He didn't say, "faith alone"

[De_Maria]

I’m sorry, but that is just uncalled for. I’m not denying Trent or scripture. I never said justification could not take place before baptism.

You didn’t?

I said it normally is effected with baptism.

That is a correct statement. But in can be stated more correctly.

1. Justification normally begins “before” Baptism, when one accepts the call to conversion, turns to Him and begins to live a life of virtue according to His Commands.
2. The justification which is effected in Baptism is the translation of the man Adam to the son of God. This is a complete gift of God given only to those who believe in Him.
3. Justification continues after Baptism, as the man of God continues to live a life of Grace.

You keep putting words in my mouth.

I’m only trying to understand what you’re saying.

Obviously, if we can’t have a charitable discussion then its not worth discussing. I thought we could agree on something but you just want to keep picking apart everything I say and give it some negative connotation.

1. I am very happy and thankful that you engaged me in this discussion.
2. For me, the conversation is not about you and I. It is about truth.
3. I am here to learn and I am here to teach. If someone proves me wrong, I hope that I can accept it in a Godly manner.
4. But I don’t want to put you in an uncomfortable position. I am very blunt. That’s a habit I’ve never been able to break. I think I’m saying things nicely and people take it as an insult.
5. So, if you feel as though you don’t want to continue the discussion, I understand.

Thanks for participating. I hope the discussion has been mutually beneficial.

“Remind them of this, and charge them before the Lord to avoid disputing about words, which does no good, but only ruins the hearers” (2Tim. 2:14, RSV; cf. 1Tim. 6:4).

I’ve been reading through this post which has been helpful to me.
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM

"Chapter 6 [Trent] does into more detail about this turning to God, called a “preparation for justification,” and says that in it those who are to be justified understand themselves to be sinners, turn themselves from the fear of God’s judgement, and are raised to hope, trusting that God will help them for Christ’s sake, that they begin to love Him as the fountain of all righteousness, and are moved to hate and detest their sins, and that they finally resolve to be baptized and begin a new life. This take us to the brink of our initial justification, which is received either when baptism takes place (or before, through the baptism of desire)…

…The Catholic church is thus firmly in line with Scripture when it says that baptism is the means by which we are incorporated into Christ, and thus that baptism is the means through which we receive justification."
ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/JUSTIF.HTM

Jimmy Akins’ error begins in this. First he says:
Justification is a process. Then he says, Justification is:
“[A] translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.”

Now, we all know that the translation of a son of Adam to a son of God occurs at Baptism. So, he contradicts himself saying, justification is a process and then describing it as an event.

His next error is to say that the beginning of justification is in Baptism. When Trent says it begins with God’s call to conversion.

The only way he can come to this error is by neglecting to explain how St. Cornelius could come to be a righteous man, according to Scripture, before, WAY BEFORE, he was baptized and yet, the Gospel was already promulgated.

The Catholic Church does not contradict Scripture. So, to say that justification begins at Baptism would contradict Scripture. And in my opinion also contradict, Trent and the CCC.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[anrmenchaca47]

When St. Paul said, “justified by faith apart from works”, Luther interpreted that as faith “alone”: But that s not what St. Paul meant. St. Paul was teaching the justification which occurs in the Sacraments.

Let me explain:

St. Paul taught the Catholic Teaching that only those who do the works of the Law are justified:

Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

In Catholic Teaching, we are justified by faith and works. That is the foundation and root of all justification. Faith is expressed and perfected in works.

However, the Church also teaches that we are justified in the Sacraments where we are washed in sanctifying grace. Especially Baptism. Sacraments are God’s mighty works. We don’t do anything except submit to His works in the proper dispostion, which is that of faith.

This is the Justification by faith apart from works to which St. Paul referred.

The process is evident in every semester of RCIA. By faith, we seek the Lord and study to show ourselves approved. Only those who undergo this process are then JUSTIFIED in Baptism.

Lets take another example.

St. Paul says:
Galatians 2:16

King James Version (KJV)

16Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Notice how he repeatedly says here, “faith OF Christ”. Not “by faith IN Christ”. He is not speaking about believing in Christ. That is assumed. He is speaking about the observance of the rituals instituted by Christ in His new way. He is speaking of the Sacraments.

And this, is Luther’s error. He did not connect the Sacramental teaching of St. Paul. Luther recognized the Sacraments and he recognized the perfection of the sinner in the justification by faith. But denied the merit of that expression of faith in good works without which no one will be saved. And he applied St. Paul’s teaching wrongly across the board. He failed to recognize the difference between the justification by faith and works that occurs as a result of the effort of the man of God which is illustrated by St. Peter below:

2 Peter 1:4-10

King James Version (KJV)

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.

And that justifcation by faith apart from works which occurs by the action of God in the Sacraments:
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What do you think?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Excellent! Not only can I use the Douay-Rheims, and NAB I can definitely use the KJV. I Love it. Best explanation of Faith justified by works I have ever heard. Bravo!

 

[fisherman_carl]

You didn’t?

That is a correct statement. But in can be stated more correctly.

1. Justification normally begins “before” Baptism, when one accepts the call to conversion, turns to Him and begins to live a life of virtue according to His Commands.
2. The justification which is effected in Baptism is the translation of the man Adam to the son of God. This is a complete gift of God given only to those who believe in Him.
3. Justification continues after Baptism, as the man of God continues to live a life of Grace.

I’m only trying to understand what you’re saying.

1. I am very happy and thankful that you engaged me in this discussion.
2. For me, the conversation is not about you and I. It is about truth.
3. I am here to learn and I am here to teach. If someone proves me wrong, I hope that I can accept it in a Godly manner.
4. But I don’t want to put you in an uncomfortable position. I am very blunt. That’s a habit I’ve never been able to break. I think I’m saying things nicely and people take it as an insult.
5. So, if you feel as though you don’t want to continue the discussion, I understand.

Thanks for participating. I hope the discussion has been mutually beneficial.

Jimmy Akins’ error begins in this. First he says:
Justification is a process. Then he says, Justification is:
“[A] translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.”

Now, we all know that the translation of a son of Adam to a son of God occurs at Baptism. So, he contradicts himself saying, justification is a process and then describing it as an event.

His next error is to say that the beginning of justification is in Baptism. When Trent says it begins with God’s call to conversion.

The only way he can come to this error is by neglecting to explain how St. Cornelius could come to be a righteous man, according to Scripture, before, WAY BEFORE, he was baptized and yet, the Gospel was already promulgated.

The Catholic Church does not contradict Scripture. So, to say that justification begins at Baptism would contradict Scripture. And in my opinion also contradict, Trent and the CCC.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Do you have some official document besides your interpretstion that says what you are saying is correct and Jimmy Akin is wrong? Because I havent seen you quote anything from catechism or trent or any source that proves this. I’m not saying you are wrong. But, you seem to contradict Jimmy Akin as well as other sources I have quoted who are far more knowledgeble than I.

 

[De_Maria]

Do you have some official document besides your interpretstion that says what you are saying is correct and Jimmy Akin is wrong? Because I havent seen you quote anything from catechism or trent or any source that proves this. I’m not saying you are wrong. But, you seem to contradict Jimmy Akin as well as other sources I have quoted who are far more knowledgeble than I.

Really? Because I thought we had pretty much been discussing the Council of Trent, especially Chapter 5. And, without researching our voluminous discussion, I’m pretty sure that the relevant catechism paragraphs came up as well.

For your convenience, here they are again:
*
TRENT 6
CHAPTER IV
A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE

In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.

Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.*

I believe those are the pertinent texts which we discussed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Excellent! Not only can I use the Douay-Rheims, and NAB I can definitely use the KJV. I Love it. Best explanation of Faith justified by works I have ever heard. Bravo!

Thanks! God bless you!

 

[fisherman_carl]

Really? Because I thought we had pretty much been discussing the Council of Trent, especially Chapter 5. And, without researching our voluminous discussion, I’m pretty sure that the relevant catechism paragraphs came up as well.

For your convenience, here they are again:
*
TRENT 6
CHAPTER IV
A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE

In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.

This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]

CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS

It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.

Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:34

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.*

I believe those are the pertinent texts which we discussed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

You’ve only just given me your interpretation of the council of Trent. I was looking for someone else who shares the same interpretation as you. I find it interesting that even though you say that Jimmy Akin is wrong, EWTN still found it perfectly acceptable to post his explanation of Justification on their website as the explanation for what justification is. If Jimmy Akin is wrong then so must be EWTN.

 

[fisherman_carl]

"2020 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most excellent work of God’s mercy. "

 

[fisherman_carl]

The way I kind of look at it is that in the catechism or Trent, when it talks about justification and when it occurs, as in giving justification an actual set time in space, it always says it is effected in baptism. Trent talks of justification is a translation that occurs at baptism (washing of laver) or before by baptism of desire.

It does say in the section called ‘preparation for justification (IV)’ that the ‘beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ’. But, I’m not sure how you get that we are justified prior to baptism from that statement. It only says that our justification can not begin until we have God’s grace working in our lives. I’m not saying that it rules out justification before baptism. Only that it does not mention when justification occurs, only that it requires grace. The only place that I see mentioned when justification occurs is at baptism. So forgive me if I (and others like Jimmy Akin) are confused.

If we were normally justified prior to baptism then what would be the point of being baptized? If we are already righteous before baptism then would not baptism only be symbolic? This is what many Protestants believe about baptism. Where does the church say that we are normally justified prior to being baptized (other than baptism of desire)? Is that what you are saying?

 

[De_Maria]

You’ve only just given me your interpretation of the council of Trent. I was looking for someone else who shares the same interpretation as you.

Do you mean the interpretation of Romans 2:13 and 3:28? Or of Trent?

As for Trent, the Catholic Encyclopedia says:
…We now come to the different states in the process of justification. The Council of Trent assigns the first and most important place to faith, which is styled “the beginning, foundation and root of all justification” (Trent, l.c., cap.viii)…

We come to faith before Baptism, correct? Otherwise, why would we be baptized? The Catholic Encyclopedia also says:

*The Council of Trent decreed that the essence of active justification comprises not only forgiveness of sin, but also “sanctification and renovation of the interior man by means of the voluntary acceptation of sanctifying grace and other supernatural gifts” (Trent, l. c., cap. vii: “Non est sola peccatorum remissio, sed et sanctificatio et renovatio interioris hominis per voluntariam susceptionem gratiae et donorum”).
…By this, however, we do not assert that the “justitia Dei extra nos” is of no importance in the process of justification. For, even if it is not the formal cause of justification (causa formalis), it is nevertheless its true exemplar (causa exemplaris), inasmuch as the soul receives a sanctity in imitation of God’s own holiness.The Council of Trent (l. c. cap. vii), moreover, did not neglect to enumerate in detail the other causes of justification:… *
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

This justification by God “extra nos” or outside of us, is what begins during the preparation for Baptism.

In a Spanish language document, which you can translate with Google, it says. I bolded and translated the pertinent parts:
PREPARAR DE ANTEMANO. El Tridentino, s.6, c.5-7, emplea indistintamente los vocablos cooperación a la gracia divina, disposición y preparación previa (D 797, 799, 814, 819). Así pues decimos: negativamente, que el pecador no debe permanecer sólo de un modo pasivo en orden a recibir la justificación; positivamente, que él mismo debe aportar algo para su justificación con una cierta actividad suya, que deberá concretarse después. Entretanto no decimos nada acerca de la naturaleza de ésta preparación previa o disposición.

DEBEN, esto es, están obligados por voluntad de Dios que así lo tiene decretado; lo cual además está ciertamente muy de acuerdo con la razón.

La JUSTIFICACION, en las Sagradas Escrituras, se considera de distintas maneras.

a) En sentido metonímico, respecto a la ley misma que ordena y enseña la justicia, o respecto a la declaración externa de la justicia (Sal 118; Prov 17,15).

***Pertinent translation:
The JUSTIFICATION, in Scripture, it is considered in different ways.

a) On the metonymic relation to the law itself that organizes and teaches justice, or with respect to the external declaration of justice (Psalm 118, Proverbs 17:15).***

*b) Respecto a la adquisición de la justicia (Lc 18,14; Rom 8,30).

c) Respecto al aumento de la justicia (Apoc 22,11).*
mercaba.org/TEOLOGIA/STE/Vol%20III/Tratado%203/capitulo_ii_art_1_de_la_gracia_de_la_j.htm

St. Thomas Aquinas:
newadvent.org/summa/2113.htm#article1
Question 113
Article 1
I answer that, Justification taken passively implies a movement towards justice, as heating implies a movement towards heat…

Article 2
On the contrary, It is written (Romans 3:24): “Justified freely by His grace.”

I answer that, by sinning a man offends God as stated above (Question 71, Article 5). Now an offense is remitted to anyone, only when the soul of the offender is at peace with the offended.

Article 3
On the contrary, It is written (John 6:45): “Every one that hath heard of the Father, and hath learned, cometh to Me.” Now to learn cannot be without a movement of the free-will, since the learner assents to the teacher. Hence, no one comes to the Father by justifying grace without a movement of the free-will.

I answer that, The justification of the ungodly is brought about by God moving man to justice. For He it is “that justifieth the ungodly” according to Romans 4:5.

Article 5
I answer that, As stated above (Article 1), the justification of the ungodly is a certain movement whereby the human mind is moved by God from the state of sin to the state of justice.

So forth and so on. Movement of the sinner towards God, in other words “conversion” is the beginning of justification.

I find it interesting that even though you say that Jimmy Akin is wrong, EWTN still found it perfectly acceptable to post his explanation of Justification on their website as the explanation for what justification is. If Jimmy Akin is wrong then so must be EWTN.

Are either of them infallible?

However, I find no modern apologist who teaches anything which explains the justification of St. Cornelius.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fisherman_carl]

Ok, so how do you reconcile this statement which is from where you quoted?

"Justification denotes that change or transformation in the soul by which man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer (l.c., cap.iv: “Justificatio impii. . . translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adae, in statum gratiae et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam, Jesum Christum, Salvatorem nostrum”). In the New Law this** justification cannot, according to Christ’s precept, be effected except at the fountain of regeneration, that is, by the baptism of water**. "
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

And also my other question that you have not addressed yet is, is baptism only symbolic then, if we are justified prior to baptism?

 

[fisherman_carl]

“In the New Law this justification cannot, according to Christ’s precept, be effected except at the fountain of regeneration, that is, by the baptism of water.”

Having read that, this gives us a framework to understand what is said after that.

"We now come to the different states in the process of justification. The Council of Trent assigns the** first and most important place to faith, which is styled “the beginning, foundation and root of all justification**” (Trent, l.c., cap.viii). … The next step is a genuine sorrow for all sin with the resolution to begin a new life by receiving holy baptism and by observing the commandments of God. The process of justification is then brought to a close by the baptism of water, inasmuch as by the grace of this sacrament the catechumen is freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God. "
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

So, I see 4 things involved here - Faith, sorrow for sin, resolution to start a new life through baptism and observing the commandments. But justification still “cannot… be effected except… by the baptism of water”, is still true. Thus without baptism, or at least it’s desire, one can not be justified. Because it is there that, “man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer.”

Therefore while elements of justification are there prior to baptism, like faith and repentance, desire to live according to the commandments, we still need to be baptized in order to be justified as a son of God, “freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God.”

 

[De_Maria]

Ok, so how do you reconcile this statement which is from where you quoted?

"Justification denotes that change or transformation in the soul by which man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer (l.c., cap.iv: “Justificatio impii. . . translatio ab eo statu, in quo homo nascitur filius primi Adae, in statum gratiae et adoptionis filiorum Dei per secundum Adam, Jesum Christum, Salvatorem nostrum”). In the New Law this** justification cannot, according to Christ’s precept, be effected except at the fountain of regeneration, that is, by the baptism of water**. "
newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm

Catholic doctrine recognizes two forms of Justification. The acquisition of righteousness by turning to God, “conversion” which is the beginning of justification. Baptism, which is the translation of the son of Adam to the son of God and the continuing justification of the just man by faith and works. This paragraph is talking about the second, the Justification by faith apart from works which is the work of God.

And also my other question that you have not addressed yet is, is baptism only symbolic then, if we are justified prior to baptism?

Since the advent of Jesus Christ and the promulgation of the Gospel, justification is a life long process which begins at conversion.

Now will you answer my question? How do you explain St. Cornelius, if justification begins at Baptism?

In fact, I think that is a good thread to start.

We can continue there to discuss that question. I would however, like an answer to the question I asked on this thread. Will you ever address it? Do you still claim we are justified by our works IN THE SACRAMENTS?

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[fisherman_carl]

Catholic doctrine recognizes two forms of Justification. The acquisition of righteousness by turning to God, “conversion” which is the beginning of justification. Baptism, which is the translation of the son of Adam to the son of God and the continuing justification of the just man by faith and works. This paragraph is talking about the second, the Justification by faith apart from works which is the work of God.

So we are saying the same thing then. But you are focusing on the beginning of the process of God Justifying us. And I am focusing on when God declares us to be righteous and an adopted son of God. At that point in baptism though is when we are declared just. Can you agree that baptism is required for salvation? Because that is what the Church teaches. I’m sure you are not advocating that it is fine to never be baptized as long as you have faith, right?

Since the advent of Jesus Christ and the promulgation of the Gospel, justification is a life long process which begins at conversion.

That doesn’t really answer the question does it. So are you saying baptism isn’t needed since it is a one time event?

Now will you answer my question? How do you explain St. Cornelius, if justification begins at Baptism?

I don’t have to explain Cornelius, he was baptized and therefore justified. Jesus said in order to be justified we must be born of ‘water and Spirit’ (Jn 3:5). Both are required. The fact that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized does not negate the necessity of his baptism. That would be going against what Jesus said. Why would Peter feel it was still necessary to baptize Cornelius if he thought all he needed was to speak in tongues?

I did say that I agreed that the process of God starting to Justify us did start before baptism. For instance we experience a conversion and have faith and repentance before baptism, although the catechism teaches it is a weak faith. This prepares us to receive our initial justification at baptism where we become sons of God. My concern was that it sounded like you were saying that we are normally justified prior to being baptized. Well, if that is true then why do we need to baptized at all?

We can continue there to discuss that question. I would however, like an answer to the question I asked on this thread. Will you ever address it? Do you still claim we are justified by our works IN THE SACRAMENTS?

I never said that. The grace we receive at baptism is a gift from God. Salvation is a gift that can not be earned. That is why it is at the Sacrament that we receive our initial justification because it can’t be earned by works prior to the sanctifying grace received at that sacrament. It is conferred as a free gift in baptism.

 

[fisherman_carl]

“Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.10”

• CCC 1216

 

[fisherman_carl]

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”

1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

 

[De_Maria]

“In the New Law this justification cannot, according to Christ’s precept, be effected except at the fountain of regeneration, that is, by the baptism of water.”

Having read that, this gives us a framework to understand what is said after that.

"We now come to the different states in the process of justification. The Council of Trent assigns the** first and most important place to faith, which is styled “the beginning, foundation and root of all justification**” (Trent, l.c., cap.viii). … The next step is a genuine sorrow for all sin with the resolution to begin a new life by receiving holy baptism and by observing the commandments of God. **The process of justification is then brought to a close by the baptism of water, **

Nope. Read Chapter X.

inasmuch as by the grace of this sacrament the catechumen is freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God.

Then, did Scripture err in calling St. Cornelius a just man before he was baptized?

Thus without baptism, or at least it’s desire, one can not be justified. Because it is there that, “man is transferred from the state of original sin, in which as a child of Adam he was born, to that of grace and Divine sonship through Jesus Christ, the second Adam, our Redeemer.”

That is only one type of Baptism. Which the Council of Trent is focusing upon. But not denying the others, as you have shown above.

Therefore while elements of justification are there prior to baptism,

Because the process has begun prior to Baptism.

like faith and repentance, desire to live according to the commandments, we still need to be baptized in order to be justified as a son of God,

Now we’re on the same page.

“freed from sin (original and personal) and its punishments, and is made a child of God.”

Very good. Except we continue to be justified by faith and works and by faith apart from works (i.e. the Sacraments), throughout our lives. Baptism is not the end.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

So we are saying the same thing then. But you are focusing on the beginning of the process of God Justifying us. And I am focusing on when God declares us to be righteous and an adopted son of God. At that point in baptism though is when we are declared just. Can you agree that baptism is required for salvation?

You mean “Sacramental” Baptism. As long as you aren’t denying the Baptisms of desire and of blood, yes, we can agree.

Because that is what the Church teaches. I’m sure you are not advocating that it is fine to never be baptized as long as you have faith, right?

No.

That doesn’t really answer the question does it. So are you saying baptism isn’t needed since it is a one time event?

Where did you get that impression? Baptism now save us (1 Pet 3:21).

I don’t have to explain Cornelius, he was baptized and therefore justified.

You do if you claim that he was had not begun to be justified before Baptism. Because even before he met St. Peter, he is considered a just man. And the Scripture can not be broken.

Jesus said in order to be justified we must be born of ‘water and Spirit’ (Jn 3:5).

No He didn’t. Please quote the verse.

Both are required.

To be born again.

The fact that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized does not negate the necessity of his baptism.

I’m not even talking about his receiving the Holy Spirit. I’m talking about the angel visiting him and saying that his prayers were heard and telling to send men to St. Peter. And those men went to St. Peter and told him that St. Cornelius was a just man. This is the Holy Spirit telling us this in Scripture. St. Cornelius had not yet spoken in tongues. The Holy Spirit had not yet been poured into him. He had not yet been Baptized.

That would be going against what Jesus said. Why would Peter feel it was still necessary to baptize Cornelius if he thought all he needed was to speak in tongues?

Who said that St. Cornelius only needed to speak in tongues? Who said that St. Cornelius didn’t need to be Baptized? I sure didn’t. Or if you say I did, quote me.

I did say that I agreed that the process of God starting to Justify us did start before baptism.

And that is the ENTIRE POINT OF THIS THREAD. Why do you keep acting as though there is anything else here being discussed?

For instance we experience a conversion and have faith and repentance before baptism, although the catechism teaches it is a weak faith. This prepares us to receive our initial justification at baptism where we become sons of God. My concern was that it sounded like you were saying that we are normally justified prior to being baptized. Well, if that is true then why do we need to baptized at all?

I didn’t say it, so you need not be concerned.

I never said that. The grace we receive at baptism is a gift from God. Salvation is a gift that can not be earned. That is why it is at the Sacrament that we receive our initial justification because it can’t be earned by works prior to the sanctifying grace received at that sacrament. It is conferred as a free gift in baptism.

It is a gift, but not a free gift. If it were a free gift, it would be conferred to all. It is a gift conferred only to those who obey Godt:
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Only to those who keep the Commandments. That is why, only those who keep the Commandments are free to eat of the Tree of Life (i.e. the Eucharist) and go to heaven.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

“Baptism is God’s most beautiful and magnificent gift. . . .We call it gift, grace, anointing, enlightenment, garment of immortality, bath of rebirth, seal, and most precious gift. It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; grace since it is given even to the guilty; Baptism because sin is buried in the water; anointing for it is priestly and royal as are those who are anointed; enlightenment because it radiates light; clothing since it veils our shame; bath because it washes; and seal as it is our guard and the sign of God’s Lordship.10”

• CCC 1216

Correct. But it isn’t conferred on everyone. Only on those who obey God by keeping the Commandments.

 

[De_Maria]

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.”

1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

All that is true. But justification begins BEFORE Baptism.

 

[De_Maria]

The way I kind of look at it is that in the catechism or Trent, when it talks about justification and when it occurs, as in giving justification an actual set time in space, it always says it is effected in baptism. Trent talks of justification is a translation that occurs at baptism (washing of laver) or before by baptism of desire.

It does say in the section called ‘preparation for justification (IV)’ that the ‘beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ’. But, I’m not sure how you get that we are justified prior to baptism from that statement. It only says that our justification can not begin until we have God’s grace working in our lives. I’m not saying that it rules out justification before baptism. Only that it does not mention when justification occurs, only that it requires grace. The only place that I see mentioned when justification occurs is at baptism. So forgive me if I (and others like Jimmy Akin) are confused.

If we were normally justified prior to baptism then what would be the point of being baptized? If we are already righteous before baptism then would not baptism only be symbolic? This is what many Protestants believe about baptism. Where does the church say that we are normally justified prior to being baptized (other than baptism of desire)? Is that what you are saying?

You’ll have to quote me where I said we were justified prior to Baptism. I don’t remember saying it. I do remember saying that the process of justification begins before Baptism. And that St. Cornelius is described as a just man before he was Baptized.

The difference between the OT and the New, is that in the Old, Justification was a process which consisted of faith and works, by keeping the Commandments.

Since the time of the promulgation of the Gospel, it is a process of keeping the Commandments, Baptism, keeping the Commandments, Reconciliation, keeping the Commandments, Eucharist, keeping the Commandments, Confirmation…etc. etc.

Or to put it another way, it is a process of faith and works, faith apart from works, faith and works, faith apart from works, faith and works, faith apart from works…etc. etc.

You get the picture?

Sincerely,

De Maria