Having Trouble Discovering God in the Old Testament

[The_Truthinator]

Is there any solution to this? I approach the Old Testament with… I don’t know. Apprehension. I read it and I can’t get past the superficialities. Like translating “expanse” as firmament, or stupid stuff like the names of places, names which I can’t pronounce and have to look up just to have an idea. I feel like the New Testament just feels more in line with what makes sense for God to write in the Scriptures for some reason. I mean, the OT is full of genealogies, which mean little to the modern day reader, and obscure locations, etc.

I love what the Emergent Church Movement has to say about biblical narrative: that it is a personal encounter, a love letter sent from God to humanity, that the names, places, etc., are all records of people’s encounters with God. They are relevent. It is a book detailing his love for us and our experiences with him.

Yet somehow, when confronting and toppling difficult OT passages, or too-familiar ones, it’s hard for me to get my mind around this.

Any advice?

 

[epostle]

This article might help:

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=6415

The Emergent Church Movement may have many good things about it, but that is probably the source of your confusion to begin with, in spite of the warm fuzzies.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergent_church

After reading several web sites from various faith and non-faith sources, my conclusion is the the Emergent Church Movement is another Protestant postmodernist cult that should be avoided.

The most important value of postmodernity is the inadmissibility of all totalizing ways of viewing any dimension of life. Postmodernity, as a theory, refuses to allow any single defining source for truth and reality beyond the individual. The gospel clearly contradicts this value. While Emergent leaders raise legitimate concerns about adding too much to the gospel, they also must be careful not to reshape the gospel to accommodate this primary value of postmodernity. If the gospel is held hostage to the restrictions of postmodernity, it ceases to be good news.

 

[puzzleannie]

never heard of the Emergent Church but if they are not led by Pope Benedict 16 they are not the Church established by Jesus Christ, the Church entrusted to protect and hand on Divine Revelation in the form of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition, and protected by the Holy Spirit in teaching, translating and interpreting that Revelation. Your first step is to stop wasting time with people who have no authority to teach and interpret scripture. Your next is to find a reliable translation of the Bible in your language–there is a sticky on this forum to guide you in this.

your third step is to embark on an orthodox bible study that presents the OT and NT for what it is Salvation History, which will give you a framework in which to study indidvidual books. Good ones are Our Father’s Plan by Scott Hahn and Jeff Cavins, video and study guide and book available from Ignatius Press. These are a typical lecture/discussion video with study questions.

A newer one that covers the same ground in a somewhat more flexible format, a little more “fun” is Jeff Cavins’ Great Bible Adventure from Ascension Press. available in CDs and DVDs, or study guide alone (also pricier, an investment for a parish or group), they also have good individual studies that cost less but are equally good.

 

[mangy_dog]

Is there any solution to this? I approach the Old Testament with… I don’t know. Apprehension. I read it and I can’t get past the superficialities. Like translating “expanse” as firmament, or stupid stuff like the names of places, names which I can’t pronounce and have to look up just to have an idea. I feel like the New Testament just feels more in line with what makes sense for God to write in the Scriptures for some reason. I mean, the OT is full of genealogies, which mean little to the modern day reader, and obscure locations, etc.

I love what the Emergent Church Movement has to say about biblical narrative: that it is a personal encounter, a love letter sent from God to humanity, that the names, places, etc., are all records of people’s encounters with God. They are relevent. It is a book detailing his love for us and our experiences with him.

Yet somehow, when confronting and toppling difficult OT passages, or too-familiar ones, it’s hard for me to get my mind around this.

Any advice?

Hello 'nator,

In reading the encyclicals, I found that the best way to read the Bible is to start with Genesis, then, the Prophets, followed by the Psalms then the Song of Songs. That’s the Hebrew scriptures. After this, start on the Christian scriptures, in order…Matt , Mark Luke John etc etc etc. all the way to Apocalypse. I believe St. Jerome was the one who recommended this order of reading the Bible. All the other books will make sense in light of this order.

Hope this helps - it helped me.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum

 

[Contarini]

Is there any solution to this? I approach the Old Testament with… I don’t know. Apprehension. I read it and I can’t get past the superficialities. Like translating “expanse” as firmament, or stupid stuff like the names of places, names which I can’t pronounce and have to look up just to have an idea. I feel like the New Testament just feels more in line with what makes sense for God to write in the Scriptures for some reason. I mean, the OT is full of genealogies, which mean little to the modern day reader, and obscure locations, etc.

This is very hard for me to understand or sympathize with. I probably shouldn’t even post, because I just can’t get my mind around what you are saying. To me the OT is chock full of God. I love the stories, the history, the poetry, even the laws. It’s very incarnational–the story of God’s relationship with a nation, so it includes every aspect of their life. Purely as a set of writings, I find the OT much more clearly divine than the NT.

Why do you think God is obligated to talk only about things that happen to interest you, with your inevitably narrow cultural and personal presuppositions?

Edwin

 

[The_Truthinator]

For those of you who spent half your post trying to condemn the ECM, uh… thanks…? I don’t understand why that was necessary at all, really. I like to benefit from the views of other religions or denoms. I love the Buddhist’s emphasis on love and peace and oneness, the Muslim’s on the Mercy of God and on true devotion to him, the Protestant’s on a personal relationship with God and evangelization–and the Emergent Church’s on the Bible as a love letter (which it is). What makes that objectionable?

Besides that, I believe in objective truth as much as anyone here, but no one denies that we experience objective truth subjectively. (Paradoxical, but true.)

Anyhoo, heretical denoms aside, I think my problem is a longing for dynamics that’s unrealistic. No wonder I devour apocryphal works and other religious texts but so often ignore the Sacred Scriptures… I think my problem is that I want to add some spice, so to speak, to them… I love the stories in Torah and have read it twice (maybe three times, I can’t remember) in order to sear them into my brain. I wanted to be able to tell my kids some day (IF I have kids) about the ancient Israelites and their journey without ever even opening a Bible. I want to know the stories and understand what they each say about God…

You know, one of the things I overlook a lot is something in the Gospel of John: that John constantly identifies himself as the “beloved,” or the “one whom Jesus loved.” Christ’s love for him became an identity. In the Old Testament, it’s easy to get lost in the details of the Creation Stories, but when I take a moment to think of what the ancient readers must have been thinking about, I’m amazed. I see a vast arena of beauty and no sorrow in sight; I see man faced with a choice: God or himself. I know the outcome but somehow, still there’s suspense. I see Moses, a terrible speaker, chosen by God and am reminded of Christ’s words to St. Paul: “My power works best in your weakness.” I read Hosea and see God’s obsession with his People, his Bride, made more evidently clear in the Song of Songs.

I love the Old Testament, but I guess what I was getting at is that most people around me are content to see it in this dull, formulaic light, when I want to see what I know to be there and at times perceive: a God drunk with love for his children. His passion for them that prefigured and explained his Son’s eventual Passion.

Thanks, everyone!

 

[Quenched]

Hey Truthinator,

As a member of one of these heretical sects (I’m Anglican D I sometimes share your problem. What I have found works is by looking for Christ in the Old Testament.

Isaiah and other Prophets fortell him, but as all Scripture testifies to Christ, he can be found on every page. Even in that book of bloodshed Joshua, we can find some of the greatest words of encouragement (see chapter 1).

After that I’d see what floated your boat. I like biblical poetry so I headed for Job and the Psalms. As a Catholic you can check out Sirach too.

Perhaps you’re feeling a bit depressed? Head for Ecclesiasties and make it worse! Feeling wise? Try Proverbs.

The Old Testament is certainly harder to read, but with an open mind and an open heart, we can see that truly all Scripture points us to God, and to His Son.

Hope some of this is helpful

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

I recommend reading the books- “Reading the Old Testament–An Introduction” by Lawrence Boadt and “Reading the New Testament (Second Edition)” by Pheme Perkins. Both are Catholic books and frankly, without them I would have rejected the Bible period. You can get them used for cheap at Amazon or Ebay/Half.com.

 

[Cathy]

Is there any solution to this? I approach the Old Testament with… I don’t know. Apprehension. …Any advice?

I felt the very same way about the Old Testament until I listened to Scott Hahn’s tape series on the New Testament book of Hebrews (St. Joseph Communications)…chock full of explanations about Old Testament beliefs and types fulfilled in the New Testament. He also has a tape series called, I think, “Christ in the Old Testament.” I found all of his lectures fascinating…and very convincing. His Bible commentaries played a big role in my conversion to the Catholic Faith.

 

[utunumsint]

I think for me, reading the Psalms, wisdom literature, and the Prophets makes the Torah come alive. The Torah sets up the context, the Psalms, wisdom literature, and the Prophets makes it come alive. But it is sometimes alien. I love Amos and his quest for social justice; Hosea and his emphasis on fidelity to God. I especially love the Psalms which incorporate the whole range of human emotions and allows me to enter into the relationship that the Psalmists had with God. What they thought about him. How they perceived him.

On the other hand, a great deal in Josuah makes my blood run cold. I have to admit that compared with today’s standards, Abraham treated Sarah and Hagar horribly. But I think that these alien elements (for me) add to the authenticity of the Bible. And, of course, my yardstick is always Jesus, who had no problem rejecting parts of the old Testament (e.g. Moses’ rules on divorce).

God bless,
Ut

 

[danlaupat]

I recommend taking on a formal Bible study that helps you 1) learn the “big picture” of salvation history, and 2)understand the Covenant between God and the Israelites that is the focus of the Torah. I think the best place to start is by reading Exodus. Here you will see how much God loved his Chosen People and how he established his Covenant with them. Try not to get bogged down with geneologies. Start by looking at what God is trying to communicate to his people and how the people respond to God. The major theme you will pick up on are that God is loving, forgiving, and merciful. Also, when you read Deuteronomy, which is written like a beautiful sermon, you will see that it flows with love. It is my favorite book of the Torah.

Maybe because I was Jewish prior to becoming Catholic so I came into Catholicism with some rudimentary understanding of the OT, but I do not think one can fully appreciate God’s love for humans without studying the OT. Also, because Jesus fulfilled the law, it is important to understand the OT laws and why they were so important. People tend to get turned off by the laws, but they were more than laws–they were the Israelites’ way of expressing their love and devotion to God. They were the crux of the first Covenant. To understand Jesus fully one must have some knowledge of the laws, or at least what they meant.

God bless and don’t give up on the OT!

 

[The_Truthinator]

On the other hand, a great deal in Josuah makes my blood run cold.

Ugh…! Have you read Judges? Judges literally made me feel sick. I guess that was the point, though, because the theme repeated over and over again was: “In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did what he thought best.” All the chaos and bloodshed and abuses and idolatry were crying out, “Give us a king!”

There is definitely a humanity to the Scriptures we too often miss.

 

[Cathy]

I think the best place to start is by reading Exodus. Here you will see how much God loved his Chosen People and how he established his Covenant with them. … I do not think one can fully appreciate God’s love for humans without studying the OT. … God bless and don’t give up on the OT!

So true! The OT also expresses the wideness and depth of God’s forbearance and mercy, e.g. Ex. 34:6-7/Ps. 103.

 

[SpiritMeadow]

First, get a order of the OT that follows the hebrew OT. the order is quite different and historically will work better for you.

Second, stop reading (at least one reading anyway) as to what you are supposed to get and start reading it as a story of how a people related to God. How they described him and how they felt he operated. See it as more of a history of Judaism. Try to imagine how these often rule-centered people were attempting to forge a life and community with God, using God as their moral compass, and also having him lead them in quite minor things as well. This is a nice and fresh way to examine the OT. I agree, its quite jarring in its differnce from the NT, and it helps to regard the OT sometimes as standing alone.

 

[jcrichton]

For those of you who spent half your post trying to condemn the ECM, uh… thanks…? I don’t understand why that was necessary at all, really. I like to benefit from the views of other religions or denoms. I love the Buddhist’s emphasis on love and peace and oneness, the Muslim’s on the Mercy of God and on true devotion to him, the Protestant’s on a personal relationship with God and evangelization–and the Emergent Church’s on the Bible as a love letter (which it is). What makes that objectionable?

***Hi, Truthinator!

… perhaps Catholics should not object so boldly against other religious entities… still, this is a Catholic site (waaaay more tolerant than many non-Catholic which I’ve visited) and the views are going to be predominantly Catholic.

…just a few weeks ago I watched a program on a science channel that spoke on how life “emerged” on the planet–from what I understood their goal is the removal of a Divine Creator. They are looking to expose sub-subatomic particles to prove that life “emerged;” hence, no Creation. Conversely, It is not surprising that man continues to “improve” on the Church so as to accommodate the newest versions of spirituality.

Should we simply embrace everything or perhaps those “good” portions that “new revelations” bring about? I do not think that the task Christ left us was to embrace whatever humanity offers but to obey His Word. Yet, too many times I find new agers making references about God as though there’s a passage in the Bible that says it OK to treat God with familiarity (“lover,” “He understands us so it’s OK to vent our frustrations on Him,” “God loves us just as we are so we do not need to change…”); too many times we (Christians) seek to conform Scriptures to the world and not the other way around… so it matter what Christians accept as source of Doctrine.

…love letter… hmmm, let me think… nope, I don’t get that! God is not an all-permisible-do-as-you-please-lovy-Lord. Jesus stated it clearly, we cannot be His disciples if we love ourselves/others more than Him; we cannot be His disciples if we do not obey His Commandments; we cannot call ourselves Christians if we choose humanity over Him! We are called to stand not to homogenize!

Anyhoo, heretical denoms aside, I think my problem is a longing for dynamics that’s unrealistic. No wonder I devour apocryphal works

***and other religious texts but so often ignore the Sacred Scriptures… I think my problem is that I want to add some spice, so to speak, to them…

You know, one of the things I overlook a lot is something in the Gospel of John: that John constantly identifies himself as the “beloved,” or the “one whom Jesus loved.” Christ’s love for him became an identity. In the Old Testament, it’s easy to get lost in the details of the Creation Stories, but when I take a moment to think of what the ancient readers must have been thinking about, I’m amazed. I see a vast arena of beauty and no sorrow in sight; I see man faced with a choice: God or himself. I know the outcome but somehow, still there’s suspense. I see Moses, a terrible speaker, chosen by God and am reminded of Christ’s words to St. Paul: “My power works best in your weakness.” I read Hosea and see God’s obsession with his People, his Bride, made more evidently clear in the Song of Songs.

I love the Old Testament, but I guess what I was getting at is that most people around me are content to see it in this dull, formulaic light, when I want to see what I know to be there and at times perceive: a God drunk with love for his children. His passion for them that prefigured and explained his Son’s eventual Passion.

Thanks, everyone!

I do not mean to be critical of you… I’ve highlighted some text to show you how new age creeps in… apocryphal (not sure if you are referring to the Books that non-Catholics removed from the Bible in the 16th century or to extra-Biblical manuscripts that surface from time to time), ignorance of Sacred Scriptures, add spice aka drama, God’s obsession, and God drunk… though the vocabulary may differ, the insinuation is the same: Christians can learn from any source of writings (even the Satanic bible cause it is the true way to know what it says), and Christians can ignore Scripture–setting “spiritual” works a par with the Holy Scripture or simply ignoring their Teachings, Christians can infer that God has human attributes by which He can be defined and/or addressed…

This happened with such subtlety that some Christians truly believe that these tenets are supported by Scripture/God Himself!

Maran atha!

Angel