"He descended into hell" or "He descended to the dead"?

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DaComboMan said:
In French it stays as “aux enfers” = to the hells.

In Italian it’s “agli inferi” = to the hells again.

It should really be intended as lower regions (limbo, purgatory etc.) but not hell as permanent place.
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In the Creed today at Church, we read: He descended onto the dead.
 
“onto the dead” would be closest, but what we write here won’t change things.

It’s just that you want to find a way to explain it to the ordinary people.

“A Guide to the New Translation of the Mass” by Edward Sri in the U.S. tackles only the Nicene Creed.

People in Canada use mostly the Apostles’ Creed.
So hopefully someone here from Canada can enlighten us.

Of course, in the States they use the Apostles’ Creed for the Rosary
but i don’t think they will find an written explanation any time soon.
 
Wait, what is hell really? Isn’t that people who were separated from God? Isn’t this the people who lived before Christ and were unbaptized? Christ released them from hell, not because they were there because they were sinners, but they were righteous people who had no way to get to God. And through Christ they were united with God.
 
Constantine, that is true but there were souls separated forever (Lucifer, his cohort etc.).
There are those down there for whom Christs’ Redemptive action had no effect.

Hence we need to “invent” the word hells.
 
Yup, we need an updated Engish version for the word Hell.

Just like when we used to say fish even in plural form,
now we can say fishes or hells?

In French (aux enfers) and Italian (agli inferi) you get the sense of these “lower regions”.

It’s not going to be easy to implement these novelties! 🤷
 
Wait, what is hell really? Isn’t that people who were separated from God?
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More specifically, I think it’s the absence of the Beatific Vision after death.
 
DaComboMan said:
Constantine, that is true but there were souls separated forever (Lucifer, his cohort etc.).
There are those down there for whom Christs’ Redemptive action had no effect.

Hence we need to “invent” the word hells.
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I do not believe Christ’s redemptive action had no effect on some. God is not limited. The problem is not that Christ didn’t redeem them, but those who are in hell are those who by their own wills chose to deny God. Lucifer is much the same thing. He was created to serve God, yet he chose to see himself as equal to God.
 
It is my understanding that the Apostles’ Creed did not originate from the Council of Trent. Rather, it draws its language from a series of responses required in Christian baptism as early as the 2nd century. If this is correct, while not composed by the Apostles or any of them, the affirmations may date from their time and teaching.
 
mdgspencer said:
When the creed said Christ descended into hell, it did not refer to the hell we think of when we use the word hell. The word used in the original, ancient Greek form of the creed actually meant something closer to the idea of the underworld, where all the dead were. Before Christ, people did not go to heaven–only through Christ were the doors of heaven opened to the just. All the dead had be in another place, of course, the good as well as the evil. This is the place meant when the creed said Christ descended to hell.
Many people are bewildered to hear that Christ descended into hell, because they assume the word hell means what we commonly think it means. I was bewildered about this myself after I became a Catholic fifty years ago. What I presume what happened is that because of
such bewilderment the original Greek word in the original form of the creed is now translated as “dead” rather than “hell.” The translation of the word involved as “hell” is actually a poor translation, since the creed never meant “hell” as we now think of hell.
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But if this is the case, how is it that Elijah and Moses were seen by the apostles speaking with Jesus before his death? Where did they come from, if not Heaven?
 
St. Thomas Aquinas said the Elijah did not ascend into heaven but a different place that he called a paradise. Christ told his disciples that when he dies he will go to prepare a place for them in his Father’s house, that is in heaven. He said he will go and prepare a place for them, so that they can go there too. (Jn 14:3). That is, they could not go to heaven before he went himself. This shows that people did not go to heaven before Christ died. And too the Old Testament does not show that there was generally faith in heaven in Israel.
That leaves us with the question, where did Elijah and Moses go when they died? The important thing here is that it was not heaven. The opinion of St. Thomas Aquinas is at least as good as any to where they went.
 
From an ancient homily for Holy Saturday: The Lord’s descent into Hell

vatican.va/spirit/documents/spirit_20010414_omelia-sabato-santo_en.html
The Lord’s descent into hell
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"What is happening? Today there is a great silence over the earth, a great silence, and stillness, a great silence because the King sleeps; the earth was in terror and was still, because God slept in the flesh and raised up those who were sleeping from the ages. God has died in the flesh, and the underworld has trembled.
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Truly he goes to seek out our first parent like a lost sheep; he wishes to visit those who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death. He goes to free the prisoner Adam and his fellow-prisoner Eve from their pains, he who is God, and Adam’s son.
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The Lord goes in to them holding his victorious weapon, his cross. When Adam, the first created man, sees him, he strikes his breast in terror and calls out to all: ‘My Lord be with you all.’ And Christ in reply says to Adam: ‘And with your spirit.’ And grasping his hand he raises him up, saying: ‘Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give you light.
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‘I am your God, who for your sake became your son, who for you and your descendants now speak and command with authority those in prison: Come forth, and those in darkness: Have light, and those who sleep: Rise.
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‘I command you: Awake, sleeper, I have not made you to be held a prisoner in the underworld. Arise from the dead; I am the life of the dead. Arise, O man, work of my hands, arise, you who were fashioned in my image. Rise, let us go hence; for you in me and I in you, together we are one undivided person.
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‘For you, I your God became your son; for you, I the Master took on your form; that of slave; for you, I who am above the heavens came on earth and under the earth; for you, man, I became as a man without help, free among the dead; for you, who left a garden, I was handed over to Jews from a garden and crucified in a garden.
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‘Look at the spittle on my face, which I received because of you, in order to restore you to that first divine inbreathing at creation. See the blows on my cheeks, which I accepted in order to refashion your distorted form to my own image.
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'See the scourging of my back, which I accepted in order to disperse the load of your sins which was laid upon your back. See my hands nailed to the tree for a good purpose, for you, who stretched out your hand to the tree for an evil one.
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`I slept on the cross and a sword pierced my side, for you, who slept in paradise and brought forth Eve from your side. My side healed the pain of your side; my sleep will release you from your sleep in Hades; my sword has checked the sword which was turned against you.
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‘But arise, let us go hence. The enemy brought you out of the land of paradise; I will reinstate you, no longer in paradise, but on the throne of heaven. I denied you the tree of life, which was a figure, but now I myself am united to you, I who am life. I posted the cherubim to guard you as they would slaves; now I make the cherubim worship you as they would God.
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“The cherubim throne has been prepared, the bearers are ready and waiting, the bridal chamber is in order, the food is provided, the everlasting houses and rooms are in readiness; the treasures of good things have been opened; the kingdom of heaven has been prepared before the ages.”
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A reading from an ancient homily for Holy Saturday
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Prayer
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Almighty, ever-living God, whose Only-begotten Son descended to the realm of the dead, and rose from there to glory, grant that your faithful people, who were buried with him in baptism, may, by his resurrection, obtain eternal life.
(We make our prayer) through our Lord.
(Through Christ our Lord.)
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That’s beautiful! 🙂

But I still am left wondering–if those who died prior to Christ were “asleep” in Hades, then how could they appear with Jesus prior to His death?
 
zenith15 said:
That’s beautiful! 🙂

But I still am left wondering–if those who died prior to Christ were “asleep” in Hades, then how could they appear with Jesus prior to His death?
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Hades and Paradise are the same place. Paradise is the resting place of the redeemed before the final judgement and is open to those who trust in Jesus. If you remember Jesus said to the repentant thief, “Today you will be with me in Paradise.” Where did they both go? They went to the grave and this is where we all go until the resurrection. 🙂

Before anyone asks, Jesus conquered Hell which is death. So firstly Jesus was in paradise which is the grave and when he rose again he conquered death which is Hell.

.
 
MarkThompson said:
“He descended to the dead” is the old translation. “He descended into hell” is the new translation that is coming into force this year.
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Actually descended to the dead was the new and improved translation thrust upon us. Descended into Hell was the old one which has now been restored along with other mistranslations or miwsinterpretations by ICEL
 
Mike30 said:
Actually descended to the dead was the new and improved translation thrust upon us. Descended into Hell was the old one which has now been restored along with other mistranslations or miwsinterpretations by ICEL
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What I said was correct. Your point is entirely opaque, I’m afraid.
 
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