He didn't say, "faith alone"

[De_Maria]

If I am confused it is because you are confusing.

The matter being discussed is hard to understand. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be disputed by a large component of Christianity.

Yes, God justifies us. But, faith doesn’t justify?

Correct. Trent 6:
*and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. (Chapter 8).
*

Note the words in “bold”. “We are therefore said to be”. It is a “manner of speaking”. It is a sort of metaphor. We are not really justified by our faith or our works. Those who produce works of faith are justified by God.

Have you not read Romans 3:28? works don’t justify? Have you not read James 2:24? If faith or works don’t justify us then how come everyone isn’t saved? What separates us from those who are saved and those who aren’t? Well, faith and works. Faith and works are what justifies us. But both faith and works are the operation of God’s grace working in us.

No. Justification is God’s work. Lets look at the Catechism:
2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism.** It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us**. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and** that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.**

We do not justify ourselves by faith or works. God justifies those who do good works because of their faith in Christ.

Yes, prior to baptismal grace , neither faith or works justify us.

The process of justification begins before Baptism by the actual prevenient grace of God:

CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace;…Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.

In other words, the preparation for justification known as conversion, the turning towards God, is itself the beginning of justification:
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

2018 Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, and so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.

But, that is because we are not under grace but still under law.

We are always under grace. Before Baptism we are under “actual” grace. Afterwards, we are under “actual” and “sanctifying” grace.

No faith or works that we contribute under our own power prior to Christ’s transforming grace add to our justification.

The Church teaches that justification begins before Baptism:
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

For scripture says that all our works are like filthy rags. And there is not one who does what is right, not one. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Thus, no one could justify themselves before God by following the law under their own power.

Exactly what I’m saying. Our works don’t justify us. God justifies those who produce works of faith in obedience to Christ Jesus:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

But after grace we are given faith and love and being justified by faith that is working in love (Gal 5:6). For both faith and works are a gift of God’s grace, not from our own power.

1. As long as you understand that we are under grace when we accept the actual and prevenient grace of God, before Baptism which leads to repentance and Baptism.
2. And as long as you understand that we don’t justify ourselves, no matter what we do. God justifies those who produce works of love by faith in Christ Jesus.

In baptism we are dead to the law (Rom 7:16, Gal 2:19), having died with Christ in baptism (Rom 6:4).

Exactly! We are said to be “dead to the law” because we are resting from our works.

Anyone who dies in a contract is no longer bound by that contract. Thus, we are no longer under the curse of the old covenant laws which leads to death. Instead, we are bound by the new covenant law of grace unto life. We have been given newness of life through grace, not through observing the law.

Exactly what I’m saying. Those who observe the law will be justified by God. But the law does not justify anyone.

Again, you are being confusing. We are initially justified by having our sins forgiven at baptism and brought into Christ,

No. We are initially justified by God because of our faith in Christ Jesus. That is where the process of justification begins, at conversion which leads to repentance and abhorrence of sin.

Then, after studying to show ourselves approved, we approach the Church and request Baptism which is the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit which can only be accomplished by God.

and given the deposit of the Holy Spirit. And, we are declared just. But, this is the start of justification. For God brings to pass what he declares.

Certainly. God keeps His promises. Therefore, those who REPENT and are Baptized are given the gift of the Holy Spirit:
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Repentance or conversion, is the first step in justification.
Baptism is then sought and we are reborn as children of the Father.

Is that not a work? You just said that works don’t justify us. And, now you say that in order to be justified we must keep the commandments.

Correct. But the works don’t justify us. God justifies those who keep the Commandments. God does not justify those who do not keep the Commandments.

Remember RCIA. Those who are Baptized must conform to the Commandments. One must live according to the Commandments of God in order to be admitted to the Sacraments. That is a pre-requisite. Unrepentant sinners are not permitted to be Baptized. And if they fool the Pastor, they don’t fool God.

True. But doers of what law? Certainly not circumcision or works of the law for Paul says later on that we are justified by faith and not works of the law (ROm 3:28).

As the Church teaches. We are “said to be justified by faith” because without faith we can’t please God. But neither faith nor works actually justify. God justifies those who have faith in Him and obey His Son.

In baptism we are given an initial justification before God.

The Church teaches that justification begins at conversion.

And our justification grows as we mature in faith, hope, and love.

Agreed. Then we ask the Church for Baptism. And God perfectly justifies our souls and renews our spirits. In Baptism, we do not justify ourselves.

As justification is not simply a one time transaction as in a legal declaration as the Protestants believe. Rather, God declares us to be just in baptism, and we are given the righteousness of Christ, and then he makes his declaration come to pass actually in our lives

.

Agreed. But after Baptism, we must continue to work in accordance with our faith. And then we continue to be washed by God’s Spirit in all the Sacraments. Confession, Eucharist etc.

For just as God said ‘let there be light’ and then there was actually light, he says to us who are baptized you are righteous, and then he makes us righteous, not just legally, but actually. He infuses his grace into us so that we actually become more righteous. The more righteous we actually become, the more justified we are. We progressively become more like Christ if we cooperate with that grace. And, this is why it is a process.

Agreed. Two modes of justification working hand in hand. The mode of justification by faith and works between the Sacraments. The mode of justification by faith apart from works in the Sacraments wherein God washes our souls in accordance with His promises.

Eventually, we keep the law written on our hearts, not because of our own power, but because of God’s transforming grace infused into us. Thus, no one will be able to boast before God since we are saved by grace, from start to finish.

Amen!

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[someguy14]

Because he intended to prove St. Paul wrong:
A. St. James did believe that St. Paul was teaching falsely.

We must humble ourselves and accept The discernment from God.

If you read Acts 21, with discernment from God, by God’s will alone, you will understand that some of those jews that were zealous to believe were also zealous of the law Moses was given by God. Unfortunately, they misunderstood the teachings that were being preached unto them by the new testament prophets and in Acts 21, we have some new testament prophets cautioning(warning) one another that some of those jews were misunderstanding and going as far as accussing the new testament prophets of saying Moses was no longer needed and also accussing the new testament prophets of going against The law Moses presented from God.

The new testament prophets aren’t going against The law Moses recieved and presented, the same way Jesus says in Matthew 5:17. That was the same misunderstanding they were having with Jesus. The new testament prophets are aware of this and are telling one another to basically, be aware of that situation.

The new testament prophets are all in accord with the old testament prophets and that is where some jews were tripping up. James and Paul are both saying that good faith is necessary for believers and also good works and by that faith, good works will be produced.

Matthew 7: 15 thru 20

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Some jews had trouble understanding that Jesus was lessening the burden and not destroying the law given to Moses. To the upright and pure in heart, the ones that are abiding in the law. The law is against those doing wicked. This is what the new testament prophets are teaching and the situation that Jesus encountered. The new testament prophets are showing that Jesus is of every prophet, directly from God and that the jews should listen to Him.

God be magnified.

 

[someguy14]

2 Timothy 3:16 and 17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[De_Maria]

We must humble ourselves and accept The discernment from God.

If you read Acts 21, with discernment from God, by God’s will alone, you will understand that some of those jews that were zealous to believe were also zealous of the law Moses was given by God. Unfortunately, they misunderstood the teachings that were being preached unto them by the new testament prophets and in Acts 21, we have some new testament prophets cautioning(warning) one another that some of those jews were misunderstanding and going as far as accussing the new testament prophets of saying Moses was no longer needed and also accussing the new testament prophets of going against The law Moses presented from God.

Exactly! And St. James was one of them who at first misunderstood what St. Paul was teaching.

The new testament prophets aren’t going against The law Moses recieved and presented, the same way Jesus says in Matthew 5:17. That was the same misunderstanding they were having with Jesus. The new testament prophets are aware of this and are telling one another to basically, be aware of that situation.

I don’t know what you mean by New Testament prophets. I’m referring to the Apostles which wrote the Scriptures. And St. Peter confirms that many people were misunderstanding St. Paul. In fact, he, St. Peter, the Prince of the Apostles, says that some of the things which St. Paul says are hard to understand:
2 Peter 3:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

The new testament prophets are all in accord

By the grace of God. It is the Holy Spirit which ensured that they were in accord. Because, according to my reading of St. James and St. Paul, St. James thought he was correcting what St. Paul was teaching.

with the old testament prophets and that is where some jews were tripping up. James and Paul are both saying that good faith is necessary for believers and also good works and by that faith, good works will be produced.

True. But more than that. St. Paul is much more specific about justification. St. James is saying things in a manner of speaking. He is not being specific. Whereas, St. Paul is explaining things in true detail.

When St. James says, “we are justified by works not by faith only”. He is actually not being exact. Those who exercise their faith in good works are justified by God. Not by the works they produce.

St. Paul is exact. In Titus 3:5 he says:
Titus 3:5
King James Version (KJV)
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Faith is a righteous work. We are not justified by faith or any other righteous works. We are justified by God, in the washing of regeneration which occurs in the Sacraments. Not least of which is Baptism.

Matthew 7: 15 thru 20

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits . Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down , and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Some jews had trouble understanding that Jesus was lessening the burden and not destroying the law given to Moses. To the upright and pure in heart, the ones that are abiding in the law. The law is against those doing wicked. This is what the new testament prophets are teaching and the situation that Jesus encountered. The new testament prophets are showing that Jesus is of every prophet, directly from God and that the jews should listen to Him.

True. But in the Sacraments we are justified by faith apart from works. Before the Sacraments and after, we are justified by faith and works.

God be magnified.

Amen!

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

2 Timothy 3:16 and 17

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Absolutely true. But Scripture must be understood according to the Traditions of Christ. Christ did not write Scripture, He established a Church and commanded Her to teach His Traditions:
113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[someguy14]

Please leave all mankind and pray for the Holy Spirit to fill you. Sincerly, with a pure heart, give yourself to God, all of it.

Luke 11:17
But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

May God bless.

 

[someguy14]

Good faith and Good works go hand in hand.

The law and belief go hand in hand.

The misunderstanding by those that accussed Jesus of getting rid of the law given to Moses by God, were under attack by satan by their doubt, who caused confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

James 3:16

For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

We understand, that James and Paul wrote from inspiration of God and understood.
That all goodness comes from God, God alone. Therefore any good work, any good thought, can only come from God, for God is all good. Jesus legitimacy was proven when He mention’s; John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish , the same works that I do , bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

May God bless .

 

[De_Maria]

Please leave all mankind and pray for the Holy Spirit to fill you. Sincerly, with a pure heart, give yourself to God, all of it.

Luke 11:17
But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth.

May God bless.

And you as well,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Good faith and Good works go hand in hand.

The law and belief go hand in hand.

The misunderstanding by those that accussed Jesus of getting rid of the law given to Moses by God, were under attack by satan by their doubt, who caused confusion.

1 Corinthians 14:33

For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

James 3:16

For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

We understand, that James and Paul wrote from inspiration of God and understood.
That all goodness comes from God, God alone. Therefore any good work, any good thought, can only come from God, for God is all good. Jesus legitimacy was proven when He mention’s; John 5:36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish , the same works that I do , bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

All this is true. But the fact remains that we don’t justify ourselves. God justifies us.

When St. Paul said that we are justified by faith apart from works, he was describing the justification that occurs in the Sacraments. In the Sacraments, God justifies us. We rest of our works and accept His promises in a disposition of faith.

May God bless .

You as well.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[guywithquestion]

I am confused, is our faith centered around Paul? Or Jesus?

I believe the words of Jesus were, “For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only begotten Son, and that those believe in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

I am not saying that this completely invalidates everything Paul says, because Paul does agree that faith alone is important.

Romans 5:1: “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Romans 3:28: “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”

But how I see it is that, because we are saved by faith, we as Christians WANT to do works. The emphasis is works here. Good deeds is not required because our deeds cannot save us from sin.

The analogy that I like to bring up is in a relationship, is giving gifts to your boyfriend/girlfriend more important, or is actually loving your boyfriend/girlfriend important?

I dont believe that good deeds is a requirement to go to heaven, rather once you realize you go to heaven, you express your gratitude and hope to bring others to heaven by doing good deeds, so that when others see your good deeds, they to want to obtain that salvation in heaven.

 

[fisherman_carl]

I’m not going to try to respond to everything you said as that would be too time consuming.

The matter being discussed is hard to understand. Otherwise, it wouldn’t be disputed by a large component of Christianity.

True, but I was saying that the way in which you are explaining your point is confusing more so than talking about the subject matter, because you are making contradictory statements. You assert something positive and negative in the same sentence. I think I know what you are trying to say, but there are other ways to say it.

Correct. Trent 6:
and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification. (Chapter 8).

I agree with you that God is justifying us. He declares us to be just in Christ Jesus and then he makes that come to pass actually in our lives. Protestants believe that God declares them just and so they are justified whether they live a just life or not. Catholic teaching is that God can’t just declare someone who is unjust to be just without actually making them just. In other words, he declares us righteous in Christ at baptism and then he makes us that way actually, as we yield to his transforming grace, his divine life in us.

The text from Trent that you quote is talking about our initial justification in baptism. Prior to baptismal grace we have nothing that can justify us, whether faith or works. However, I disagree with you when you say that faith and works don’t justify. It is in fact faith and works is what God is using to justify us. Granted, the faith and works come from God’s grace and our cooperation with that grace. But faith and works are in fact the instrument that God is using to justify us.

No. Justification is God’s work. Lets look at the Catechism:

I agree, justification is God’s work. I never said otherwise. We do have to co-operate with that work though. We have free will to accept his grace or to reject it.

In other words, the preparation for justification known as conversion, the turning towards God, is itself the beginning of justification:

While you offer an interesting insight into the beginning of the justification process, or the work that God is doing in us, we don’t receive what is known as initial justification until baptism when our sins are washed away. The early Church Father’s taught that to wait 8 days for a newborn baby to be baptized was too long because baptism was that important. Some CF’s actually thought that babies could not go to heaven if they weren’t baptized. I agree that there is an initial conversion by which we first respond positively to God’s invitation, but conversion is also a life long process.

“Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life”

• CCC 1992

 

[fisherman_carl]

CONT’D
Exactly what I’m saying. Our works don’t justify us. God justifies those who produce works of faith in obedience to Christ Jesus:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I think I understand what you are saying, but that is not the way that I would say it. From a scriptural point of view, just using the language of scripture, if we look at James 2:24 it says, ‘you see how a man is justified by works, and not faith alone.’ So scripture says that our works do justify us. What I am saying, is that our works that we do on our own apart from grace do not justify us. However, works that are done in obedience to Christ by his grace, that are pleasing to God, do complete our faith (James 2:22) and our justification (James 2:24).

Repentance or conversion, is the first step in justification.
Baptism is then sought and we are reborn as children of the Father.

Sure, it’s the first step towards justification that we receive at baptism. As your quote mentioned before it is the “preparation for justification”.

.

 

[fisherman_carl]

CONT’D
No. We are initially justified by God because of our faith in Christ Jesus. That is where the process of justification begins, at conversion which leads to repentance and abhorrence of sin.

We are justified by faith AND baptism, not faith alone. Again it is faith that works in love that justifies, not faith alone. Baptism is an appeal to God for a clean conscience (1 PT 3:21)

Mk 16:16 - “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Baptism is required for justification/salvation.

One must live according to the Commandments of God in order to be admitted to the Sacraments. That is a pre-requisite. Unrepentant sinners are not permitted to be Baptized. And if they fool the Pastor, they don’t fool God.

So, I am curious, are you saying that if a person is not contrite they would have to be baptized again because they wouldn’t really be forgiven? Because there is only one baptism.

I would just clarify that we don’t have to be perfect before being baptized. The Sacrament of baptism is a sacrament because it is based on the promise of God, not on the worthiness of man. The water is an outward sign of actual grace that is conferred. The action that we don’t see is God’s action of total forgiveness of the person regardless of what state of sin they are in.

It does not depend on the worthiness of the person baptizing, nor of the person being baptized, because none of us are worthy. It depends on the promise of God. Yes, we need to repent, but repentance is not completely possible until after we have received the Holy Spirit. And, this occurs with baptism (CCC 1215). Prior to receiving baptismal grace and the Holy Spirit we can not conform ourselves to the Commandments of God as we should. Our part in baptism is to simply recognize we are sinners and be sorry for our sins and ask for forgiveness (CCC 1263). Prior to baptism we do not have the grace to really transform our lives. For, if we could perfectly follow the laws of God on our own prior to baptism, then we would not need to be baptized. No one who is already clean needs to take a bath. You don’t have to be perfect in order to be baptized. We recognize our need for God and desire to be right with him.

As you have said, that it is by ‘actual’ grace that we are moved towards baptism which confers ‘sanctifying’ grace. See below.

CCC 1215 "This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”[7] "

CCC 1263 "By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.[65] In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God. "

Baptism is the beginning of justification:
"Baptism marks the beginning of justification by forgiving all personal and original sin as well as communicating sanctifying grace. Through the grace of the Holy Spirit, a person receives supernatural disposition to live and act with God’s call. "
source: saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

Faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism:
“One might ask that if faith, hope and charity are theological virtues imputed by grace, how could a person be moved to conversion to Christianity or experience faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism. It should be emphasized that the Holy Spirit leads a person to Christianity through an act of actual grace. In addition, faith, hope and charity can exist in the natural state of man prior to baptism. However, the motive for natural charity is often misplaced. Works of natural goodness found among the unbelieving person is often for love of mankind rather than God. Natural faith can aspire and lead one to God through the work of the Spirit, but baptism is needed to bring sanctifying grace to the soul to purify it and impute supernatural faith, hope and charity. The Catechism notes that “the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop…For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. (CCC 1253).””
source: saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html
.

 

[fisherman_carl]

They are speaking of the same works. In my opinion, it is a testament to the Holy Spirit protecting them from error that St. James did not contradict St. Paul. Because he intended to prove St. Paul wrong::

I also wanted to address this point. The works that James is talking about in James 2:24 and what Paul is talking about in Rom 3:28 are NOT the same works. I’ve never heard any Catholic apologist say that. Go get yourself an Ignatius Catholic Study Bible and turn to the book of James and read the full page description of "faith and works’. There you will see they are talking about 2 different kinds of works - ‘works of Law’ and ‘works of Mercy’.

1. St. James did believe that St. Paul was teaching falsely.

That is your opinion, one that I have never heard, nor would I subscribe to. Most Catholic apologists that I have heard generally ascribe to the opinion that James was writing in response to some Christians who had misinterpreted Paul in Romans. They thought Paul was preaching ‘faith alone’ and so James was writing in response to these Christians and clarifying that Paul wasn’t saying faith apart from obedience.

“Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles”

• Rom 1:5 (see also Rom 16:26)

 

[fisherman_carl]

"FAITH First, when Paul speaks of justifying faith in Rom 3:28, he is talking about the faith of the convert that leads to Baptism. In other words, the apostle is making a general statement about how man is brought from sin to salvation. This process begins with faith and leads the believer to Baptism, which Paul teaches is the sacrament of our justification in Christ (1 Cor 6:11; Gal 3:25-27; Tit 3:5-7). James, on the other hand, is dealing with a much different situation. He is talking, not about the faith of the convert, but about the faith of the professing Christian. He is making a general statement about those who already “hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jas 2:1). The point, then, is that Paul and James discuss the role of justifying faith in two different contexts, namely, before and after the believer is incorporated into Christ.

WORKS Second, it is important to notice that Paul, when he denies justification by works in Rom 3:28, is speaking very specifically about works of the Mosaic Law. His point is that no one can earn or merit the free gift of grace by obedience to the Torah. Whether one observes its moral commandments, such as those of the Decalogue, or its ritual and ceremonial obligations, such as circumcision, dietary laws, or Sabbath observance, none of these works - apart from the grace of Christ - can bring about the justification of the sinner. There is no reason to think that James would disagree with this. After all, when James affirms justification by works, he is talking, not about works of the Mosaic Law performed apart from grace, but about works of mercy performed by those who are already established in grace (Jas 1:27; 2:15-16). Again, on the strength of human nature, while James affirms the value of Christian works, performed by the grace and power supplied by Jesus Christ."

• “Faith and Works”, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Pg 443

“James is correcting those who took Paul out of context and minimized the importance of works as a proper and necessary expression of faith in the Christian life.”

• “Faith and Works”, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Pg 443

 

[De_Maria]

I’m not going to try to respond to everything you said as that would be too time consuming.

True, but I was saying that the way in which you are explaining your point is confusing more so than talking about the subject matter, because you are making contradictory statements. You assert something positive and negative in the same sentence. I think I know what you are trying to say, but there are other ways to say it.

Let’s explore those other ways.

I agree with you that God is justifying us. He declares us to be just in Christ Jesus and then he makes that come to pass actually in our lives. Protestants believe that God declares them just and so they are justified whether they live a just life or not. Catholic teaching is that God can’t just declare someone who is unjust to be just without actually making them just. In other words, he declares us righteous in Christ at baptism and then he makes us that way actually, as we yield to his transforming grace, his divine life in us.

The way I understand Catholic Teaching. We yield to His transforming grace BEFORE Baptism. After we yield and begin to seek His goodness, we ask to be Baptized. He then transforms us into His children by pouring His Divine Life in us.

Unless we first repent and convert according to His actual grace, He will not pour His sanctifying grace into us.

The text from Trent that you quote is talking about our initial justification in baptism.

Let’s examine that a bit closer. Trent says:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace;

Note that there is as yet, no mention of Baptism. Let’s break it down.

It is furthermore declared…

That sounds as though the Church is making a strong statement.

…that in adults, the beginning of justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God… without any merits on their part,…

The predisposing grace of God is not the same as the sanctifying grace poured in us in Baptism. It is the “prevenient grace” which precedes any merit on our part.

Prior to baptismal grace we have nothing that can justify us, whether faith or works.

You are confusing two principles. Faith or works never justify us. Neither before nor after Baptism.

BUT no one who has neither faith nor works will ever be justified by God.
AND only those who have expressed their faith in doing good works will ever be justified by God IN BAPTISM.

This is very easy to see in the RCIA. First a man who converts must undergo RCIA. During which he learns to live according to the Commandments. After having successfully passed this RITE. Then he is judged worthy of receiving the Baptismal grace. Not before.

However, I disagree with you when you say that faith and works don’t justify.

They don’t. Justification is God’s work.

Faith and works don’t justify. But no one who does not have faith in God and exercise that faith in good works, will ever be justified by God.

It is in fact faith and works is what God is using to justify us.

I don’t know what God uses to justify us. If that is correct, then you need to show me from Tradition and/or Scripture.

However, Scripture and Tradition tell us that only those who have first obeyed God will be justified and eventually saved.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

cont’d

Granted, the faith and works come from God’s grace and our cooperation with that grace. But faith and works are in fact the instrument that God is using to justify us.

Again, if they are the instrument of our justification, that is not what I have read. The instrumental cause of the most perfect mode of justification is “Baptism” according to Trent:
the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, (Chapter VII)

Faith and works are called the preparation for Baptism:
CHAPTER VI
THE MANNER OF PREPARATION

Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ’s sake;** and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] **finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God.

I agree, justification is God’s work. I never said otherwise. We do have to co-operate with that work though. We have free will to accept his grace or to reject it.

Exactly correct.

While you offer an interesting insight into the beginning of the justification process, or the work that God is doing in us, we don’t receive what is known as initial justification until baptism when our sins are washed away.

On the contrary, the Church declares that justification begins with the receiving of the prevenient grace of God, at conversion.

The early Church Father’s taught that to wait 8 days for a newborn baby to be baptized was too long because baptism was that important. Some CF’s actually thought that babies could not go to heaven if they weren’t baptized. I agree that there is an initial conversion by which we first respond positively to God’s invitation, but conversion is also a life long process.

1. Infant baptism is another subject. We are talking about the justification of the adult. See Trent6 chapter V.
2. I agree that conversion is a lifelong process. So is justification. That is why we must constantly prepare for justification by faith and works. And why we frequently receive the Sacraments in a proper disposition of faith, resting from our works, relying completely on God’s promises to wash away our sins with His Sanctifying grace.

“Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life”

• CCC 1992

That is true. Keeping in mind that:
1989 **The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” **Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I also wanted to address this point. The works that James is talking about in James 2:24 and what Paul is talking about in Rom 3:28 are NOT the same works. I’ve never heard any Catholic apologist say that. Go get yourself an Ignatius Catholic Study Bible and turn to the book of James and read the full page description of "faith and works’. There you will see they are talking about 2 different kinds of works - ‘works of Law’ and ‘works of Mercy’.

1. Catholic apologists are not infallible.
2. Neither of them make any distinctions in the type of works they are talking about.
3. If you read St. Paul’s other comments, he says EXPLICITLY:
   Titus 3:5
   Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Which of the works of the law or the works of mercy is NOT a righteous work?

That is your opinion, one that I have never heard, nor would I subscribe to. Most Catholic apologists that I have heard generally ascribe to the opinion that James was writing in response to some Christians who had misinterpreted Paul in Romans. They thought Paul was preaching ‘faith alone’ and so James was writing in response to these Christians and clarifying that Paul wasn’t saying faith apart from obedience.

They may be correct. I’m going by the fact that St. James and the elders confronted St. Paul in Acts 21:
17And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

18And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

I also go by the fact that ST. PETER said that St. Paul’s teachings were:
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

“Through him we have received the grace of apostleship, to bring about the obedience of faith, for the sake of his name, among all the Gentiles”

• Rom 1:5 (see also Rom 16:26)

True. But St. Paul is teaching two concepts of justification which appear contradictory at first glance.

First he teaches:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God,** but the doers of the law shall be justified.**

Then he teaches:
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Luther read the second and came to the conclusion that the first was not necessary. In other words, he came to the conclusion that works were not necessary for one to be justified. Proving St. Peter correct.

Now St. James, whether he is correcting the understanding of some or the teaching of St. Paul, did not actually, IN MY OPINION, express himself better than St. Paul.

Of the two, in fact, of all the Apostles, St. Paul is the only one who even touched upon the reality of justification.

1. That it is effected by God ALONE.
2. That works do not bring it about, but only the grace of God which is given to those who obey God.
3. That faith itself does not bring it about, but without faith, no one can please God and thus be justified.

St. Paul understands exactly how God brings about justification.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

"FAITH First, when Paul speaks of justifying faith in Rom 3:28, he is talking about the faith of the convert that leads to Baptism.

Agreed.

In other words, the apostle is making a general statement about how man is brought from sin to salvation. This process begins with faith and leads the believer to Baptism,

Agreed. But more. Look at the promises.

1. We obey God and submit to Baptism because He promised to give us a gift:
   Acts 2:38
   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
2. Abraham obeyed God because of God’s promise to him.
   Romans 4:
   16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

**which Paul teaches is the sacrament of our justification in Christ (1 Cor 6:11; Gal 3:25-27; Tit 3:5-7). **

Agreed. Please Tit 3:5 in detail.

James, on the other hand, is dealing with a much different situation. He is talking, not about the faith of the convert, but about the faith of the professing Christian. He is making a general statement about those who already “hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Jas 2:1). The point, then, is that Paul and James discuss the role of justifying faith in two different contexts, namely, before and after the believer is incorporated into Christ.

1. They are both talking about justifying faith. Therefore, it doesn’t matter whether is is a new convert or a practicing Christian. Both St. Paul and St. James assume an ongoing conversion an ongoing justification.
2. Of the two, St. Paul is more specific. Recognizing first, that only those who "do the works of the law will be justified (Romans 2:13). And second, that they will be justified by God, not by their works (Romans 3:28).
3. Whereas St. James merely recognizes that works are necessary, but leaves the impression that faith and works actually wash the sins from our soul, as though we justify ourselves.
4. Both recognize the necessity of faith and works. But St. Paul is more accurate in the actual detail of justification, which is God’s work upon those who obey Him.

WORKS Second, it is important to notice that Paul, when he denies justification by works in Rom 3:28, is speaking very specifically about works of the Mosaic Law.

The Commandments are a chief part of the Mosaic Law.

His point is that no one can earn or merit the free gift of grace by obedience to the Torah. Whether one observes its moral commandments, such as those of the Decalogue, or its ritual and ceremonial obligations, such as circumcision, dietary laws, or Sabbath observance, none of these works - apart from the grace of Christ - can bring about the justification of the sinner.

Agreed.

There is no reason to think that James would disagree with this. After all, when James affirms justification by works, he is talking, not about works of the Mosaic Law performed apart from grace, but about works of mercy performed by those who are already established in grace (Jas 1:27; 2:15-16).

1. All the works of mercy are in accordance with the Mosaic Law.
2. Anyone who violates the Commandment to love neighbor, violates the works of mercy.
3. Both the works of mercy and the works required by the Mosaic Law fit under the heading of “righteous works”. See Titus 3:5.

Again, on the strength of human nature, while James affirms the value of Christian works, performed by the grace and power supplied by Jesus Christ."

• “Faith and Works”, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Pg 443

“James is correcting those who took Paul out of context and minimized the importance of works as a proper and necessary expression of faith in the Christian life.”

• “Faith and Works”, Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, Pg 443

Now, look up the Sacraments in the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible and tell me how we bring them about? Are they our work or God’s works?

Sincerely,

De Maria