what I believe.

Just the thought that God would ever give “civil authorities” the power to take the life of a man is completely absurd to me.
 
HungerNThirst4R said:
Capital punishment is only ever allowed by the Catholic Church IF there is ABSOLUTELY no other way to protect society from this person. JP II made it clear that there is no reason in modern society that such an instance would be necessary.
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I agree with this. CP is only acceptable in a society where there is no other choice.
 
ChurchSuffering said:
Giving magisterial authority to the death penalty, Pope Innocent III required disciples of Peter Waldo seeking reconciliation with the Church to accept the proposition: “The secular power can, without mortal sin, exercise judgment of blood, provided that it punishes with justice, not out of hatred, with prudence, not precipitation.” In the high Middle Ages and early modern times the Holy See authorized the Inquisition to turn over heretics to the secular arm for execution. In the Papal States the death penalty was imposed for a variety of offenses. The Roman Catechism, issued in 1566, three years after the end of the Council of Trent, taught that the power of life and death had been entrusted by God to civil authorities and that the use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to the fifth commandment.
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It is actually Scriptural

Romans 13: 1-4
Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
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Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
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For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
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for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without reason; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
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See here is the thing people miss: the church isn’t anti death penalty but no one is under any obligation to have to resort to it. 👍
 
Peter_Plato said:
Yeah, well is there any modern western industrialized country that has not legalized abortion, and likely to legalize SSM and euthanasia? Be wary of what answers you might be shocked by and why…
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I read a book called “Lord of the World”, written by a Priest in the early 20th century. This is also a book Pope Francis has mentioned from time to time.

In the book, Rome is the last bastion of Catholicism in the world, and the only place that still allowed the death penalty. The author noted this as an example of where the Church was the only bastion left that understood justice and the immortality of the soul. He saw it as giving a final opportunity to repentance, by stating the gravity of the crime(worthy of death).

Other countries found it fine to euthanize the elderly and kill the unborn, but found the Death Penalty inhumane.

Modern Catholics don’t seem to realize how much secular thinking has warped the world.
 
Peter_Plato said:
Yeah, well is there any modern western industrialized country that has not legalized abortion, and likely to legalize SSM and euthanasia? Be wary of what answers you might be shocked by and why…
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Same sex marriage might be something we can rightly object to but it’s in a very different class compared to killing people (babies or adults)…
SWolf said:
I read a book called “Lord of the World”, written by a Priest in the early 20th century. This is also a book Pope Francis has mentioned from time to time.

In the book, Rome is the last bastion of Catholicism in the world, and the only place that still allowed the death penalty. The author noted this as an example of where the Church was the only bastion left that understood justice and the immortality of the soul. He saw it as giving a final opportunity to repentance, by stating the gravity of the crime(worthy of death).

Other countries found it fine to euthanize the elderly and kill the unborn, but found the Death Penalty inhumane.

Modern Catholics don’t seem to realize how much secular thinking has warped the world.
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I have always wondered how one can be in favour of legalising euthanasia and yet against the death penalty. Sure one involves someone asking to die and the other presumably not but if one is making the argument that the state (except in self-defense eg at war) shouldn’t be involved in the business of killing people then it seems remarkably inconsistent. I’d say the same thing about abortion but I recognise that not everyone considers that life begins with conception so to their mind it doesn’t constitute killing in the same way. Either way…I’m going to look at that book, thanks for mentioning it 🙂
 
ChurchSuffering said:
Thanks for your responses.

I don’t really understand why I am having such a hard time accepting this. I guess it’s just that I am straight up pro-life, no if, and, or buts. And it’s just hard for me to see the reasoning on why the church can be teaching full out pro-life morals, but then still stand by capital punishment.

And really, in all honesty, if you stand by CP, you’re really not “pro-life.” Because that’s a “but.”
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In all honesty I stand by the state’s right to impose any legal sentence. In all honesty I am totally & completely pro-life. I think capital punishment is wrong and I feel no conflict with my faith in the Catholic Church and her stance on capital punishment. So please do not tell others they are not pro-life because you don’t understand the teaching of the Church.

You are missing the nuance here. The Church does not “approve” of capital punishment, however, She does recognize the right of governments to make & enforce laws. In the US today there really isn’t a need for capital punishment. Even the most heinous criminal can be incarcerated for life to protect the public and segregated from other inmates to protect them. The Church urges the US to discontinue capital punishment.
 
“The dignity of human life must never be taken away, even in the case of someone who has done great evil. Modern society has the means of protecting itself, without definitively denying criminals the chance to reform.”
–Pope John Paul II, Evangelium Vitae, 1995
 
If the Catholic Church was in charge of capital punishment for a person to be charged it would have to be 100% proven without doubt that person would hurt or kill others if freed and the situation would have to be there was no humanly way to contain this person.

In other words it’s such a high bar no one in today’s western society would even come close. The teachings go so far that in self defense we are to use any non-lethal means possibly to stop an attack and only kill when there is absolutely no other way to save your own life or that of another.

I’m all for abolishing capital punishment but if I feel my family is threatened I’m shooting first, emptying the clip and will settle it out in confession on Saturday.

I really wouldn’t let this bother you the church is in 99.99999% agreement with you and the difference is an acceptable margin of error.
 
Horton said:
In all honesty I stand by the state’s right to impose any legal sentence. In all honesty I am totally & completely pro-life. I think capital punishment is wrong and I feel no conflict with my faith in the Catholic Church and her stance on capital punishment. So please do not tell others they are not pro-life because you don’t understand the teaching of the Church.

You are missing the nuance here. The Church does not “approve” of capital punishment, however, She does recognize the right of governments to make & enforce laws. In the US today there really isn’t a need for capital punishment. Even the most heinous criminal can be incarcerated for life to protect the public and segregated from other inmates to protect them. The Church urges the US to discontinue capital punishment.
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I don’t think you would be able to segregate them for life as it would be considered cruel and inhuman punishment.
 
ChurchSuffering said:
Yea, but who’s wrong?
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The catechism is not infallible and neither are you. Just roll with it brother:

Philippians 4:6-7Contemporary English Version (CEV)

6 Don’t worry about anything, but pray about everything. With thankful hearts offer up your prayers and requests to God. 7 Then, because you belong to Christ Jesus, God will bless you with peace that no one can completely understand. And this peace will control the way you think and feel.

May the peace of The Lord fill your heart, soul and mind.
 
WT1 said:
The catechism is not infallible and neither are you. Just roll with it brother:

Philippians 4:6-7Contemporary English Version (CEV)

6 Don’t worry about anything, but pray about everything. With thankful hearts offer up your prayers and requests to God. 7 Then, because you belong to Christ Jesus, God will bless you with peace that no one can completely understand. And this peace will control the way you think and feel.

May the peace of The Lord fill your heart, soul and mind.
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Thank you. I will drop it
 
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