D
De_Maria
Guest
But the process of justification begins before Baptism.
- Status
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fisherman_carl
Guest
When I say justification I mean salvation. Jesus said unless you are born of water and Spirit you can not enter the kingdom of God in John 3:5. That is talking about baptism.
1215 This sacrament is also called “the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit,” for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one “can enter the kingdom of God.”
Amen. And without being born again one can not be saved.
Because when you said justification begins before baptism I took that to mean that you were saying that one was declared to be justified before baptism. But, now I think you are saying that the process of God justifying us starts before baptism through grace. (You are not saying that we are declared justified before baptism). And, I would agree with that since he gives us grace for our conversion and repentance. Yet, we can not be declared just until our sins have been forgiven in Christ Jesus which is what happens at baptism.
"Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.’ "
- Acts 22:16
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Bookcat
Guest
Faith and works in these two in terms of Paul.
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081126_en.html
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Bookcat
Guest
Another good one on Paul:
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html
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anrmenchaca47
Guest
De Maria,
I know you have a lot to answer with everyone’s responses. However, how does justification begin before baptism? For example, my wife and I are expecting a child at the end of May/beginnig of June and we will baptize our child, BUT when my child is born at the moment of birth, how is she (I’m hoping for a girl!! ) justified? Please advise…of course when you can though because you have been pretty busy with a lot of responses. Thanks a bunch!!!
Menchaca
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guanophore
Guest
Justification begins before baptism?
Being justified is being placed in a right relationship with God, which is what happens in Confession. Another way of saying it is being in a “state of grace”.
Obedience increases grace.
Yes, but they are justified in the same way we all are. They are not justified BY the works of the Law, but by grace, through faith. It is this grace that enables them to keep the commandments of God, just like grace enables us to do it.
The nature of sin does not change after baptism. Sin can still separate us from God. The wages of sin is death. When we are cleansed from sin, we are brought back to life, just as the Prodigal son was dead, and when he came home to his father “is alive again”. It is not the same kind of “born again” that occurs in baptism.
Not sure what you mean by “translated” here, but sins are washed away in baptism.
I don’t think this is accurate. Only grace justifies people. It is not our faith or our works that justify. These are the faculties through which we access the grace that justifies. This is a critical point, especially for our separated brethren because they are often erroneously taught that Catholics think we are justified by our works.
A measure of grace for salvation is given to all men. This is called prevenient or drawing grace. This is what brings people into the sacramental life of the Church. Many people respond to this grace by faith, and their response brings them toward a right relationship with God, which is formally established in baptism.
But we cannot say that justification happens before baptism, because we don’t see this in infants.
G
guanophore
Guest
No, there is no contradiction. Before Christian baptism, people were still saved in the same way - by grace, through faith. No one was ever saved BY the works of the Law. They found righteousness by grace, through faith, and their righteousness was increased in their obedience.
These are not contradictory positions. Everyone is given predisposing grace. Not all respond as Cornelius did. The ones who don’t respond are not justified.
In adults, yes, but one cannot make a blanket doctrinal assertion that does not apply in all cases. Since justification happens when infants are baptized, and they do not respond to prevenient grace, it cannot be said that their justification begins before their baptism.
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De_Maria
Guest
We are discussing the process of justification in Adults. The one which people undergo who go through RCIA. The Council of Trent says:
CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
*It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.
Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.*
Having said that, the process of justification for an infant begins with you, the parent. If you were Hindu, Muslim or Jew, you would not seek Baptism for you or your child unless you converted.
Also, your child is born in Original Sin, but has no “actual sins” on her soul. Therefore, she is born in a semi-justified state already. We, Catholics, do not believe in the “total depravity” of man, as do some sects.
God bless you and your family. I’ll pray you have a girl.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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De_Maria
Guest
What point were you trying to make? Because as far as I can see, this is off topic.
True. But again, off topic.
Precisely.
I think it was one of you who said that, when someone mentioned “Baptism of desire”.
I hadn’t actually considered it, but I suspect it might be true. But if we are declared “justified” or “righteous” it is by the Church. Because it is the Church which approves our request to be Baptized. What the Church locks on earth is locked in heaven, right?
If we look at St. Cornelius, I would say that he was “justified”, but not perfectly. He had repented of his sins, but they weren’t as yet “washed away”. Then he was Baptized.
Therefore, there is the justification we achieve by faith and works. Abraham and the OT fathers are all examples of that.
And there is the perfect justification we RECEIVE in the Sacraments. The mighty works of God which EFFECT in us the perfect justification, translation, regeneration and renewal by the washing of the Holy Spirit.
St. Cornelius was declared just before Baptism. Why can’t anyone else be so declared?
Sincerely,
De Maria
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De_Maria
Guest
Thanks.
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De_Maria
Guest
Yes sir. Please also see my other thread.
It happens in all the Sacraments, but especially Baptism.
God rewards obedience. Agreed.
Agreed. God working in us. Cooperation with grace.
Agreed. It is not the perfect justification which can only result by a “mighty work of God”. The Sacraments are works of God. Not works of men.
Translated from being a son of Adam to being a Son of God, (i.e. born again). The Council of Trent 6 says:
CHAPTER IV
A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER AND ITS MODE IN THE STATE OF GRACE
In which words is given a brief description of the justification of the sinner, as being a translation from that state in which man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace and of the adoption of the sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior.
This translation however cannot, since promulgation of the Gospel, be effected except through the laver of regeneration or its desire, as it is written:
Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.[18]
In a manner of speaking, it is, because without faith and works, God won’t justify us.
Agreed. However, they don’t believe that one needs to keep the Commandments before one is justified (Romans 2:13). And that is the bigger problem in my view. Because many of them have cast away the requirement of the Law:
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
And that is the bigger problem, because:
1 Corinthians 7:19
Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Acts 10:33-35
King James Version (KJV)
33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
** 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
**
That is what the Church teaches.
We aren’t talking about infants. Different subject altogether.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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De_Maria
Guest
Obedience is a work. But what are you talking about? What point are you addressing?
Agreed.
We’re talking about adults. So, yes, we can.
Whether it can or can’t, is besides the point. But I’ll give you one example, and there are more:
St. John the Baptist
Two:
The Virgin Mary.
Just thought I’d give you a bonus. Always remember, God is greater than His Sacraments. If you read the Saints, you will find that SOME heard the voice of God, IN THE WOMB.
Psalm 139:13
King James Version (KJV)
13For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb.
Sincerely,
De Maria
G
guanophore
Guest
Where did you ever get the idea that anyone can be “semi-justified”? Being justified is about being in right relationship with God. It is like being pregnant - one either is, or is not. There is no “semi”.
Yes, and there are some people that have never been catechized, but desire to live according to God’s plan for their lives.
By this reasoning, no one in the OT prior to the advent of baptism could be made right with God. That means all those mentioned in Heb. chap.11 who are extolled as models of our faith are not really perfectly justified before God.
Except that we are justified APART from works. Human beings have always been placed in right relationship with God in the same way - by grace. This grace is working through faith and obedience to His commandments, but the commandments don’t justify us.
So, before the Sacraments, there was no soul right with God?
Did you think the baptism of desire was something other than this?
This refutes your earlier assertion of “semi-justified”. Either a person is a child of Adam, or an adopted son/daughter of God. One cannot be “partly” adopted (translated).
If this were true, then there would be no salvation available to infants, the infirm/paralyzed or disabled who cannot do “works”.
It would also go against the Scripture that states we are justified APART FROM WORKS.
Yes, but we are only able to obey God because of the grace He pours out upon us. It is His Spirit, at work in us, and not ourselves. It is an ergo hagios not a work of our flesh.
That people have always been saved by grace, even before the advent of the Sacraments.
D
De_Maria
Guest
Some are more justified than others. Therefore, some are more “just” than others. Justification is a process. Therefore, there are degrees of justification. A person, such as an infant, who has only Original Sin on the soul, is closer to perfection than one who has Original Sin and venial sin on the soul.
That is simple logic.
But Baptism of Desire does not come into play unless they die without receiving the Sacramental Baptism they desire.
Correct. Didn’t you ever wonder why they couldn’t get into heaven until Jesus Christ came and opened the doors for them? In my opinion, it is then they received that Baptism which they desired.
Agreed. Did you visit my other thread? Saved by faith and works, IN A MANNER OF SPEAKING
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=590736
Let me know what you think.
There was no one who was born again by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Spirit. No sir.
Of course Baptism of Desire is more than this. Baptism of Desire effects the same thing as Sacramental Baptism WITHOUT THE WATER. Simply living a righteous life is not the same thing. Only God can perfectly justify us. That is why, since the promulgation of the Gospel, the Sacraments have all but replaced the former process of justification.
Scripture is clear that there is more than one mode of justification. Justification by faith and works is the first mode. Which is the keeping of the Commandments. This is a “partial justification”.
The justification which is effected by Baptism, which is a work of God, is the washing of the soul of any effects of sin. This is a perfect work of God because God only does perfect work.
That is a red herring. As has been already mentioned, we are speaking of the justification of the adult convert.
*CHAPTER V
THE NECESSITY OF PREPARATION FOR JUSTIFICATION IN ADULTS, AND WHENCE IT PROCEEDS
It is furthermore declared that in adults the beginning of that justification must proceed from the predisposing grace of God through Jesus Christ, that is, from His vocation, whereby, without any merits on their part, they are called; that they who by sin had been cut off from God, may be disposed through His quickening and helping grace to convert themselves to their own justification by freely assenting to and cooperating with that grace; so that, while God touches the heart of man through the illumination of the Holy Ghost, man himself neither does absolutely nothing while receiving that inspiration, since he can also reject it, nor yet is he able by his own free will and without the grace of God to move himself to justice in His sight.
Hence, when it is said in the sacred writings:
Turn ye to me, and I will turn to you,[19] we are reminded of our liberty; and when we reply:
Convert us, O Lord, to thee, and we shall be converted,[20] we confess that we need the grace of God.*
And the fact remains, unless the person begins to live according to the Commandments, God won’t justify that person.
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Nope. We are justified by faith apart from works in the Sacraments. IF we have begun the process of justification by faith and works, keeping the Commandments, FIRST.
Have you ever heard of RCIA? That is the living example of the beginning of the process of justification by faith and works, in preparation for the instantaneous justification by faith APART FROM WORKS in the Sacrament of Baptism, which is God’s work.
Did I say otherwise?
Did I say otherwise?
By the grace of God, those who keep the Commandments are saved. Because neither faith, nor works merit the grace of justification. It is by God’s mercy we are saved in the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).
Sincerely,
De Maria
H
huskerfanbb
Guest
Let me preface this by saying that the few times I’ve been on this forum I’ve really enjoyed it. I have great respect for the Catholic Church–even when I don’t always agree with its teachings.
This topic, of course, is probably THE fundamental difference between Catholicism and Lutheranism (of which I belong).
The problem with self-justification (justification by the law or “works”) is this. How “good” is “good enough”? Do people have to be Mother Theresa good, or just a step above pedophiles and serial killers? Does one truly have to sell all their possessions and give to the poor, and is everyone who does no do so condemned?
The short answer is–yes. You have to be Mother Theresa good (actually, not even she is "good enough). Yes, you have to sell all your possessions and give to the poor–or you are condemned to hell. You are breaking the second greatest commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.
For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death.
There is no way we can justify ourselves by our works. We simply cannot do enough. We are incapable of meeting God’s standard.
Now, I would fully agree with James in “Faith without works is dead”–but that isn’t to say we are justified by works. What that is saying is that if our faith does not show to other people by our deeds–then we don’t have a living faith–but the end result is the same, we are justified by faith and not our works. Our works are a manifestation of that faith.
This topic, of course, is probably THE fundamental difference between Catholicism and Lutheranism (of which I belong).
The problem with self-justification (justification by the law or “works”) is this. How “good” is “good enough”? Do people have to be Mother Theresa good, or just a step above pedophiles and serial killers? Does one truly have to sell all their possessions and give to the poor, and is everyone who does no do so condemned?
The short answer is–yes. You have to be Mother Theresa good (actually, not even she is "good enough). Yes, you have to sell all your possessions and give to the poor–or you are condemned to hell. You are breaking the second greatest commandment to love your neighbor as yourself.
For ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death.
There is no way we can justify ourselves by our works. We simply cannot do enough. We are incapable of meeting God’s standard.
Now, I would fully agree with James in “Faith without works is dead”–but that isn’t to say we are justified by works. What that is saying is that if our faith does not show to other people by our deeds–then we don’t have a living faith–but the end result is the same, we are justified by faith and not our works. Our works are a manifestation of that faith.
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Frankk
Guest
Perhaps the problem would come more clearly into focus if we consider how the idea came into existence. Luther, commenting on a challenge said,
“You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word ‘alone’ is not in the text of Paul. If your Papist makes such an unnecessary row about the word ‘alone’ say right out to him: ‘Dr Martin Luther will have it so’ and say: ‘Papists and asses are one and the same thing.’ I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin and Greek text, and it was not necessary for the Papists to teach me that.”
Quoted in John L. Stoddard’s ‘Rebuilding a Lost Faith’. (Rockford, IL:TAN Books, 1990), 137
So nothing to do with Sacred Scripture or theology and everything to do with Luther’s own will - and arrogance.
“You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word ‘alone’ is not in the text of Paul. If your Papist makes such an unnecessary row about the word ‘alone’ say right out to him: ‘Dr Martin Luther will have it so’ and say: ‘Papists and asses are one and the same thing.’ I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well the word ‘alone’ is not in the Latin and Greek text, and it was not necessary for the Papists to teach me that.”
Quoted in John L. Stoddard’s ‘Rebuilding a Lost Faith’. (Rockford, IL:TAN Books, 1990), 137
So nothing to do with Sacred Scripture or theology and everything to do with Luther’s own will - and arrogance.
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De_Maria
Guest
Hi! Thanks for posting. Just so happens, I just came back from North Platte where I stayed at the Husker Inn for two days. Anyway, I hope we can have a mutually beneficial dialogue.
I agree. That’s why I feel it is so important that we get it right.
The problem with that answer is “Who is the judge? You or God?”
Was King David saved? Adulterer.
Was Moses saved? Murderer.
Was King Solomon saved? Polygamist.
The Catholic answer is, “no one is good enough”.
Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
They have to repent of their sins and live a life of good works:
Romans 2
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
That is what the Sacrament of forgiveness is for. That we may repent of our sins and turn to God. Do you not believe that God forgives sins?
That verse is about those who have rejected God. They have all sinned. But St. Paul did not contradict himself.
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
God justifies those who have done the works of the Law:
Romans 2:13
King James Version (KJV)
13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
That simple statement, reminds me of RCIA. Converts to the Church are taught to keep the Commandments and then to request Baptism.
Doers of the Law shall be justified.
There were no chapters back when the Scriptures were written. Therefore, it is in this same stream of thought, that St. Paul continues and says that:
Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
The CCC says:
1216 "This bath is called enlightenment,…It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; …
In the Sacraments, all we bring is our faith. Therefore the Church says:
1127 Celebrated worthily in faith, the sacraments confer the grace that they signify…
That’s not what Our Lord said:
Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Who said we are justified by works alone?
Scripture says we are not justified by faith “alone”.
St. James says we are justified by works and not by faith “only” (James 2:24). Read that carefully, the phrase “not by faith only” means that faith is the basis of justification and that works are in addition to faith. He has just said:
22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Therefore, the Catholic Church teaches justification by faith AND WORKS. Because without works, faith is not perfect and not salvific:
14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
So, in order to smooth out the sayings of St. Paul and the teachings of St. James, we can see that in order to be justified, one must first keep the Law. Which Law? The Ten Commandments. Jesus Christ got rid of the ordinances. But the Ten Commandments remain the basis of moral teaching.
Showing our faith to other people is besides the point. Although it is nice. The fact is that God sees our hearts. So, even many people who have been condemned EVEN BY SAINTS. God has found them righteous.
John 16:2King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
Sincerely,
De Maria
D
De_Maria
Guest
True. But with all due respect, the teaching is hard to understand:
2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
And Luther fulfilled the prophecy.
However, in my opinion, even Catholics who claim that St. Paul didn’t mean “faith without works” are in error. He meant a faith that is at rest from works. A faith that is recharging.
St. Paul was simply teaching two major doctrines of Catholic Teaching in minute detail.
First:
He taught that we are not justified by faith or works at all:
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
To say we are saved by faith and works is a manner of speaking. Only those who keep the Commandments will be justified. Not by their faith and works. By God.
God will not justify anyone who does not keep the Commandments because:
1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Second: This is especially clear in the Sacraments.
Titus 3:5
King James Version (KJV)
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
The CCC says:
1216 "This bath is called enlightenment,…It is called gift because it is conferred on those who bring nothing of their own; …
Sincerely,
De Maria
G
guitar_mike
Guest
The Faith Vs. Works debate has been a divisive point since the time of Martin Luther. I do not believe that you can have one without the other. A common protestant argument for faith alone is is Ephesians 2: 8 & 9 ** 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. **
many who quote this scripture to defend the “Faith alone stance” do not know the next verse 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. The bible says that faith without works is dead…I believe that works without faith is just as dead. Our faith helps us to do the work set before us. If you do not have something you cant give it away. You have to have the faith in order to share the faith.
May you find the answers you are seeking…keep the faith…May the Lord be with you always.
many who quote this scripture to defend the “Faith alone stance” do not know the next verse 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. The bible says that faith without works is dead…I believe that works without faith is just as dead. Our faith helps us to do the work set before us. If you do not have something you cant give it away. You have to have the faith in order to share the faith.
May you find the answers you are seeking…keep the faith…May the Lord be with you always.
D
De_Maria
Guest
I agree. I believe that supports my stance completely. The Sacraments are God’s work. Especially Baptism, wherein we are recreated by God. His workmanship. During the Sacraments, we rest of our works and come to God with an attitude of faith. Not faith alone, because prior to Baptism we prepared for it by studying to be approved:
2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Therefore, when St. Paul says, “justified apart from works”, he is referring directly to the Sacraments of the Catholic Church.
As usual, Catholic Teaching is both/and.
We are justified by faith and works during our everyday life of virtue. It is otherwise known as the Purgative way.
We are justified by faith apart from works in the Sacraments.
Both modes of justification work together to lead us to union with God.
Sincerely,
De Maria
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