He didn't say, "faith alone"

[bmonk]

I must begin by admitting that I don’t have time to read the thread completely and understand every post–forgive me if I bring up issues that have been discussed.

However, most of the thread seems to focus on faith and works, not sacraments.

I know some Protestants that see the sacraments as “works”–particularly as works of magic that Catholics see as things that “save” us.

But the whole point of baptism or the Eucharist is that we cannot do it ourselves–it has to be a work of God, or it’s pointless. It’s only through faith that it makes any sense.

And the sacraments have to be seen in (at least!) two ways:

First, they are God’s work of grace on us–a free gift that requires faith to accept.

Second (and sometimes a distant second), they are our response to God’s gift, our acceptance and “Amen!” Again, this requires faith, but can look like a human work.

 

[De_Maria]

I think I understand what you are saying, but that is not the way that I would say it. From a scriptural point of view, just using the language of scripture, if we look at James 2:24 it says, ‘you see how a man is justified by works, and not faith alone.’

That is true. But we study Scripture from the heart of the Church or according to the Tradition of the Church:
113 2. Read the Scripture within “the living Tradition of the whole Church”. According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church’s heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God’s Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church").

And the Fathers of the Church who spoke at Trent say that the saying, “justified by faith and works” is only a manner of speaking:
CHAPTER VIII
HOW THE GRATUITOUS JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER BY FAITH IS TO BE UNDERSTOOD

But when the Apostle says that man is justified by faith and freely,[44]** these words are to be understood in that sense in which the uninterrupted unanimity of the Catholic Church **has held and expressed them, namely, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God[45] and to come to the fellowship of His sons; and we are therefore said to be justified gratuitously, because none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification.

CHAPTER IX
AGAINST THE VAIN CONFIDENCE OF HERETICS

But though it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted nor ever have been remitted except gratuitously by divine mercy for Christ’s sake, …

For, if by grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the Apostle says, grace is no more grace.[46]

So, it is not wrong to say we are justified by faith and works because only those who have faith and exercise that faith in good works will be given the grace of justification by God.

So scripture says that our works do justify us. What I am saying, is that our works that we do on our own apart from grace do not justify us. However, works that are done in obedience to Christ by his grace, that are pleasing to God, do complete our faith (James 2:22) and our justification (James 2:24).

That is correct, in a manner of speaking, as explained by the Council of Trent.

Sure, it’s the first step towards justification that we receive at baptism. As your quote mentioned before it is the “preparation for justification”.

It is a preparation for the perfect work of God which is effected in Baptism. But it is itself the beginning of justification, as Trent clearly teaches. And so does the Catechism.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

I must begin by admitting that I don’t have time to read the thread completely and understand every post–forgive me if I bring up issues that have been discussed.

However, most of the thread seems to focus on faith and works, not sacraments.

I know some Protestants that see the sacraments as “works”–particularly as works of magic that Catholics see as things that “save” us.

But the whole point of baptism or the Eucharist is that we cannot do it ourselves–it has to be a work of God, or it’s pointless. It’s only through faith that it makes any sense.

And the sacraments have to be seen in (at least!) two ways:

First, they are God’s work of grace on us–a free gift that requires faith to accept.

Second (and sometimes a distant second), they are our response to God’s gift, our acceptance and “Amen!” Again, this requires faith, but can look like a human work.

I believe you and I agree perfectly.

Thanks.

 

[De_Maria]

We are justified by faith AND baptism, not faith alone.

I never said we were justified by faith alone, so you’ll have to explain why you made that statement.

Again it is faith that works in love that justifies, not faith alone. Baptism is an appeal to God for a clean conscience (1 PT 3:21)

As I understand St. Paul’s teaching, he is not saying faith “alone”, but faith apart from works. In other words, during the Sacraments, we rest of our works and rely upon the promises of God to effect what He promised to the one who believes.

Mk 16:16 - “He who believes AND is baptized will be saved.” Baptism is required for justification/salvation.

True. But justification begins BEFORE Baptism. The Council of Trent made this clear because many Protestants claimed then and claim today, that justification begins with Baptism.

CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called;…

So, I am curious, are you saying that if a person is not contrite they would have to be baptized again because they wouldn’t really be forgiven?

I don’t know where you’re coming up with this stuff. When did I even suggest such a thing which even the Protestants don’t believe?

Only those who repent will be justified by God. Only those who are contrite will be forgiven.

Because there is only one baptism.

But there are seven Sacraments and we are justified in all of them. Justification is a life long process.

I would just clarify that we don’t have to be perfect before being baptized.

Who implied that we did?

The Sacrament of baptism is a sacrament because it is based on the promise of God,

My point exactly.

not on the worthiness of man.

No one is worthy. That is Catholic Teaching.

The water is an outward sign of actual grace that is conferred. The action that we don’t see is God’s action of total forgiveness of the person regardless of what state of sin they are in.

Hm? Unless I misunderstand what you are saying, I don’t think that is correct. I believe it is Catholic Teaching that one who is perfectly contrite will be forgiven, even if he isn’t Baptized. That is the basis of the doctrine of “Baptism of desire”.

It does not depend on the worthiness of the person baptizing, nor of the person being baptized, because none of us are worthy.

Agreed. see above.

It depends on the promise of God.

That goes directly to the point I’ve been making.

Yes, we need to repent, but repentance is not completely possible until after we have received the Holy Spirit.

Whether it is completely possible afterwards is an open question.

And, this occurs with baptism (CCC 1215).

Yes. We receive the Holy Spirit with Baptism.

Prior to receiving baptismal grace and the Holy Spirit we can not conform ourselves to the Commandments of God as we should.

Not true. Two examples of such from Scripture are Abraham and Cornelius.

Our part in baptism is to simply recognize we are sinners and be sorry for our sins and ask for forgiveness (CCC 1263).

Exactly what I’m saying.

Prior to baptism we do not have the grace to really transform our lives.

Abraham did so in the OT. Cornelius did so in the New. Abraham was never baptized. Cornelius was baptized after he was already recognized by God as a righteous man.

For, if we could perfectly follow the laws of God on our own prior to baptism, then we would not need to be baptized.

Baptism is not a matter of need. It is a matter of gift.

Baptism gives us a participation in the life of God, which we would not otherwise have unless we had undergone the Final Judgment and been acquitted by God.

No one who is already clean needs to take a bath. You don’t have to be perfect in order to be baptized. We recognize our need for God and desire to be right with him.

True. But those who are dirty desire to be clean. In preparation for our bath, we must first disrobe, take off the old man, then we are washed clean and born a new man with Christ.

As you have said, that it is by ‘actual’ grace that we are moved towards baptism which confers ‘sanctifying’ grace. See below.

CCC 1215 "This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”[7] "

Amen. I believe that is what I have been saying. We don’t wash ourselves. But if we don’t believe in the Sacrament, neither will we be washed by God.

CCC 1263 "By Baptism all sins are forgiven, original sin and all personal sins, as well as all punishment for sin.[65] In those who have been reborn nothing remains that would impede their entry into the Kingdom of God, neither Adam’s sin, nor personal sin, nor the consequences of sin, the gravest of which is separation from God. "

Agreed. I believe that is part of what I have been saying.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

Baptism is the beginning of justification:
"Baptism marks the beginning of justification by forgiving all personal and original sin as well as communicating sanctifying grace. Through the grace of the Holy Spirit, a person receives supernatural disposition to live and act with God’s call. "
source: saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html

With all due respect to whomever wrote this document. They are contradicting the teaching of the Church which says:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called;

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

Faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism:
"One might ask that if faith, hope and charity are theological virtues imputed by grace, how could a person be moved to conversion to Christianity or experience faith, hope and charity prior to Baptism. It should be emphasized that the Holy Spirit leads a person to Christianity through an act of actual grace.

Exactly!

In addition, faith, hope and charity can exist in the natural state of man prior to baptism.

That explains Abraham and all the Patriarchs of the OT. None of them were baptized.

However, the motive for natural charity is often misplaced. Works of natural goodness found among the unbelieving person is often for love of mankind rather than God. Natural faith can aspire and lead one to God through the work of the Spirit, but baptism is needed to bring sanctifying grace to the soul to purify it and impute supernatural faith, hope and charity. The Catechism notes that “the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop…For all the baptized, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism. (CCC 1253).”"

With all this I agree and I have said nothing to dispute any of it.

source: saintaquinas.com/Justification_by_Grace.html
.

The idea stated in this paper, that justification begins at Baptism, is false and contradicts the Catholic Church. I think, because they are Christian, they are neglecting that which occurred before the Sacrament of Baptism was introduced and which was NOT, I repeat was NOT cancelled by Jesus Christ. Because it is Jesus Christ who said:
Matthew 19:17
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

The technical term for this process is “justitia dei extra nos”:
…By this, however, we do not assert that the “justitia Dei extra nos” is of no importance in the process of justification. For, even if it is not the formal cause of justification (causa formalis), it is nevertheless its true exemplar (causa exemplaris), inasmuch as the soul receives a sanctity in imitation of God’s own holiness…
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

This is, in fact, the only process which is open to the Jews and non-Christians and others, which the Church does not condemn but does not judge saved either. They will be judged according to their adherence to the commandments of God written in their hearts, at the final judgment.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fisherman_carl]

The way I understand Catholic Teaching. We yield to His transforming grace BEFORE Baptism. After we yield and begin to seek His goodness, we ask to be Baptized. He then transforms us into His children by pouring His Divine Life in us.

Unless we first repent and convert according to His actual grace, He will not pour His sanctifying grace into us.

Ok.

Let’s examine that a bit closer. Trent says:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace;

Note that there is as yet, no mention of Baptism. Let’s break it down.

It is furthermore declared…

That sounds as though the Church is making a strong statement.

…that in adults, the beginning of justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God… without any merits on their part,…

The predisposing grace of God is not the same as the sanctifying grace poured in us in Baptism. It is the “prevenient grace” which precedes any merit on our part.

I think there is an important point to clarify here. What is Justification? The council of Trent defines Justification as:

“In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.”

• Ch IV, Council of Trent on Justification

And then Trent goes on to say:

"This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]"

So Trent is saying that Justification occurs when one is translated from a child of Adam to a son of God. And, that can not occur until we have been regenerated through water and the Holy Spirit. And, as we all know this occurs at baptism. Jn 3:5.

Ok, then Trent goes on to say that part that you have been quoting me:

"CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ,…"

This is not saying that we are justified prior to baptism. It is only making a general statement about the nature of grace and justification. It is only saying that are justification comes from grace. Notice the title says ‘preparation for justification’. Preparation implies one has not actually done the action yet, but one is getting ready to do the action or receive the action. Justification does not actually occur until baptism as we have seen above in Ch IV of Trent.

You are the one that is using the terminology of saying that the beginning of justification occurs before baptism. That really depends on how you define what justification is and it’s beginning. To me justification means the forgiveness of sins and the receiving of the Holy Spirit and our becoming sons of God that occurs at baptism. God may be moving me to justification before I am baptized through ‘actual’ grace. But, I am not actually justified until the ‘sacrament of faith’ (baptism). And, as far as I am aware actual grace does not transform us. It is sanctifying grace that transforms. Actual grace moves us to God and to faith and to seek baptism. Maybe that’s what you mean by the ‘beginning of justification before baptism’.

“Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith.”

• CCC 1992

You are confusing two principles. Faith or works never justify us. Neither before nor after Baptism.

Again, I agree that they do not justify us apart from grace. But works done in grace increase our justification. Faith is the instrument of our justification, just like Abraham was justified by faith, but it wasn’t a faith that was alone, but a faith that was obedient.

“they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified,”
Trent, ch VI

BUT no one who has neither faith nor works will ever be justified by God.
AND .only those who have expressed their faith in doing good works will ever be justified by God IN BAPTISM

Babies are justified by God in baptism and have not done any faith or works. Thus to say that “only those who have expressed their faith in doing good works will ever be justified by God IN BAPTISM” is not accurate. God justifies the sinner at baptism completely. In fact the church teaches that if someone were to die immediately after baptism they would go straight to heaven. They wouldn’t even have to stop in purgatory. That is how great one is justified at baptism.

Yet one is still justified further, after baptism, through works done in grace. (Trent VI). “He that is just, let him be justified still.” (Rev 22:11)

 

[De_Maria]

Ok.

I think there is an important point to clarify here.

I agree.

What is Justification? The council of Trent defines Justification as:

“In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.”

• Ch IV, Council of Trent on Justification

And then Trent goes on to say:

"This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]"

So Trent is saying that Justification occurs when one is translated from a child of Adam to a son of God. And, that can not occur until we have been regenerated through water and the Holy Spirit. And, as we all know this occurs at baptism. Jn 3:5.

Agreed.

Ok, then Trent goes on to say that part that you have been quoting me:

"CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ,…"

This is not saying that we are justified prior to baptism.

I didn’t say it did. It says that, in adults, justification “begins” at the moment they received the predisposing grace of God.

It is only making a general statement about the nature of grace and justification.

On the contrary, look at how that statement begins. The Church is making an adamant declaration, saying it is furthermore declared. So, it is not a general statement. The Church is making it perfectly clear that one can not deny when justification begins.

It is only saying that are justification comes from grace. Notice the title says ‘preparation for justification’. Preparation implies one has not actually done the action yet, but one is getting ready to do the action or receive the action. Justification does not actually occur until baptism as we have seen above in Ch IV of Trent.

Instead of speculating. Let us read further.

*It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification **must proceed *from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ,

First the Church adamantly declares that the beginning of justification MUST proceed from the first grace of God.

that is, from His vocation,

From His vocation. Vocation means “call”.

whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace;

That seems pretty clear to me, that the Church is saying that justification begins the moment one is called by God to conversion.

You are the one that is using the terminology of saying that the beginning of justification occurs before baptism.

I believe that is the message of the Church. The CCC says the same thing.

That really depends on how you define what justification is and it’s beginning.

You read the definition.

To me justification means the forgiveness of sins and the receiving of the Holy Spirit and our becoming sons of God that occurs at baptism.

All of that occurs at Baptism, but it begins at the Call of God to conversion.

God may be moving me to justification before I am baptized through ‘actual’ grace.

Correct.

But, I am not actually justified until the ‘sacrament of faith’ (baptism).

Correct.

CONT’D

 

[De_Maria]

CONT’D

And, as far as I am aware actual grace does not transform us.

Yes, I believe it does transform us. That is why so many Protestants associate conversion with being born again. We are born again in Baptism. But many believe they are born again before they are baptized because of the powerful experience they receive when they receive the Call to conversion.

It is sanctifying grace that transforms.

Invisibly, in the soul, according to the work of God.

Actual grace moves us to God and to faith and to seek baptism. Maybe that’s what you mean by the ‘beginning of justification before baptism’.

That’s what the Church means.

“Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith.”

• CCC 1992

Agreed. But the Church teaches that the very same justification begins when God calls a man to conversion.

Again, I agree that they do not justify us apart from grace. But works done in grace increase our justification. Faith is the instrument of our justification, just like Abraham was justified by faith, but it wasn’t a faith that was alone, but a faith that was obedient.

Again, the Church teaches that the instrument of justification. Although some Catholic scholars have postulated that “faith is also an instrument”, the Church has not said so.

The Church however, calls faith the root and foundation of justification. Which is true. Unless one has faith, one will not be justified.

“they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified,”
Trent, ch VI

That is true. But they are justified by God. Not by their faith and works.

Babies are justified by God in baptism and have not done any faith or works.

Correctomundo.

Thus to say that “only those who have expressed their faith in doing good works will ever be justified by God IN BAPTISM” is not accurate

.

I did emphasize that we are talking about the justification of adults, did I not. If I didn’t say it to you, I said it to someone else.

God justifies the sinner at baptism completely.

Perfectly. But justification begins before baptism.

In fact the church teaches that if someone were to die immediately after baptism they would go straight to heaven. They wouldn’t even have to stop in purgatory. That is how great one is justified at baptism.

Agreed.

Yet one is still justified further, after baptism, through works done in grace. (Trent VI). “He that is just, let him be justified still.” (Rev 22:11)

Agreed.

Now, think about Cornelius (acts 10). He was called a righteous man before he was baptized. Jesus had already ascended to the Father.

Cornelius’ justification (and his cohort) had begun way before he was baptized. But St. Peter declared that water could not be withheld so that he would become a child of God in Baptism.

Protestants claim that Cornelius was baptized of the Holy Spirit before Baptism. But Scripture doesn’t say that. It is evident to me, that God simply gave St. Peter a sign, that He wanted St. Cornelius and his cohort to be Baptized that they might be translated from children of Adam to children of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Ok.

I think there is an important point to clarify here.

Yes. I agree. In fact, I think it is so important, I would like to dedicate this message specifically to arriving at a proper understanding of what the Council of Trent meant by “justification”.

What is Justification? The council of Trent defines Justification as:

“In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.”

• Ch IV, Council of Trent on Justification

And then Trent goes on to say:

"This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]"

So Trent is saying that Justification occurs when one is translated from a child of Adam to a son of God. And, that can not occur until we have been regenerated through water and the Holy Spirit. And, as we all know this occurs at baptism. Jn 3:5.

Ok, then Trent goes on to say that part that you have been quoting me:

Lets stop here for a second. Now, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Church teaches that “justification only occurs at Baptism”. Because, according to you, the Church teaches that justification is only the translation of the son of Adam to the Son of God.

Now, if that is true, then, as they say, it proves too much. Because Trent goes on to say:
*CHAPTER X
THE INCREASE OF THE JUSTIFICATION RECEIVED

Having, therefore, been thus justified and made the friends and domestics of God,[49] advancing from virtue to virtue,[50] they are renewed, as the Apostle says, day by day,[51] that is, mortifying the members[52] of their flesh, and presenting them as instruments of justice unto sanctification,[53] they, through the observance of the commandments of God and of the Church, faith cooperating with good works, increase in that justice received through the grace of Christ and are further justified, as it is written:
He that is just, let him be justified still;[54] and, Be not afraid to be justified even to death;[55] and again, Do you see that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only?[56]

This increase of justice holy Church asks for when she prays:
“Give unto us, O Lord, an increase of faith, hope and charity.”[57]*

So, if justification only occurs at Baptism, then we could be not continue to be justified since Baptism is not repeatable.

But since you agree with me that justification is a lifelong process, then justification must also occur outside of Baptism.

That means that it can begin before and continue after Baptism.

And this, I believe is the true teaching of Trent. Although, since the promulgation of the Gospel, the adoption of the sons of God occurs at Baptism, this does not mean that the other sort of justification,which is the perfection of the man of God by the detestation of sins, the exercise of the virtues and by the seeking of God in faith can not begin before and continue after Baptism.

I hope that makes sense.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fisherman_carl]

top here for a second. Now, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Church teaches that “justification only occurs at Baptism”.

Nope. That’s not what I said. The rest of what you wrote assumes that is what I said.

It seems pretty clear that the Church teaches justification occurs at baptism. And, it occurs at the Sacrament of Confession. Any other increase of righteousness flows from those initial justification through the sacraments, because apart from sanctifying grace nothing we do can increase our righteousness. But after we have been justified through the sacraments our righteousness can increase through works done in grace.

"This** translation** however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]"

Seems pretty clear to me. It is saying that it can not be effected, except by what takes place in baptism or by baptism of desire.

“but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

• 1 Cor 6:11

 

[De_Maria]

Nope. That’s not what I said. The rest of what you wrote assumes that is what I said.

It seems pretty clear that the Church teaches justification occurs at baptism.

But begins before Baptism.

And, it occurs at the Sacrament of Confession.

We are not translated from children of Adam to children of God at Confession. I agree that justification occurs here. But not as you claimed the Church defined.

Any other increase of righteousness flows from those initial justification through the sacraments, because apart from sanctifying grace nothing we do can increase our righteousness.

Then explain the increase in justification in Cornelius? You’ve conveniently left him out of this entire conversation.

But after we have been justified through the sacraments our righteousness can increase through works done in grace.

Because God justifies those who do the works of the Law (Rom 2:13).

"This** translation** however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]"

Seems pretty clear to me. It is saying that it can not be effected, except by what takes place in baptism or by baptism of desire.

What isn’t clear is the translation which you must now explain occurs through Confession. Please explain how we are born again in Confession.

“but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.”

• 1 Cor 6:11

Amen! That happens once, in Baptism. How are we born again in Confession? Where does Catholic Teaching say such a thing.

And, to return to the topic of this conversation. It is in the Sacraments that we rest of our works and are justified by God. In Baptism we are translated. In the other Sacraments, our sins are washed away and we are perfected in grace.

Before and after the Sacraments, we continue to be justified ACCORDING to our faith and works by the actual (before and after the Sacraments.) and sanctifying grace (after the Sacraments) of God.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fisherman_carl]

But begins before Baptism.
We are not translated from children of Adam to children of God at Confession. I agree that justification occurs here. But not as you claimed the Church defined.

The church defined the justification that occurs at baptism as a translation, not me. As far as the sacrament of confession I did not say that is what occurs there.

Then explain the increase in justification in Cornelius? You’ve conveniently left him out of this entire conversation.

I never said you couldn’t be justified apart from baptism. I also mentioned ‘baptism by desire’ as the church teaches. It’s just that baptism is the normal means. What assurance of justification can we have apart from baptism? None that I know of. It was still necessary for Cornelius to be baptized. The fact that he spoke in tongues proved to Peter that God had accepted the gentiles. It wasn’t that God was trying to minimize the necessity for baptism. He was only showing Peter that he accepted the gentiles. In fact Peter still found it necessary to baptize him, even after he had received the Holy Spirit.

"“Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the holy Spirit even as we have?” He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. " (Acts 10:47-48)

What isn’t clear is the translation which you must now explain occurs through Confession. Please explain how we are born again in Confession.

I don’t have to. I never said that. Again, you are trying to put words in my mouth.

And, to return to the topic of this conversation. It is in the Sacraments that we… are justified by God. In Baptism we are translated. In the other Sacraments, our sins are washed away and we are perfected in grace.

Isn’t that what I’ve been saying all along?

Before and after the Sacraments, we continue to be justified ACCORDING to our faith and works by the actual (before and after the Sacraments.) and sanctifying grace (after the Sacraments) of God.

I would agree with most of that except say that before the sacraments our works do not justify us. It is the sacrament that justifies us. We can not earn justification. It is a gift of God that flows from Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. We receive the righteousness of Christ. After which we can increase in our righteousness by works done in supernatural faith, hope and love, by grace. But, it is God who is justifying us in an ongoing fashion through his gift of grace. We become what he declares us to be.

“…work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.” (Ph 2:12-13).

Can Is it theoretically possible to be justified apart from the sacraments? Sure. The church teaches by baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Also, God can sovereignly justify anyone according to his will. Baptism is the normal means the church has for the initiation of persons into the family of God and by which a man is initially justified. But, it does not limit God’s ability to justify us at anytime.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Some quotes on Catholic justification:

“Broadly speaking, Catholic and Orthodox Christians distinguish between initial justification —which in their view occurs at baptism— and final justification, accomplished after a lifetime of striving to do God’s will.”
source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_%28theology%29

“Justification is a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour”
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/223-2/

“Justification is conferred in Baptism [33]. Baptism is necessary for salvation of those who hear the Gospel (Mark 16:16. 1 Peter 3:21) and have chance to take it [34]. Through Baptism we are cleansed from original sin, other sins (Acts 2:38, 22:16) and all punishment for sins [35] – we are therefore born anew (Romans 6:3-4) as sons of God [36], become members of His Church [37] and receive the grace of justification [38], i.e. Sanctifying Grace. Sanctifying Grace is lost through committing mortal sin [39] – we regain it back when moved by grace we repent and are forgiven (by God) through Sacrament of Penance [40].”
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/223-2/

"Because Justification is an on-going process, it starts when God, without any merit from us [7], takes the initiative to move us to believe in Christ (John 6:44). It includes Sanctification, remission of sin and renewal of inner man [8].
Sanctification is separated from Justification but there is no Justification without Sanctification [9].
“Through (on-going process) Justification the righteousness of God through Christ is infused by the Holy Spirit in us or through Justification we are made righteous [10], as stated in Romans 5:19.”
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/223-2/

“Our righteousness does come from God (not from ourselves) and with our co-operation it becomes inherent part of us – we become and are righteous [8].”
vivacatholic.wordpress.com/223-2/

"Adults are justified FOR THE FIRST TIME either by personal faith, sorrow for sin and baptism, or by the perfect love of God, which is at least an implicit baptism of desire.

(Modern Catholic Dictionary, Garden City, NY: Doubleday & Co., 1980, “Justification, Theology
of,” 302, emphasis added)"
socrates58.blogspot.com/2004/05/catholic-initial-justification.html

“Justification…It can refer to a divine action as well as a spiritual process. As an action, justification is the moment when God makes righteous the one who believes in Christ and establishes him or her in a covenant relationship with himself. As a process, justification is the growth in righteousness and grace that takes place in the believer who embraces the demands of the gospel and yields himself or herself to the leading of the Spirit.”
(Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn)

“Moreover, justification by faith is effected in the liturgical context of baptism. Paul indicates as much when he tells the Corinthians: “But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor 6:11). Baptism, being the sacrament of faith, is therefore the sacrament of justification (Titus 3:5-7).”
(Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn)

“Likewise, because the grace that justifies is a “free gift of righteousness” (Rom 5:17), Paul insists that man cannot be the author of his own justificatino, either by the performance of good works in general (titus 3:5) or by the observance of specific works of the Law (Rom 3:28). Were this possible, man would have an occasion for boasting in himself (Rom 4:2; Eph 2:8-9) rather than in the Lord (1 Cor 1:30-31).”
(Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn)

 

[fisherman_carl]

"Important clarification on the doctrine of justification is found in the Letter of James (Jas 2:14-26). Many scholars hold that James addressed the issue because of misunderstandings circulating about Paul’s emphasis on justification by faith. James highlights the ongoing aspect of justification as a process an idea that is also found in Paul, but with less prominence than the idea of the initial justification of the believer.

Apparently some Christians in the early Church mistook Paul’s stress on “faith” to mean that “faith alone” justifies. This is incorrect and potentially dangerous, especially as it led some to depreciate the importance of pursuing works of mercy and charity (Jas 2:14-17). James therefore asserts that believers are also “justified by works” (Jas 2:21). To demonstrate the point, he shows that not only was Abraham righteous by faith, and thus established in a state of friendship with God (Jas 2:23), but Abraham also put that faith into action when the Lord called him to sacrifice Isaac (Jas 2:21). This act too became an occasion for Abraham’s justification; only it was not the initial declaration of his righteousness, but a further advancement in righteousness made possible by his faith made active in works. James thus concludes from this scriptural example: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas 2:24).

Paul would hardily agree with this assessment. For he too maintains the importance of works, not as a means of establishing one in a righteous covenant with God, but as a means of fulfilling the obligations of the covenant and thereby growing in righteousness (Rom 6:13, 16). For him, saving faith must be a working faith, for “it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom 2:13). Moreover, the only way to follow the commandments and live as God’s children is to submit ourselves to the grace of the Spirit (Rom 8:1-17). It is the Spirit that pours God’s love into the heart of the believer (Rom 5:5), enabling him to love as the Law commands (Rom 13:8-10)."

• Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn

 

[fisherman_carl]

But [justification] begins before Baptism.

I think we can agree that God moves us by actual grace towards justification prior to baptism. He begins his process to justify us before baptism. But justification of the sinner, where one is declared righteous, is not normally effected until baptism, the sacrament of faith.

 

[De_Maria]

The church defined the justification that occurs at baptism as a translation, not me. As far as the sacrament of confession I did not say that is what occurs there…
Can Is it theoretically possible to be justified apart from the sacraments? Sure. The church teaches by baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Also, God can sovereignly justify anyone according to his will. Baptism is the normal means the church has for the initiation of persons into the family of God and by which a man is initially justified. But, it does not limit God’s ability to justify us at anytime.

Ok, I don’t know if you misunderstood me or I misunderstood you. I agree with all of that you say above. But, that is besides the point of this thread.

The point of the thread is that:

1. St. Paul did not teach justification by faith alone.
2. St. Paul did teach justification by faith apart from works.
3. St. Paul taught that only those who work are justified.
   a. They are justified by God, in the beginning of conversion, because of their response of faith and works in obedience to His call.
   b. They are justified by God, in the Sacraments, according to their disposition of faith, apart from their works, because we can’t wash our own soul. Only God can do that.

Do you agree with these points?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Some quotes on Catholic justification:

“Broadly speaking, Catholic and Orthodox Christians distinguish between initial justification —which in their view occurs at baptism— and final justification, accomplished after a lifetime of striving to do God’s will.”
source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justification_%28theology%29…

“Likewise, because the grace that justifies is a “free gift of righteousness” (Rom 5:17), Paul insists that man cannot be the author of his own justificatino, either by the performance of good works in general (titus 3:5) or by the observance of specific works of the Law (Rom 3:28). Were this possible, man would have an occasion for boasting in himself (Rom 4:2; Eph 2:8-9) rather than in the Lord (1 Cor 1:30-31).”
(Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn)

All that is true. But I’ve already quoted Trent and the Catechism and I’ve provided the example of St. Cornelius, which show that justification begins BEFORE Baptism.

So, what is your point?

 

[De_Maria]

"Important clarification on the doctrine of justification is found in the Letter of James (Jas 2:14-26). Many scholars hold that James addressed the issue because of misunderstandings circulating about Paul’s emphasis on justification by faith. James highlights the ongoing aspect of justification as a process an idea that is also found in Paul, but with less prominence than the idea of the initial justification of the believer.

Apparently some Christians in the early Church mistook Paul’s stress on “faith” to mean that “faith alone” justifies. This is incorrect and potentially dangerous, especially as it led some to depreciate the importance of pursuing works of mercy and charity (Jas 2:14-17). James therefore asserts that believers are also “justified by works” (Jas 2:21). To demonstrate the point, he shows that not only was Abraham righteous by faith, and thus established in a state of friendship with God (Jas 2:23), but Abraham also put that faith into action when the Lord called him to sacrifice Isaac (Jas 2:21). This act too became an occasion for Abraham’s justification; only it was not the initial declaration of his righteousness, but a further advancement in righteousness made possible by his faith made active in works. James thus concludes from this scriptural example: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas 2:24).

Paul would hardily agree with this assessment. For he too maintains the importance of works, not as a means of establishing one in a righteous covenant with God, but as a means of fulfilling the obligations of the covenant and thereby growing in righteousness (Rom 6:13, 16). For him, saving faith must be a working faith, for “it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom 2:13). Moreover, the only way to follow the commandments and live as God’s children is to submit ourselves to the grace of the Spirit (Rom 8:1-17). It is the Spirit that pours God’s love into the heart of the believer (Rom 5:5), enabling him to love as the Law commands (Rom 13:8-10)."

• Catholic Bible Dictionary, Scott Hahn

I agree with all this. Although I think Dr. Hahn contradicts himself in this sentence:
For he too maintains the importance of works, not as a means of establishing one in a righteous covenant with God, but as a means of fulfilling the obligations of the covenant and thereby growing in righteousness (Rom 6:13, 16).

That is self contradicting. But I understand what he means and I agree.

None of this is to the point of the thread. Or if it is, please clarify.

 

[De_Maria]

I think we can agree that God moves us by actual grace towards justification prior to baptism.

I’m sorry, but in so saying you deny the plain words of Scripture, St. Cornelius was a righteous man BEFORE Baptism. And you also deny the words of Trent and the Catechism.

He begins his process to justify us before baptism.

Trent doesn’t say He begins the process, Trent says:
the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God

But justification of the sinner, where one is declared righteous, is not normally effected until baptism, the sacrament of faith.

Sins are forgiven and washed away at Baptism. But the justification of the man which is described as the “turning to God” and “convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace;” and the “detestation and repentance from sin”; all this begins BEFORE Baptism.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fisherman_carl]

I’m sorry, but in so saying you deny the plain words of Scripture, St. Cornelius was a righteous man BEFORE Baptism. And you also deny the words of Trent and the Catechism.

I’m sorry, but that is just uncalled for. I’m not denying Trent or scripture. I never said justification could not take place before baptism. I said it normally is effected with baptism. You keep putting words in my mouth. Obviously, if we can’t have a charitable discussion then its not worth discussing. I thought we could agree on something but you just want to keep picking apart everything I say and give it some negative connotation.

God Bless

“Remind them of this, and charge them before the Lord to avoid disputing about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers” (2Tim. 2:14, RSV; cf. 1Tim. 6:4).

I’ve been reading through this post which has been helpful to me.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM

"Chapter 6 [Trent] does into more detail about this turning to God, called a “preparation for justification,” and says that in it those who are to be justified understand themselves to be sinners, turn themselves from the fear of God’s judgement, and are raised to hope, trusting that God will help them for Christ’s sake, that they begin to love Him as the fountain of all righteousness, and are moved to hate and detest their sins, and that they finally resolve to be baptized and begin a new life. This take us to the brink of our initial justification, which is received either when baptism takes place (or before, through the baptism of desire)…

…The Catholic church is thus firmly in line with Scripture when it says that baptism is the means by which we are incorporated into Christ, and thus that baptism is the means through which we receive justification."
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM