He didn't say, "faith alone"

[De_Maria]

When St. Paul said, “justified by faith apart from works”, Luther interpreted that as faith “alone”: But that s not what St. Paul meant. St. Paul was teaching the justification which occurs in the Sacraments.

Let me explain:

St. Paul taught the Catholic Teaching that only those who do the works of the Law are justified:

Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In Catholic Teaching, we are justified by faith and works. That is the foundation and root of all justification. Faith is expressed and perfected in works.

However, the Church also teaches that we are justified in the Sacraments where we are washed in sanctifying grace. Especially Baptism. Sacraments are God’s mighty works. We don’t do anything except submit to His works in the proper dispostion, which is that of faith.

This is the Justification by faith apart from works to which St. Paul referred.

The process is evident in every semester of RCIA. By faith, we seek the Lord and study to show ourselves approved. Only those who undergo this process are then JUSTIFIED in Baptism.

Lets take another example.

St. Paul says:
Galatians 2:16

King James Version (KJV)

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Notice how he repeatedly says here, “faith OF Christ”. Not “by faith IN Christ”. He is not speaking about believing in Christ. That is assumed. He is speaking about the observance of the rituals instituted by Christ in His new way. He is speaking of the Sacraments.

And this, is Luther’s error. He did not connect the Sacramental teaching of St. Paul. Luther recognized the Sacraments and he recognized the perfection of the sinner in the justification by faith. But denied the merit of that expression of faith in good works without which no one will be saved. And he applied St. Paul’s teaching wrongly across the board. He failed to recognize the difference between the justification by faith and works that occurs as a result of the effort of the man of God which is illustrated by St. Peter below:

2 Peter 1:4-10

King James Version (KJV)

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

And that justifcation by faith apart from works which occurs by the action of God in the Sacraments:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What do you think?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[josephback]

Very interesting. I’m gonna mark my place so that I can come back to it. So the DOERS of the law will be justified? Makes rational sense

 

[fisherman_carl]

I’ve never heard that argument before. My bible (NAB) does not say ‘faith of Christ’ but faith in Christ.

“[yet] who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”

• Gal 2:16 (NAB)

faith of Christ or faith in Christ are the same. Otherwise they wouldn’t have translated it that way in the NAB or the RSV-CE. One could say that faith in Christ comes from Christ. So that it is the faith of Christ.

I would say a strong connection to faith and works from St. Paul is where he says we are called to the ‘obedience of faith’ mentioned in Romans 1:5 and 16:26. The obedience of faith suggests that obedience and faith are not separated.

Luther’s ‘faith alone’ was not a faith that did not produce works of charity. Luther’s faith alone was a faith that included works. The reason the Catholic Church condemned Luther’s ‘faith alone’ was because at that time the definition of faith was mere intellectual assent. Luther’s definition of faith was not merely intellectual assent. However, the Church found it misleading to people who thought it was. Thus, it was condemned. The Pope himself said we are justified by faith alone if it is a faith that is working in charity. We are justified by a faith that is working in love as in Gal 5:6.

To be justified means to have established a right relationship with God. Justification involves the cleansing of sin, the infusion of the divine life, and the adoption of the believer into the family of God through Baptism (1 Cor 6:11, tit 3:5) (CCC 1987-95).

Paul says we are justified by Christ and not works of the Law. What are works of the Law? That is the Mosaic law of the OT. No one is justified by the works of the Law because no one is perfect before God. We are all sinners. Thus, it is by grace that we are saved, through faith and not by works (Eph 2:8) and come into an initial justification before God in Baptism. As we mature as a Christian our works of charity by grace complete our faith and thus our justification (James 2:22,2:24). We do the works that God has prepared in advance (Eph 2:10).

The works that Paul talks about are works of the Law and are not the same works that James talks about. James’ works are works of charity like looking after orphans. Paul’s works are works of obedience to the Mosaic Law as given by Moses. Paul is saying we are justified apart from the Mosaic Law, but he is not saying we are justified apart from obedience to Christ. He says we are justified by faith in Christ. And what is faith in Christ? It is not merely intellectual assent, but it means we obey Christ. For if you say you believe in something but you do not ascribe to that belief in your actions is your faith profitable?

"You see that faith was active along with his [Abraham’s] works, and faith was completed by the works…See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. "

• James 2:22-24

 

[someguy14]

James in accord with Paul .

James 2:14 KJV
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17 KJV
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say , Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20 KJV
But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:22 KJV
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect ?

James 2:24 KJV
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only.

James 2:26 KJV
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi, thanks for your response.

I’ve never heard that argument before. My bible (NAB) does not say ‘faith of Christ’ but faith in Christ.

“[yet] who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.”

• Gal 2:16 (NAB)

faith of Christ or faith in Christ are the same. Otherwise they wouldn’t have translated it that way in the NAB or the RSV-CE. One could say that faith in Christ comes from Christ. So that it is the faith of Christ.

I use the Protestant bibles when I debate with Protestants.
The NIV has a footnote there:
Galatians 2:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in[a] Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Footnotes:
Galatians 2:16 Or but through the faithfulness of … justified on the basis of the faithfulness of

However, the Douay renders it the same as the KJV:
[16] But knowing that man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ; we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

I would say a strong connection to faith and works from St. Paul is where he says we are called to the ‘obedience of faith’ mentioned in Romans 1:5 and 16:26. The obedience of faith suggests that obedience and faith are not separated.

That is true. But I never denied that St. Paul taught faith and works. Just not in Romans 3:28 or Titus 3:5. In those verses where he says, “justified apart from works of the law or saved NOT by righteous works”, he is speaking of justification in the Sacraments. Baptism being the prime example of justification.

Luther’s ‘faith alone’ was not a faith that did not produce works of charity. Luther’s faith alone was a faith that included works. The reason the Catholic Church condemned Luther’s ‘faith alone’ was because at that time the definition of faith was mere intellectual assent. Luther’s definition of faith was not merely intellectual assent. However, the Church found it misleading to people who thought it was. Thus, it was condemned. The Pope himself said we are justified by faith alone if it is a faith that is working in charity. We are justified by a faith that is working in love as in Gal 5:6.

On the contrary, Luther taught that one is justified by their faith alone. A statement that contradicts Scripture blatantly.

His idea of works is that they came AFTER one is saved. But Scripture is clear that we are not saved without them and only those who produce good works are saved by God.

To be justified means to have established a right relationship with God. Justification involves the cleansing of sin, the infusion of the divine life, and the adoption of the believer into the family of God through Baptism (1 Cor 6:11, tit 3:5) (CCC 1987-95).

The beginning of justification is conversion. Which begins well before Baptism and one is not Baptized unless one is already cooperating with the grace of God:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace;

Scripture says:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Paul says we are justified by Christ and not works of the Law. What are works of the Law? That is the Mosaic law of the OT. No one is justified by the works of the Law because no one is perfect before God. We are all sinners. Thus, it is by grace that we are saved, through faith and not by works (Eph 2:8) and come into an initial justification before God in Baptism.

On the contrary, as seen above, only those who keep the law will be justified by God. The works of the law don’t justify. But those who DON’T KEEP THE LAW WILL NOT BE JUSTIFIED.

That s plain. The law reveals our sins. And if we don’t repent of our sins and begin to keep the law, God won’t justify. We will die in our sins. Therefore, repentance of sins, a work by the way, precedes justification.

As we mature as a Christian our works of charity by grace complete our faith and thus our justification (James 2:22,2:24). We do the works that God has prepared in advance (Eph 2:10).

Precisely. We continue being justified. Again Trent says:
CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED

Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]

This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]

The works that Paul talks about are works of the Law and are not the same works that James talks about.

The works which James is speaking of and the works which St. Paul are speaking of are one and the same.

James’ works are works of charity like looking after orphans. Paul’s works are works of obedience to the Mosaic Law as given by Moses. Paul is saying we are justified apart from the Mosaic Law, but he is not saying we are justified apart from obedience to Christ.

If you are obedient to Christ, you had better keep the Commandments which are the main component of the Mosaic law. And if you want to be obedient to Christ, you had better do righteous works.

He says we are justified by faith in Christ. And what is faith in Christ?

Christ instituted the Sacraments. Therefore faith in Christ includes believing that we are saved by participating in the Sacraments.

It is not merely intellectual assent, but it means we obey Christ.

And what did Christ say:
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

For if you say you believe in something but you do not ascribe to that belief in your actions is your faith profitable?

"You see that faith was active along with his [Abraham’s] works, and faith was completed by the works…See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. "

• James 2:22-24

But the Sacraments are the works of God. And in the Sacraments we rest of our righteous works and rely upon the promises which God made in the Sacraments. The right disposition is one of faith. And we are saved in the Sacraments, to the extent of our faith. Not by our righteous works.

In the Sacraments, we are renewed and regenerated by God that we may continue to be justified by faith and works when we are sent out to do that which Christ commanded.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

James in accord with Paul .

James 2:14 KJV
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:17 KJV
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say , Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James 2:20 KJV
But wilt thou know , O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:22 KJV
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect ?

James 2:24 KJV
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified , and not by faith only.

James 2:26 KJV
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Actually, he is. But you have to go back to James 1 to see where they are saying the same thing:
James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Otherwise, it sounds as though they contradict each other:
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The correct explanation is that St. Paul is speaking about the justification that occurs in Baptism and the other Sacraments. Wherein, we rest of our works which preceded the Sacraments and which will follow the Sacraments.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[anruari]

As already stated, St Pauls “you are saved by Faith, and not by Works of the Law”

the “Works of the Law” here refer to something very specific. They do not refere to the whole of the Law of Moses. They refer to the acts of Temple Worship (not The Law, but the Works of the Law (notice the capital letters when written in modern style)

The offering of blood sacrifices 3 times a year.
The Circumcision of your male children.
The various other observances of ritual cleanliness etc etc etc.
(Not the laws which define what a sin is)

They are the requirements of the Old Covenant. Pauls point is taht Christians are not under the covenant of Moses. We are under the Covenant of Jesus
For us the things we must do to be saved (The Works of Our Covenant) are:

Love the Lord your God with All your Heart, All your Soul, All your Mind and All your Strength. Love your neighbour as yourself.
(Jesus said this, reported in all 3 synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke). The first part was a quote from Deuteronomy 6:5
To Love your neighbour as yourself requires that you a) look after the material needs of others (charity) and that you look after their spiritual needs (evangalisation). Those later requirements are expounded upon elsewhere, and spelled out in both the Gospels and the Epistles.
That which you do the the least of my brethren you did to Me (Mt 25:45)

Be Baptised
“Unless a man is born again by Water and by Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven” (Jn 3:5)
“Baptise them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” (Matt 28:19)

Receive Holy Communion
Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will have no life within you (whole of John Chapter 6)

It is clear from the above that in no way can someone in good conscience teach that the only thing you need to do to be “saved” is to have a momentary conversion and “believe” in Jesus, thereby resulting in you being “saved” permanently forever. Such a teaching totally flies in the face with everything the bible teaches.
A simplistic modern interpretation of “Saved by faith alone”,(where “Faith” is interpreted as “belief”) is wrong
“Faith” must include everything above, and must be continuous, and *faithful * in the way a spouse must be faithful to their beloved. - “Till death do us part”. in the case of faithfulness to God, death is not a separation, but a joining, therefore it is not the end, but a new beginning.

As such *Faith * in a biblical context is not simple belief, but much much more.

Sola Fide is heretical because it is too easy to interpret it in a simplistic way, and too difficult to draw out from it all the implications listed above. *Especially *now in the 21st century, where in english the word “Faith” means “Belief” to the lay- person

---

In the above quotations / paraphrases I have worked mostly from memory, and have not been had time to quote specific translations of the bible. I have used Google to find the references & check that my wording agrees with easy to find translations. - I am a strong advocate in using MULTIPLE translations when the meaning of a passage is complicated. NO translation can be perfect - that is linguistically impossible. I prefer NOT to use translations which are into a version of language that was already dead or archaic when the translation was made
(E.G. Archaic English translations - although they can be useful for cross reference where personal pronouns are complicated - they can also obfuscate meanings in other ways where the english language has moved significantly in 600 years.)

 

[fisherman_carl]

In those verses where he says, “justified apart from works of the law or saved NOT by righteous works”, he is speaking of justification in the Sacraments. Baptism being the prime example of justification.

I agree that justification involves the sacrament of Baptism. However, I don’t think you can say from this one scripture passage alone that Paul is talking about the sacraments here. Based on what do you come to that conclusion? Any sources in the Catechism? I think you would have a hard time convincing any Protestant of that.

On the contrary, Luther taught that one is justified by their faith alone. A statement that contradicts Scripture blatantly.

His idea of works is that they came AFTER one is saved. But Scripture is clear that we are not saved without them and only those who produce good works are saved by God.

I agree that Luther taught faith alone and works come after justification. However his definition of faith alone did not mean merely intellectual assent as was the common definition of the time. But rather that faith brings about works. This I learned from listening to Scott Hahn.

Different Protestants have different definitions of what ‘faith alone’ means. Calvin’s definition of ‘faith alone’ meant something different than Luther’s. Luther taught that faith was generated from oneself. While Calvin taught that one could not generate enough faith from oneself to possibly justify. So he was accused of going back to the Catholic view. Because what Calvin is saying in effect is that God only justifies the person he transforms and makes righteous and godly. So the Lutherans accused the Calvinists of kicking out the front door what they are bringing back in through the back door.

In Catholic teaching we are justified by a formed faith, that is a faith that is formed by works of charity. Thus, we could say we are justified by a formed faith alone (justification sola fide formata).
see ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

To say that true faith is a faith that bring about works is similar to the idea of a formed faith. In both cases you are saying that faith and works are working together. You are just saying it in two different ways.

"To be justified means to have established a right relationship with God. Justification involves the cleansing of sin, the infusion of the divine life, and the adoption of the believer into the family of God through Baptism (1 Cor 6:11, tit 3:5) (CCC 1987-95). "

I’m not sure why you have a problem with that. It is a direct quote from the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, commentary on Gal 2:16.

The beginning of justification is conversion. Which begins well before Baptism and one is not Baptized unless one is already cooperating with the grace of God:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace;

The preparation for justification may be at conversion. But, we are not normally justified until baptism. Itt is at baptism that we receive that grace for our justification. That is why baptism is a requirement for salvation in the Catholic Church. If we could be justified apart from baptism then it would not be a requirement. In baptism we believe our sins are forgiven. We are cleansed from original and actual sin. One can not be justified (made right before God) until one’s sins are forgiven.

"2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life. "
CCC 2017

archive.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

 

[fisherman_carl]

CONT’D

On the contrary, as seen above, only those who keep the law will be justified by God. The works of the law don’t justify. But those who DON’T KEEP THE LAW WILL NOT BE JUSTIFIED.

That s plain. The law reveals our sins. And if we don’t repent of our sins and begin to keep the law, God won’t justify. We will die in our sins. Therefore, repentance of sins, a work by the way, precedes justification.

“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

• Rom 3:20

Scripture plainly says that no one will be justified by works of the law. The law only pointed out our sin and is a basis for our condemnation. Thus, the only way we can be justified is through faith in Christ. (Rom 3:28). So we have a righteousness that is apart from keeping the law. Does this mean we are free to break the moral law, like the 10 commandments? No. Rather, we are justified and are made new creatures in Christ, free from our old natures, and that makes us free to obey God’s moral laws. No longer slaves to sin we become slaves to God.

We are no longer bound by the Mosaic ceremonial laws like circumcision or Sabbath. For we died to the law. But we are still bound by conscience to obey the moral laws. For God writes his laws on our hearts. Thus, to disobey our conscience means we are convicted of sin. To remain in grave unrepentant sin is to fall from grace and lose our justification. However, should we sin, we can repent and go to the sacrament of confession to restore the grace of our justification that was lost due to mortal sin.

The works which James is speaking of and the works which St. Paul are speaking of are one and the same.

No. St. James is speaking of works of obedience to Christ. He is talking about works of mercy that Christ commands. St. Paul is speaking of works of the Law which is the Mosaic Law. St. Paul is addressing specifically circumcision in Romans because he is writing to the Roman Jewish Christians who are saying that gentiles need to be circumcised.

If Paul and James were speaking of the same works then what they said contradicts.

“For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”

• Rom 3:28

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”
James 2:24

Paul says ‘works of the law’. James is talking about looking after orphans and widows, that is works of mercy (see James 1:27). Paul is speaking about new Christians being justified at baptism. James is talking about already baptized Christians and their ongoing fidelity and obedience to Christ who calls us to works of mercy. In baptism we are justified before God. If we were to die immediately after being baptized we would go straight to heaven. However, our ongoing justification necessitates fidelity to Christ.

If you are obedient to Christ, you had better keep the Commandments which are the main component of the Mosaic law. And if you want to be obedient to Christ, you had better do righteous works.

Agreed. However, we are empowered to keep the moral commandments by grace. And we are able to do works that are pleasing to God only by grace. As Christ says, we can do nothing without him.

 

[De_Maria]

As already stated, St Pauls “you are saved by Faith, and not by Works of the Law”

the “Works of the Law” here refer to something very specific. They do not refere to the whole of the Law of Moses. They refer to the acts of Temple Worship (not The Law, but the Works of the Law (notice the capital letters when written in modern style)

The offering of blood sacrifices 3 times a year.
The Circumcision of your male children.
The various other observances of ritual cleanliness etc etc etc.
(Not the laws which define what a sin is)

They are the requirements of the Old Covenant. Pauls point is taht Christians are not under the covenant of Moses. We are under the Covenant of Jesus
For us the things we must do to be saved (The Works of Our Covenant) are:…

I don’t mean to ignore the rest of your message. However, the point which I’m making is addressed here.

If all which St. Paul had said were, “we are not justified by works of the law”, then perhaps you might have a point. However, he said much more:

Romans 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Here it is simply “works”.

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Here also.

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

And here.

Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Now to me, this is the most explicit, showing precisely the point I’m making:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The terminology, “works of righteousness” excludes nothing. It excludes neither the Ten Commandments nor the works of the “temple” as you call them, nor the ordinances nor the works of spiritual and physical mercy. The term, “works of righteousness” does not even exclude “faith”. Because faith itself is a work.

Then, see what he says next. We are not saved by any of our works, but we are saved by His Mercy. In His Mercy, He died for us on the Cross and established what?

The Sacraments! It is Catholic doctrine that the grace released on the Cross is given us through the Sacraments. And the description “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost” applies only to the Sacraments, especially Baptism, but really all of them.

This is why, I believe, that when St. Paul said, “justified by faith apart from works” he was talking of the Sacramental justification we all undergo in God’s mighty works of mercy.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fisherman_carl]

In baptism we are justified before God

“We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.”

• Rom 6:4

 

[De_Maria]

I agree that justification involves the sacrament of Baptism. However, I don’t think you can say from this one scripture passage alone that Paul is talking about the sacraments here. Based on what do you come to that conclusion?

Based upon the following. St. Paul frequently addresses the point of justification by faith apart from works.:

Romans 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

Ephesians 2:9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Now to me, this is the most explicit, showing precisely the point I’m making:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

The terminology, “works of righteousness” excludes nothing. It excludes neither the Ten Commandments nor the ordinances nor the works of spiritual and physical mercy. The term, “works of righteousness” does not even exclude “faith”. Because faith itself is a work.

Then, see what he says next. We are not saved by any of our works, but we are saved by His Mercy. In His Mercy, He died for us on the Cross and established what?

The Sacraments! It is Catholic doctrine that the grace released on the Cross is given us through the Sacraments. And the description “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost” applies only to the Sacraments, especially Baptism, but really all of them.

This is why, I believe, that when St. Paul said, “justified by faith apart from works” he was talking of the Sacramental justification we all undergo in God’s mighty works of mercy.

Any sources in the Catechism?

Yes. The Catechism says:
740 These “mighty works of God,” offered to believers in the sacraments of the Church, bear their fruit in the new life in Christ, according to the Spirit. (This will be the topic of Part Three.)

1074 “The liturgy is the summit toward which the activity of the Church is directed; it is also the font from which all her power flows.” It is therefore the privileged place for catechizing the People of God. “Catechesis is intrinsically linked with the whole of liturgical and sacramental activity, for it is in the sacraments, especially in the Eucharist, that Christ Jesus works in fullness for the transformation of men.”

Trent also says:
CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES

This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]

The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one’s disposition and cooperation.

Note that we don’t cause our own justification. God does it all:
the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

I think you would have a hard time convincing any Protestant of that.

I’m not into convincing Protestants of anything. I simply tell the truth. God makes the growth. It is by grace we are called. You and I don’t give grace. We simply cooperate with the grace God has given us.

I agree that Luther taught faith alone and works come after justification. However his definition of faith alone did not mean merely intellectual assent as was the common definition of the time. But rather that faith brings about works. This I learned from listening to Scott Hahn.

I understand. Hm? How to explain?

Ok, here. First of all, there is no such thing as justification by faith and works. Nada. nope. never.

Yet. It is true, we are justified by faith and works, in a manner of speaking.

Confused? Here’s the thing. God justifies. Faith doesn’t justify. Neither do works. That is CATHOLIC TEACHING. Let me read one little sentence from Trent:
and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. (Trent 6, Chapter VIII).

Ok, so if neither faith and works justify us, why is it true that we are justified by faith and works?

Because in order to be justified BY GOD, we must keep the Commandments:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

That is simply logical. Those who violate the Commandments commit sin. How do we examine our conscience? We compare our actions to the Commandments.

If you doubt that this is true, check the RCIA process.

1. The adult is taught the faith.
2. The adult is expected to live the faith he is taught.
3. Then the adult is permitted to be baptized and become a member of the family of God.

DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

Is that the end of the process? Yes and no. RCIA is simply the introduction to the faith. But when one completes that process he is expected to live the Sacramental life. What is that?

One is expected to:
Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

So, again we can say:
DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.

Faith and works before the Sacraments.
Faith apart from works during the Sacrament itself.
Faith and works after the Sacrament.

Let us revisit Trent:
CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED

Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]

This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]

So what does that have to do with Luther?

Even though Luther did not preach a mere “intellectual assent”, he did not preach that one had to fulfill the requirements of the Law BEFORE BAPTISM. He taught that one would do so after justification which he believed occurred only in Baptism. Correct me if I’m wrong.

However, the Church teaches that before we are baptized we must keep the Law.
And after we are baptized we must keep the law.
And before every Sacrament we must keep the law.
And after every Sacrament we must keep the law.

But when we submit to the Sacraments, we need only “a proper disposition”, which to me simply means that we believe that God will do what He promised. The word which best describes this “disposition”, is faith.

Sorry for such a long response. I didn’t know how to explain my understanding more briefly.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Different Protestants have different definitions of what ‘faith alone’ means. Calvin’s definition of ‘faith alone’ meant something different than Luther’s. Luther taught that faith was generated from oneself. While Calvin taught that one could not generate enough faith from oneself to possibly justify. So he was accused of going back to the Catholic view. Because what Calvin is saying in effect is that God only justifies the person he transforms and makes righteous and godly. So the Lutherans accused the Calvinists of kicking out the front door what they are bringing back in through the back door.

That does sound very much like the Catholic view.

In Catholic teaching we are justified by a formed faith, that is a faith that is formed by works of charity. Thus, we could say we are justified by a formed faith alone (justification sola fide formata).
see ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/SOLAFIDE.htm

No. That is false. We are not justified by formed faith alone. Only those whose faith is formed are justified by God. That is the most precise way of saying.

To say that true faith is a faith that bring about works is similar to the idea of a formed faith. In both cases you are saying that faith and works are working together. You are just saying it in two different ways.

"To be justified means to have established a right relationship with God. Justification involves the cleansing of sin, the infusion of the divine life, and the adoption of the believer into the family of God through Baptism (1 Cor 6:11, tit 3:5) (CCC 1987-95). "

Understanding that Baptism is the work of God. If God doesn’t work through Baptism, then it is a mere bath with water. Take for instance the Baptism of the Mormons. It is not a Sacrament. It is an exercise in how wet one can get.

I’m not sure why you have a problem with that. It is a direct quote from the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, commentary on Gal 2:16.

To what are you referring?

The preparation for justification may be at conversion. But, we are not normally justified until baptism.

Justification by faith and works begins before Baptism and continues afterward.

Itt is at baptism that we receive that grace for our justification. That is why baptism is a requirement for salvation in the Catholic Church. If we could be justified apart from baptism then it would not be a requirement. In baptism we believe our sins are forgiven. We are cleansed from original and actual sin. One can not be justified (made right before God) until one’s sins are forgiven.

All that is true. But the Jews were justified with Baptism and God does not change. Therefore, something else changed. What is it that changed?

Christ offered the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit to us in this life. The Jews must await their judgement in the hereafter to become members of the Body of Christ. We enter onto Mt. Sion in this life.

"2017 The grace of the Holy Spirit confers upon us the righteousness of God. Uniting us by faith and Baptism to the Passion and Resurrection of Christ, the Spirit makes us sharers in his life. "
CCC 2017

archive.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

That is true. But it must be weighed against this:
Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through “baptism of blood,” martyrdom for Christ, or through “baptism of desire”, that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism. (archive.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp"]same document).

Again, sorry for such a long response.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

“For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.”

• Rom 3:20

Scripture plainly says that no one will be justified by works of the law. The law only pointed out our sin and is a basis for our condemnation. …

Agreed! That is my point. Think about it. Only those who keep the Commandments will be baptized. Only those who keep the Commandments will receive Holy Eucharist. It is Catholic Teaching:
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments,** that they may have right to the tree of life**, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

The right to the Tree of Life refers to the Sacrament of Eucharist. But also to the participation in the life of Christ which is Sanctifying Grace.

We are no longer bound by the Mosaic ceremonial laws like circumcision or Sabbath.

We are still bound by the Sabbath. If you listened to Dr. Hahn, the Sabbath, Sheva, Covenant oath, was simply shifted to another day. Everyday, in the Mass. Or to the Lord’s day, in the dominical (Sunday) requirement when the Lord arose.

For we died to the law. But we are still bound by conscience to obey the moral laws. For God writes his laws on our hearts…

All that is true and re affirms what I said. For we can’t go back to the Sacraments until we repent and detest our sin which is revealed by the Commandments.

No. St. James is speaking of works of obedience to Christ. He is talking about works of mercy that Christ commands.

Correct.

St. Paul is speaking of works of the Law which is the Mosaic Law. St. Paul is addressing specifically circumcision in Romans because he is writing to the Roman Jewish Christians who are saying that gentiles need to be circumcised.

If Paul and James were speaking of the same works then what they said contradicts.

They are speaking of the same works. In my opinion, it is a testament to the Holy Spirit protecting them from error that St. James did not contradict St. Paul. Because he intended to prove St. Paul wrong:

1. St. James did believe that St. Paul was teaching falsely. See Acts 21
   20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

1. It is no coincidence that the words of St. James seem to contradict the words of St. Paul:
   Galatians 2:16
   **Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, **even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

1. The reason they don’t contradict is because St. Paul is a theologian (Acts 22:3). He is speaking in specific detail. St. James is not. He is speaking in abstract terms. His is a manner of speaking.

St. Paul is absolutely correct. We are not justified by works. We are justified by God.
St. James is correct also. We are justified by faith and works because only those whose faith is formed by works of love will be justified by God.

“For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law.”

• Rom 3:28

“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone”
James 2:24

Paul says ‘works of the law’.

He says that here. But in other places he merely says “works”. In Titus 3:5, he says “works of righteousness”.

James is talking about looking after orphans and widows, that is works of mercy (see James 1:27). Paul is speaking about new Christians being justified at baptism. James is talking about already baptized Christians and their ongoing fidelity and obedience to Christ who calls us to works of mercy.

They are both talking about any and everybody. Everyone, Christian or not, must obey the Commandments of God. And everyone who wants to be justified in the Sacraments must obey the Commandments of God as well.

In baptism we are justified before God. If we were to die immediately after being baptized we would go straight to heaven. However, our ongoing justification necessitates fidelity to Christ.

Correct. But if I may add:

1. Before Baptism we must be just before men and God. See the RCIA process. First a person must conform to this process before the properly authorized church officer will permit that person to undergo Baptism.
2. The process of justification known as “conversion” begins before Baptism.
3. During the process of conversion, one is already receiving and cooperating with the prevenient grace of God.

Agreed. However, we are empowered to keep the moral commandments by grace. And we are able to do works that are pleasing to God only by grace. As Christ says, we can do nothing without him.

Agreed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

In baptism we are justified before God

“We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life.”

• Rom 6:4

Agreed!

Now tell me, what did you do when the water was poured upon you, to wash your sins away?

Put another way, did you wash your own sins away or did God wash your sins away?

I say that God did the work, I merely believed His promise. Therefore, in the Sacraments, I was justified apart from my own works.

Before and after the Sacraments, I was justified by God because of my faith and works.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[someguy14]

Otherwise, it sounds as though they contradict each other:

I have heard non believers say they contradict each other. That doesn’t make sense to me though. There was apparently a misunderstanding by doubters of that subject and James and Paul are clarifying that.

Good faith produces good works. All glory for God.

 

[fisherman_carl]

CONT’D
Ok, here. First of all, there is no such thing as justification by faith and works. Nada. nope. never.
Yet. It is true, we are justified by faith and works, in a manner of speaking.
Confused?

If I am confused it is because you are confusing.

Here’s the thing. God justifies. Faith doesn’t justify. Neither do works.

Yes, God justifies us. But, faith doesn’t justify? Have you not read Romans 3:28? works don’t justify? Have you not read James 2:24? If faith or works don’t justify us then how come everyone isn’t saved? What separates us from those who are saved and those who aren’t? Well, faith and works. Faith and works are what justifies us. But both faith and works are the operation of God’s grace working in us.

Let me read one little sentence from Trent:
and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. (Trent 6, Chapter VIII).

Yes, prior to baptismal grace , neither faith or works justify us. But, that is because we are not under grace but still under law. No faith or works that we contribute under our own power prior to Christ’s transforming grace add to our justification. For scripture says that all our works are like filthy rags. And there is not one who does what is right, not one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Thus, no one could justify themselves before God by following the law under their own power.

But after grace we are given faith and love and being justified by faith that is working in love (Gal 5:6). For both faith and works are a gift of God’s grace, not from our own power.

In baptism we are dead to the law (Rom 7:16, Gal 2:19), having died with Christ in baptism (Rom 6:4). Anyone who dies in a contract is no longer bound by that contract. Thus, we are no longer under the curse of the old covenant laws which leads to death. Instead, we are bound by the new covenant law of grace unto life. We have been given newness of life through grace, not through observing the law.

Ok, so if neither faith and works justify us, why is it true that we are justified by faith and works?

Again, you are being confusing. We are initially justified by having our sins forgiven at baptism and brought into Christ, and given the deposit of the Holy Spirit. And, we are declared just. But, this is the start of justification. For God brings to pass what he declares.

Because in order to be justified BY GOD, we must keep the Commandments:

Is that not a work? You just said that works don’t justify us. And, now you say that in order to be justified we must keep the commandments.

Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

True. But doers of what law? Certainly not circumcision or works of the law for Paul says later on that we are justified by faith and not works of the law (ROm 3:28).

In baptism we are given an initial justification before God. And our justification grows as we mature in faith, hope, and love. As justification is not simply a one time transaction as in a legal declaration as the Protestants believe. Rather, God declares us to be just in baptism, and we are given the righteousness of Christ, and then he makes his declaration come to pass actually in our lives. For just as God said ‘let there be light’ and then there was actually light, he says to us who are baptized you are righteous, and then he makes us righteous, not just legally, but actually. He infuses his grace into us so that we actually become more righteous. The more righteous we actually become, the more justified we are. We progressively become more like Christ if we cooperate with that grace. And, this is why it is a process.

Eventually, we keep the law written on our hearts, not because of our own power, but because of God’s transforming grace infused into us. Thus, no one will be able to boast before God since we are saved by grace, from start to finish.

 

[De_Maria]

I have heard non believers say they contradict each other. That doesn’t make sense to me though. There was apparently a misunderstanding by doubters of that subject and James and Paul are clarifying that.

Good faith produces good works. All glory for God.

It seems to me that St. James actually does think he is contradicting St. Paul. They are speaking of the same works. In my opinion, it is a testament to the Holy Spirit protecting them from error that St. James did not contradict St. Paul. Because he intended to prove St. Paul wrong:
A. St. James did believe that St. Paul was teaching falsely. See Acts 21
20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

B. It is no coincidence that the words of St. James seem to contradict the words of St. Paul. This is what St. Paul says:
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ,** that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law:** for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

This is what St. James says:
James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Knowing what transpired between them in Acts 21, makes me suspect that St. James was correcting what he thought was an error.

C. The reason they don’t contradict is because St. Paul is a theologian (Acts 22:3). He is speaking in specific detail. St. James is not. He is speaking in abstract terms. His is a manner of speaking.

St. Paul is absolutely correct. We are not justified by works. We are justified by God. That is Catholic Teaching.

St. James is correct also. We are justified by faith and works because only those whose faith is formed by works of love will be justified by God. Therefore, although the works don’t justify us, in a manner of speaking, we are justified by them because only those who do the works of the law by faith in Christ Jesus will be justified by God.

Sincerely,

De Maria