Having trouble with only baptism of desire

[aball1035]

I believe there’s Baptism of Desire, but am having trouble with believing it.

For the classic example of a person in a far off village who’s never heard of Christianity who’s searching for truth, why wouldn’t God simply bring a priest over there?

In your response, please give me rational arguments rather than ones based on emotion. Sorry, but I feel I can get a lot more help with rationality!

Thanks in advance!

 

[jmcrae]

I believe there’s Baptism of Desire, but am having trouble with believing it.

For the classic example of a person in a far off village who’s never heard of Christianity who’s searching for truth, why wouldn’t God simply bring a priest over there?

In your response, please give me rational arguments rather than ones based on emotion. Sorry, but I feel I can get a lot more help with rationality!

Thanks in advance!

part of the problem is that that’s not “baptism of desire.”

Baptism of Desire is what happens when a Catechumen (that is to say, someone who is already in training to become a Christian) dies prior to their baptism day, and no priest was able to reach their death bed in time.

Again, Baptism of Desire only applies when a date of baptism and priest have already been arranged for that person, but they die before that date, and emergency baptism does not take place.

Those who die without ever hearing the Gospel, we entrust to the mercy of God. We don’t know what happens to them, but Baptism of Desire does not apply, in their case.

The only other case where it might potentially apply would be in the case of an infant who dies before Baptism, who is the child of Christian parents who would certainly have taken him to the Church for baptism at some point in the very near future - but I am not certain of that, either, since the Catechism tells us that even in this case, we trust in the mercy of God - which means, we can’t really know what happens to them.

 

[Ocarm]

Those who die without ever hearing the Gospel, we entrust to the mercy of God. We don’t know what happens to them, but Baptism of Desire does not apply, in their case.

That’s not entirely true. The catechism states explicitly that baptism by desire can apply to non-Christians who have not heard the gospel, although it stops short of saying that it definitely does apply, specifying that the occasion of baptism by desire is determined by the actions of each individual:

CCC1260: "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM

 

[TomD123]

I believe there’s Baptism of Desire, but am having trouble with believing it.

For the classic example of a person in a far off village who’s never heard of Christianity who’s searching for truth, why wouldn’t God simply bring a priest over there?

In your response, please give me rational arguments rather than ones based on emotion. Sorry, but I feel I can get a lot more help with rationality!

Thanks in advance!

God could simply bring a priest over there, but as we see in our world, God works with “what we give him” so to speak. He doesn’t micromanage the world in such an obvious way. If someone living in North America before 1492 was a moral person, God certainly could have transported a priest from Europe to administer baptism. Or, God could ensure that every Catechumen did not die until they recieved water baptism. HOwever, God made a world where he is not constantly performing miracles (otherwise they would not be miracles). God made a world where things happen, some by his positive will, others by his passive will, and in the end, he accomplishes what he wishes.

 

[jmcrae]

That’s not entirely true. The catechism states explicitly that baptism by desire can apply to non-Christians who have not heard the gospel, although it stops short of saying that it definitely does apply, specifying that the occasion of baptism by desire is determined by the actions of each individual:

CCC1260: "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM

“would have desired baptism” does not fall under the technical term Baptism of Desire.

Baptism of Desire is a technical term that applies specifically to adults who have received the Rite of Acceptance in RCIA to become Catechumens, who die prior to the Easter Vigil without receiving emergency baptism.

Some people also say that it applies to babies whose parents have set a Baptism date for them with the Church (or who would have done so), who die in utero or shortly after birth, and again, without emergency baptism, but I don’t know of any documentation for that - but in any case, the assumption is that the person explicitly desires baptism, has no impediments, and has set a date for it to take place.

 

[Texas_Roofer]

I believe there’s Baptism of Desire, but am having trouble with believing it.

For the classic example of a person in a far off village who’s never heard of Christianity who’s searching for truth, why wouldn’t God simply bring a priest over there?

In your response, please give me rational arguments rather than ones based on emotion. Sorry, but I feel I can get a lot more help with rationality!

Thanks in advance!

Maybe that person lived before Christ’s visit?
Maybe that village feared strangers and thus did not trust the Priest?
May the Priest was poor in communication or quality?

Seriously many may struggle with the separation of men (as priests) and religion so they may answer god’s call in silence.

 

[Ocarm]

“would have desired baptism” does not fall under the technical term Baptism of Desire.

Baptism of Desire is a technical term that applies specifically to adults who have received the Rite of Acceptance in RCIA to become Catechumens, who die prior to the Easter Vigil without receiving emergency baptism.

I’d be interested to see any authoritative document that makes that distinction - that’s not a challenge or a charge that it doesn’t exist, by the way (!) just a genuine interest in seeing the chapter and verse. I say that because the catechism certainly doesn’t seem to make this distinction, using the same words (and the same capitalisation or lack thereof, incidentally) in both cases:

*1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.*

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM

In my experience the CCC isn’t usually ambiguous to the extent that it could mislead by using terminology loosely, but I’m very willing to be corrected if there’s authoritative commentary to the contrary. I don’t claim any great expertise in sacramentology.

Best wishes.

 

[bluelake]

I believe there’s Baptism of Desire, but am having trouble with believing it.

For the classic example of a person in a far off village who’s never heard of Christianity who’s searching for truth, why wouldn’t God simply bring a priest over there?

In your response, please give me rational arguments rather than ones based on emotion. Sorry, but I feel I can get a lot more help with rationality!

Thanks in advance!

What is ‘baptism of desire’?

bluelake

 

[bluelake]

I’d be interested to see any authoritative document that makes that distinction - that’s not a challenge or a charge that it doesn’t exist, by the way (!) just a genuine interest in seeing the chapter and verse. I say that because the catechism certainly doesn’t seem to make this distinction, using the same words (and the same capitalisation or lack thereof, incidentally) in both cases:

*1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.*

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM

In my experience the CCC isn’t usually ambiguous to the extent that it could mislead by using terminology loosely, but I’m very willing to be corrected if there’s authoritative commentary to the contrary. I don’t claim any great expertise in sacramentology.

Best wishes.

Certain discussions of some issues of Catholic teaching is in a complete fog area to those who aren’t catholic.
I call these issues, “toots and bells”
“We are all saved by grace, through faith so no one can boast” Eph.2:8-9
For me, this is clear

God bless,
bluelake

 

[jmcrae]

I’d be interested to see any authoritative document that makes that distinction - that’s not a challenge or a charge that it doesn’t exist, by the way (!) just a genuine interest in seeing the chapter and verse. I say that because the catechism certainly doesn’t seem to make this distinction, using the same words (and the same capitalisation or lack thereof, incidentally) in both cases:

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."62 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P3M.HTM

In my experience the CCC isn’t usually ambiguous to the extent that it could mislead by using terminology loosely, but I’m very willing to be corrected if there’s authoritative commentary to the contrary. I don’t claim any great expertise in sacramentology.

Best wishes.

It’s made more clear in the Rite of Christian Initiation of Adults, in the discussion about who is eligible for Christian burial. Unbaptized people normally are not eligible for Christian burial - except for Catechumens. And in most places nowadays the unbaptized babies of Christian parents are given Christian burial, if they die.

People living in villages where the Gospel has not yet reached are not eligible for Christian burial.

I don’t know whether that helps, or just muddies the whole thing up.

 

[aball1035]

What is ‘baptism of desire’?

bluelake

Since we all need baptism to enter Heaven, it’s the concept of if somebody doesn’t have the ability to get baptism (from lack of a priest, etc), then if they truly desire it, their desire would suffice.

 

[The_Old_Medic]

Baptism by desire does NOT require that a specific date of baptism has been set, or even s specific time frame.

I am a classic example of this. I converted when I was 9 years old. I asked to be baptized, my mother (who had sole legal custody of me) gave her written permission for me to be baptized, but the Church would NOT baptize me because they considered me to be too young, and at too much risk of falling away from the faith. They decided that I would have to wait till I was a teen, in order to be baptized, since I would be the only Catholic in my entire extended family (and I came from a virulently anti-catholic background).

I was told that if I were to die, I would be considered to be baptized “by desire”. The fact that I had chosen to become a Catholic, desired baptism, but was denied it for legitimate reasons, was more than enough to put me into the category of those “baptized by desire” if I were to die.

Several priests, AND the Arch-Bishop of San Francisco told me that I was “covered” by Baptism by Desire, in case anything happened to me. Believe me, that was a comfort during those 4 years that i ad to wait.

I was baptized at the age of 13.

 

[valentino]

why wouldn’t God bring a priest oveer there?God works in reality.You may ask why isn’t the whole world converted by now?God has chosen to spread His word through men.God has chosen to save man by His own methods.God can use His methods of dealing with man any way He chooses.Why do you question God’s methods?

 

[Publisher]

As a Friend…I do not practice “outward rituals” or 'outward signs"…I consider myself a Christian…having experience the “One Baptism” of the Holy Spirit…the True Baptism which regenerates us…I ahve never been baptized in water…so would my “desire” to be “baptized in the Spirit” be considered…“baptism of desire” in your belief system?

 

[wisdomseeker]

I believe there’s Baptism of Desire, but am having trouble with believing it.

For the classic example of a person in a far off village who’s never heard of Christianity who’s searching for truth, why wouldn’t God simply bring a priest over there?

In your response, please give me rational arguments rather than ones based on emotion. Sorry, but I feel I can get a lot more help with rationality!

Thanks in advance!

As far as i know the baptism of desire is one in which a person wants to convert but is stoped by family members or a person is going through RCIA and suddenly dies. anyone who had the intention to be baptized but was stopped for a real good reason such as death before baptism. that is what i heard from the priest on RCIA. there is nothing wrong here.

 

[jmcrae]

Baptism by desire does NOT require that a specific date of baptism has been set, or even s specific time frame.

I am a classic example of this. I converted when I was 9 years old. I asked to be baptized, my mother (who had sole legal custody of me) gave her written permission for me to be baptized, but the Church would NOT baptize me because they considered me to be too young, and at too much risk of falling away from the faith. They decided that I would have to wait till I was a teen, in order to be baptized, since I would be the only Catholic in my entire extended family (and I came from a virulently anti-catholic background).

I was told that if I were to die, I would be considered to be baptized “by desire”. The fact that I had chosen to become a Catholic, desired baptism, but was denied it for legitimate reasons, was more than enough to put me into the category of those “baptized by desire” if I were to die.

Several priests, AND the Arch-Bishop of San Francisco told me that I was “covered” by Baptism by Desire, in case anything happened to me. Believe me, that was a comfort during those 4 years that i ad to wait.

I was baptized at the age of 13.

Yes, absolutely, this would also be included, since although day, date, and month weren’t established, there was the intention to do it “on a day when you have become a teenager” - that is, a definite intention was stated, with a time frame in mind- which is indeed what happened.

But there are also those who say, “Oh, one day, I will be baptized,” but make no effort to arrange anything, and just keep putting it off, and reach the age of 95, never having done it, and then they die - could that person be said to have had “baptism of desire”? Not really.

 

[aball1035]

What about people who have never heard of baptism but are still looking for truth? They have no set date or anything, and they would be saved for simply wanted it if they knew what it was

 

[PJM]

=aball1035;7770307]I believe there’s Baptism of Desire, but am having trouble with believing it.

For the classic example of a person in a far off village who’s never heard of Christianity who’s searching for truth, why wouldn’t God simply bring a priest over there?

In your response, please give me rational arguments rather than ones based on emotion. Sorry, but I feel I can get a lot more help with rationality!

Thanks in advance!

The answer has to do with God’s way of thinking which He tells us in NOT at all like ours…Isaiah 55.

In creating Humanity God makes us “in His own Image” **Gen. 1:26-27]. ****How and WHY? **These are the questions that I rhink best asnswer your Q…

How: God is SPIRT and TRUTH: **John 4:24]. **Humanity is the most wonderous and complex of all of God’s Creations in the entire Universe. Each human person starting with Adam and Eve to us and beyond have a Mind; an Intellect; a FREEWILL all attached to there souls. Whaile these attributes can be shown to exist; they CANNOT be quantified: size; color, shape; weight ect. **WHY? ** Because like God Himself they are SPIRITUAL THINGS. And Spiritual things MUST originate from other Spiritual things.[Like from like].

**So that’s the “HOW” part. Now to the “WHY”. **

ONLY humanity in all of the Universe has the tools; the potential to Know;to Love; to Serve; and to Obey God. And that is the precise reason for humanities existence. But because God is Perfect; God desires that our ove also be perfect. Love FREELY given is far nearer Perfect love; than love forced.

Baptism of desire is quite rare in that it can only apply under two God-set conditions: 1. Desire to be Baotized but TRULY unable to be [church under persecussion for example], and 2. in a condition where for reasons beyond there own control; they have never had the Word of God taught to them. Again a limited application.

Could God work a miracle and get His Faith to every human being. SURE; He’s God. So then WHY; WHY dosent God do this?

Because in a real sense God does not need too: God Obligates Himself to OFFER to every human person ever created; SUFFICIENT grace to know him. [Not necessarly “of Him”] but by writting on our hearts the basic good and evil things; one can IF ONE HAS NEVER BEEN ABLE TO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD, make sufficient good decessions to justify access to heaven. GOD’S CALL!

Heb.8: 10 “This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel [and all peoples]
after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.”

It is because of MAN’s limitations; NOT God’s that Baptism of Desire exist.

Please let me know if this is not clear enough for you…

God Bless,
Pat

 

[jmcrae]

What about people who have never heard of baptism but are still looking for truth? They have no set date or anything, and they would be saved for simply wanted it if they knew what it was

We hope and trust in God’s mercy, but we don’t know for a fact that they are saved. We wouldn’t be able to canonize these people, nor give them Christian funerals.