He "defys any Catholic"

  • Thread starter Thread starter Shinobu
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Shinibo,

Don’t answer the prejudiced fellow. Tell him to find another hobby, we dont play that Sola Scriptura game.
 
40.png
Shinobu:
How would you answer this person? I don’t know how to answer this and also just don’t know whereabouts to start.

The quote came from this page:
answerbag.com/a_view.php/14610
Well,

I’m no scholar in Greek or Aramaic, but I understand that when you refer to something, you better use the correct gender for the thing you’re referring to. There’s better articles on this, like at www.phatmass.com where you’ll find some addressing this.

But basically, yes, Peter was a man (masculine would be properly attributed to him grammatically), but the word for “rock” may have very well been of feminine gender. Jesus Christ, wanting to use proper grammar, would not be bothered, per se, in using a feminine word to refer to Peter the male person, if indeed he had a point to get across.

Take, for instance, the word “firecracker.” Ok, I took French for 2 years in college. I don’t know whether the word for “firecracker” in French is male or female, but it’s one or the other. Now, let’s just assume it’s feminine. Either way, it doesn’t matter. And I were to say “That Tommy Duke, he’s a real firecracker!”

“Le Tommy Duke, il est un la firecracker.” Or something like that, hey it’s been several years since high school!!

I’m still referring to Tommy, who is a guy, but just because I use a feminine noun to describe him (adjectively), doesn’t mean I’m not still talking about Tommy.

Does that make sense? Anyways, click on that link and go down to the “Specific Arguments” section, and you’ll find some articles on that.
 
40.png
Shinobu:
How would you answer this person? I don’t know how to answer this and also just don’t know whereabouts to start.

The quote came from this page:
answerbag.com/a_view.php/14610
It is an argument with a false premise. Why should we have to leave out Matthew 16, it is in the Scriptures. Also, ALL of the early, post-apostolic Christian writers acknowledge the authority of the Church.
 
I have mostly just commented on answers up to this point, but I want to address some things said in other answers/comments. I defy any Catholic to show where in the Bible authority is established for the Catholic church and for Peter as the first Pope without using Matthew 16:15-18.

It can be done - but it would take a lot of time​

A typical Catholic reading of that passage mixes two Greek words to create a false church structure. Christ told Peter that He would establish His church on the rock of Peter’s confession of Him as Christ, not on Peter himself. Peter is “petros”, a maculine noun meaning “stone”. Jesus told “petros” (actually, since “Peter” is the direct object of that sentence, the accusative form of this masculine noun would read “petron”) that He would build his church on this “petra”, a femine noun meaning “large rock, cliff, or ledge”. The words are completely different genders in the original text. This passage does not make Peter a pope. He was, instead, an elder in a congregation of the 1st century church as a reading of the letters he wrote will show.

Grammatical gender and natural gender do not always coincide. Christ is called “our righteousness” by Paul - and “righteousness” represents the feminine noun dikaiosune. This does not mean Christ is a woman. So why can’t the noun petra be applied to (the equally unwomanly) Simon Petros ? The noun korasion is grammatically neuter, yet its meaning, “little girl”, makes it applicable to the niece of Herod who asked for the head of the Baptist. So Mark’s Gospel calls her a korasion.​

Agreed, Peter was not Pope - not if by this one means that the ecclesiastical life of the 3rd century or the 10th century was not that of the 1st.

However, what every successor of Peter does have as he did, is the call to exercise in the Church and for the Church the same office as that which was conferred on Simon son of Jonah. Denying that Peter was a Pope, is like denying that he offered Mass in Latin attended by deacons, subdeacons, acolytes, & thurifers amid clouds of incense, while vested infull pontificals at the High Altar of St. Peter’s.

But it does not follow that, because Pius V or John XXIII did offer Mass like that, and that because** they **are Popes, Peter was not exercising the same position and duties as they did. They exercised it, because they had succeeded, not indeed to his apostleship, but to his function in the Church. (The apostleship of the 12 cannot have successors: it is a constitutive element in the Church much as the NT is: both are unique, unrepeatable, and determine the character of the Church for all time to come.

It is not the title of Pope that is fundamental to the Petrine office, but the exercise of that Petrine office in the Church, “by Divine Permission”. The Papacy is simply one of the forms that this office has taken. The permanent thing is the Petrine office, which is itself a manifestation of the episcope = function of overseer] common to all the Apostles and to their successors the bishops.

The exercise of an office does not depend on clothes, or appearance: Washington was clean-shaven, both George Bushes are clean-shaven, Lincoln was not: are we to conclude that Lincoln’s beardedness excludes him from the succession of US Presidents ? One might as well argue that because John Calvin did not wear a tie or quote Spurgeon and Dabney, the Hodges, Warfield, or John MacArthur, Calvin and these Calvinists did not believe the same things.

IOW - some things in the Church are permanent in their nature, but not in how they are manifested. The successors of Peter were not always temporal rulers: then they did become temporal rulers; which made it very difficult for Pius IX to accept the loss of the Papal States. Now they are temporal rulers again, of a very small state. If the Pope were reduced to beggary, he would still be Peter’s successor: even if he lived in a garret in a back street in Rio.

The outward manifestations of the Petrine office that are essential to it, are very few. What would be dangerous, is if an office which takes its meaning from Christ the Servant, giving His Life that His enemies may live, were to become a means of earthly domination and lordship: this is a very grave deformation of the Petrine office, because Christ’s Lordship is the pattern for Christians - all of us - and it is a Lordship which is shown forth by the self-sacrificing Love displayed through the mystery of the Cross. Which makes Peter an exemplary Pope - and an example for all his successors.

[continued…]
 
…continued, ended]

BTW, a really complete exegesis of Matthew 16 will look at the whole episode: not just at the “Papal bits” in it - Peter’s misunderstanding of the Messiahship of Jesus, and his temptation of Jesus, are essential to the episode’s meaning. Catholics of all people should never have to twist the Bible: not if we really do think it is in some sense “a Catholic book”.

IOW - the Bible is not a problem for Catholic belief in the Papacy: human sinfulness, not the Bible, is the problem, AFAICS.

The Petrine office cannot be understood if separated from the Headship of Christ over the Church. It is a manifestation of that very Headship, and no more replaces it - can no more do so, indeed, than human fatherhood replaces or can replace the Fatherhood of the Father. To be consistent, certain Christians should reject human fathers as “getting in the way of” or as “taking from” the Fatherhood of the Father of the Lord Jesus. Quite rightly, and with a happy lack of consistency, they show no sign of doing so.

Catholics are consistent in treating all forms of human activity - including that in the Church - as utterly dependent on the Activity of God. This makes all authority in the Church (such as the Pope’s) recognisable as a manifestation of the activity of Christ the Head, Shepherd, King, Ruler, Priest, Teacher, Prophet & Son. It does not require anything whatever to be “taken from” Him - which would in any case be completely wrong. It is entirely consistent with having a very high doctrine of Scripture, while giving Christ the Primacy even over that, as well as over His Church. ##
 
I would reply with the following challenge.
Code:
       Using the Bible alone, prove to us that the books that are in the Bible belong in the Bible.
 
The guy claims to be Church of Christ and seems to think he’s some sort of scholar. His other posts are typical and filled with A-C rhetoric. That site now has Catholic Answers answers… 😃 and links to this site for follow up. It is not where I would go for answers about the faith…If you go there, just post the links to the CA ma(name removed by moderator)age and let 'em deal with the library there.
He’s not so tough…he’s just another opinionated bigot… 😛
 
This is an argument posed by some evangelical fundamentalist groups to justify so called “non-denominationalism.” It is sometimes also used by the Churches of Christ to, surprisingly, militate against the validity of any Christian denomination other than those strictly associated with the “restoration movements” of the 19th century and beyond.

Here is an exerpt from the “answer” provided at the site:

“The Catholic church is not the original church. It is an apostate branch of the church as described in scripture that developed over time as an abandonment of congregational autonomy and the introduction of traditions that carried the weight of scripture took hold. Numerous Christian movements today are trying to return to the New Testament example of God’s church (the church of Christ where I attend is an example), and some are having more success than others as millenia old Catholic (and even Protestant) traditions and social sensitivities cloud an effort to return to pure Bible teaching.”

“I challenge any reader to prove through scripture alone that the Catholic church is the one church established by God. I will append this answer as necessary to respond.”
  1. If the Bible-only (“sola scriptura”) approach must be taken, as the author apparently believes than it cannot be demonstrated that “congregational autonomy” was a rule in the early days of the Church.
  2. Using a Bible-only approach, it cannot also be demonstrated sufficiently that “scripture” was held in a higher regard and carried greater authority than the “traditions” to which scripture itself admonishes us to “hold fast.”
  3. Using the Bible-only approach, ignoring the process as to how the New Testament, as we know it today, came to be considered Canonical, rejecting the testimony of the Early Church Fathers and also of the recorded history of the time period, etc. does lead one to arrogantly promote such assertions as the one Mr. Henry has.
I know. I had worshipped together with the Churches of Christ and the “Christians” shortly before returning home to Rome. These arguments are the same-old, same-old proving to me that apologetically-speaking, once again, to quote Qoheleth, “there is nothing new under the Sun.”
 
4 marks:
This is an argument posed by some evangelical fundamentalist groups to justify so called “non-denominationalism.” It is sometimes also used by the Churches of Christ to, surprisingly, militate against the validity of any Christian denomination other than those strictly associated with the “restoration movements” of the 19th century and beyond.

Here is an exerpt from the “answer” provided at the site:

“The Catholic church is not the original church. It is an apostate branch of the church as described in scripture that developed over time as an abandonment of congregational autonomy and the introduction of traditions that carried the weight of scripture took hold. Numerous Christian movements today are trying to return to the New Testament example of God’s church (the church of Christ where I attend is an example), and some are having more success than others as millenia old Catholic (and even Protestant) traditions and social sensitivities cloud an effort to return to pure Bible teaching.”

“I challenge any reader to prove through scripture alone that the Catholic church is the one church established by God. I will append this answer as necessary to respond.”
  1. If the Bible-only (“sola scriptura”) approach must be taken, as the author apparently believes than it cannot be demonstrated that “congregational autonomy” was a rule in the early days of the Church.
  2. Using a Bible-only approach, it cannot also be demonstrated sufficiently that “scripture” was held in a higher regard and carried greater authority than the “traditions” to which scripture itself admonishes us to “hold fast.”
  3. Using the Bible-only approach, ignoring the process as to how the New Testament, as we know it today, came to be considered Canonical, rejecting the testimony of the Early Church Fathers and also of the recorded history of the time period, etc. does lead one to arrogantly promote such assertions as the one Mr. Henry has.
I know. I had worshipped together with the Churches of Christ and the “Christians” shortly before returning home to Rome. These arguments are the same-old, same-old proving to me that apologetically-speaking, once again, to quote Qoheleth, “there is nothing new under the Sun.”
In fact, the bible specifically contradicts their false doctring of Sola Fide.
 
Hey Ignatius…there’s answers there on answerbag that are under the name Ignatius. Guess who it is? 😃
I figured that they needed some answers from someone devoted to St. Ignatius of Loyola. Feel free to help me out over there if you like. There are some real bigots on there.

When iI posted a list of when all the different religions were started and by whom from a newspaper article…one guy came back and said he was still waiting for Biblical proof of all that. I had to try to stop laughing to even answer his comments. They have a rating system though and if you read something that is good you need to vote that way (w/or w/o comment) so that the grade rating remains high, otgherwise the answer will appear to be inaccurate, even if it’s right.
Pax vobiscum,
 
Church Militant:
Hey Ignatius…there’s answers there on answerbag that are under the name Ignatius. Guess who it is? 😃
I figured that they needed some answers from someone devoted to St. Ignatius of Loyola. Feel free to help me out over there if you like. There are some real bigots on there.

When iI posted a list of when all the different religions were started and by whom from a newspaper article…one guy came back and said he was still waiting for Biblical proof of all that. I had to try to stop laughing to even answer his comments. They have a rating system though and if you read something that is good you need to vote that way (w/or w/o comment) so that the grade rating remains high, otgherwise the answer will appear to be inaccurate, even if it’s right.
Pax vobiscum,
Can you post a link? Thanks.
 
In reference to this defiant challenge to prove that the Catholic Church is the One True Church I suggest the talk offered by the Bible Christian Society (don’t worry, it’s Catholic - biblechristiansociety.com/) entitled “One Church.” He gives lots of reasons, relying on Scripture, why the Catholic Church is the only Church there is.
 
40.png
Shinobu:
How would you answer this person? I don’t know how to answer this and also just don’t know whereabouts to start.

The quote came from this page:
answerbag.com/a_view.php/14610
I’d point out that:
  1. He has misquoted Greek.
  2. Jesus spoke Aramaic.
  3. Jesus called Simon ‘Cephas’, not ‘Petra’.
  4. Jesus told Peter at the Last Supper that satan had asked for him (Peter) & that Jesus told Peter that He(Jesus) had prayed for him to strengthen his brothers.
  5. The end of John’s Gospel Jesus tells Peter “Feed My sheep” John 21:15-17.
I’d also add that the words “fundemantalism” , “altar call”, “rapture” & most importantly the word “bible” are not found anywhere in the Bible.

These people that say “if it’s not in the bible then I don’t believe it” make me laugh, because according to that “logic” the Earth is niether round nor the 3rd planet from the sun, not to mention that they themselves do not exsist since their names are also not found in the Bible. :dancing:
 
40.png
Shinobu:
How would you answer this person? I don’t know how to answer this and also just don’t know whereabouts to start.

The quote came from this page:
answerbag.com/a_view.php/14610
I would tell him he’s wrong and that is the very scripture that proves Church Authority…the petra/petros arument is well worn out…besides, ill take the Church Christ started anydayover one started by mere men…

whostartedyourchurch.com
 
There is a problem with the Catholic church if Peter was the first pope…
  1. Peter was married, no pope’s(or priests) can be.today
  2. Peter never taught he was infallible(pope’s didn’t even teach this till the 1800’s)
  3. Peter never lived in a palace, nor accepted praise from men.
  4. Peter is not the “Vicar of Christ”, that is the Holy Spirit.
  5. Has to be corrected by Paul, can you imagine a cardinal or priest correcting the “infallible” pope???
  6. Peter was imprisoned for speaking the Gospel, something that could never happen to a pope today
  7. Peter taught that all believers are priests, not a select few.
  8. Peter wrote that believers are kept by the power of God, pope’s have taught we are kept by sacraments(works).
There are many other inconsistencies regarding papal succession. There were at times two popes, sometimes none. The only clear “first” pope that can be traced is in the forth century, when pagan rome suddenly was absorbed into “Christianity”. Hence the first Roman pope was
Pope Constantine I (306 — 337).
 
Pope Constantine? Come again?
This is the second time in two days that I have seen this absurd “fact” stated on these boards.
All the Lorraine Boettner disciples seem to be out in force lately, don’t they?

Praying to John Paul II that he intercede for these poor souls and bring them to Christ. . .
 
Hey unworthysinner,

The arguments that you’re presenting here have been dealt with many times in other threads. Here is some reading for you on the subject if you are truly interested in learning about the history of the church and papal succession.

catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp
40.png
unworthysinner:
The only clear “first” pope that can be traced is in the forth century, when pagan rome suddenly was absorbed into “Christianity”. Hence the first Roman pope was
Pope Constantine I (306 — 337).
This statement is incorrect, like the other assertions you make (unfortunately I don’t have time to answer them all). Constantine was never a pope. For a correct listing of the successors of Peter as Bishop of Rome, see Eusebius’ Ecclesiastical History. Also, see Augustine’s letter to Generosus where he lists the succession as well:
For, to Peter succeeded Linus, to Linus Clement, to Clement Anacletus, to Anacletus Evaristus, to Evaristus Sixtus, to Sixtus Telesphorus, to Telesphorus Hyginus, to Hyginus Anicletus, to Anicletus Pius, to Pius Soter, to Soter Alexander, to Alexander Victor, to Victor Zephyrinus, to Zephyrinus Calistus, to Calistus Urban, to Urban Pontian, to Pontian Antherus, to Antherus Fabian, to Fabian Cornelius, to Cornelius Lucius, to Lucius Stephen, to Stephen Sixtus, to Sixtus Dionysius, to Dionysius Felix to Felix Eutychian to Eutychian Gaius, to Gaius Marcellus, to Marcellus Eusebius, to Eusebius Melchiades, to Melchiades Sylvester, to Sylvester Marcus, to Marcus Julius, to Julius Liberius, to Liberius Damasus, to Damasus Siricius, to Siricius Anastasius.
I sincerely hope you are truly interested in learning about Church History, it is rich and deeper than I could have ever imagined when I started studying it. A lot of misconceptions melt away when you begin to see what the early church actually taught.

God Bless.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top