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estesbob
Guest
There is no difference.
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estesbob
Guest
I am sorry to hear that-you and the child you lost will be in my prayers.
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marietta
Guest
estesbob:
" . . .the child you lost . . . "
So now it’s the child I “lost” and not the child I “killed”?
marietta
" . . .the child you lost . . . "
So now it’s the child I “lost” and not the child I “killed”?
marietta
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estesbob
Guest
The child is dead either way, correct?
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catharina
Guest
Really, it’s no surprise if a man who is paid to kill babies decides to “protect” his identity by assaulting an innocent bystander. I mean - it FITS, doesn’t it?
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allhers
Guest
Actually I call it a man was taking pictures at an abortion mill and took some of a so called “Doctor”, and the reason he was probably doing it is because of what I’ve said in earlier posts about the whole situation. People have been put in jail because they were associated with that place in some way, including the lady who managed it for pretending to be a Doctor.
See? It says so right here in the article:
On Saturday, Aug. 2, Tim Nissen, 31, a frequent sidewalk counselor at the Clinica Medica Para La Mujer in Santa Ana, showed up with a camera to find out who was going to be performing abortions that day. Nissen had been tipped off by a contact that Dr. Nolan Jones, the usual abortionist, would not be in that day. Nissen and other pro-lifers have been watching the clinic closely since the arrest last year of its manager, Bertha Bugarin, who is facing trial for allegedly posing as a doctor and performing abortions. Nissen and other pro-lifers were concerned that unlicensed or suspended doctors may be working in the clinic.
calcatholic.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?id=23d25421-86db-4a6b-8a53-9385da46e187
So, its no surprise to me (and it ought not to be to anyone, including you), that someone would actually be trying to make sure that at the very least, the women who enter there are with a real Doctor and not someone posing as one. Or are you in favor of people pretending to be someone that they aren’t also?
See, what you don’t seem to understand is that it is good to us when those places are shut down for their illegal actions. As they should be.
Also, like I said in an earlier post, if the man who was getting his picture taken would have prayed instead of letting his anger get the best of him he probably would have just driven away.
Since he didn’t, but instead did harm to another human being (big surprise there, huh?), and since the guy taking the pictures was within his legal right to do so, for whatever reason he did it, (especially since he checked with a policeman first), the one who got angry and acted out is the one who got sited, not the photographer. Pretty simple really.
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marietta
Guest
The fetus was removed through vacuum aspiration. Child? Baby? Newborn? Gift of life? A blessing from Above? To me it was none of these things. It did not represent family and it was not a product of a loving relationship.
That I might have a 39-year-old son or daughter today if I had made a different choice - to be honest, that fact does not move me. I was a child making a decision in a vacuum and remorse never entered the picture. It is pointless to live in the “what if”. Academically it is of some interest, but I do not suffer. Only a dim recollection of fear, anger and action from a time long gone can be found in my heart and soul, and that isn’t very clear anymore. I will not pretend that I grieve because I don’t. I confessed the abortion, did my penance and moved on.
Why did I confess it? Although I didn’t have all the facts regarding conception, I did know that I had done something wrong. The way I knew was not because my relationship with God told me that I had committed a sin, but because my parents would have seen this act as just the final screw-up from an unmanageable kid. My confession was contrite and genuinely open, but I don’t believe I completely understood what had transpired. If I ever considered the fetus to be a baby, then that must have been its undoing, because I had so little regard for life, especially my own.
This is one reason I am pro-education when it comes to sexuality. But as the Catholic Church denies reproductive freedom as I understand it, this is yet another chapter of Catholicism that I have read, considered, and closed.
marietta
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marietta
Guest
I read the article. I have a different take on it, that’s all. I do not believe that the photographer’s motives were as you suggest, to “make sure that at the very least, the women who enter there are with a real Doctor and not someone posing as one.” He was there to photograph the doctor who was there that specific day, so there is a specific timeline to his actions. How were photographs going to convince women entering the clinic *that day *that the doctor had had his license suspended or revoked? If this were a digital camera, he could have shown them the shots he was taking through the viewfinder, but even that would not be convincing without some sort of proof. Polaroids would have been useless for the same reason. If he were using a camera which required film to be developed, he could not have shown the women there on that day, with that doctor, *anything. * Now, if he had done some real homework and printed up flyers with the doctor’s picture on them and a synopsis of his evil deeds, thoroughly documented and easily checked, then I might agree that he was trying to be helpful to the patients.
I just don’t buy it.
marietta
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catharina
Guest
sooooo …
you ARE Catholic? you were Catholic?
you’re Anglican?
your profile says N/A.
If you were once Catholic and have lost your faith, that too can result form abortion.
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allhers
Guest
We are concerned for those women everyday, not just one day.
However, one day, all will be revealed. I would think that someone in your position would be more willing to admit that the taking of a life is a horrible thing to do to anyone. I will pray for your conversion and hope that one day, you too will see the evil that has resulted from that once upon a time, and that you will come to know that real repentance requires a change of heart, mind, soul and action, not just to move on as though nothing had ever happened.
I am glad that you at least realized that what you did was wrong and confessed it. That must have been a terrible time in your life and if you ever do find yourself in a place where you need to heal from it instead of denying it, many people are here for you. You need only to check into the many resources out there for your complete healing when that time comes.
One thing that touched me was when I once read about Norma McCovey, of Roe vrs. Wade, (you probably have heard that she is now a Catholic.) One day a man was in a Catholic Church at the same time as she was, she was kneeling in front of a statue of the Blessed Mother, and her heart wrenching sobs went on for quite awhile. When the man saw a Priest enter the Church, he ran up to him and advised him that the woman was in immediate need of his help, that she had been crying there for quite some time. The Priest explained to him who she was and that the good woman did that many times, many days and that she had come to accept the horrible reality of what she had done, that she did have recourse to many Priest’s and lots of help and that she had asked forgivness of God for what she had done, and that she was asking the Blessed Mother for help to get through that time in her life.
When the reality of the evil hits you, know that many are praying for you and that God will be there to help you too and His dear Blessed Mother will pray for you through it all. I’m sure she already is.
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RachelsAlumni
Guest
About 10 years after my abortion, which I had never grieved, I had another pregnancy (out-of-wedlock) that resulted in a miscarriage at about 12 weeks. I followed up with a D&C at the advice of my doctor.
The following day when using the bathroom I found my baby’s foot in my discharge. It was a perfectly formed miniature little foot. I kept that foot as a precious remnant of all that was left of my child, a reminder of her humanity. It enabled me to grieve over the loss of my child.
This precious remnant also helped me to realize that my abortion 10 years earlier, also at around the same gestation, was not just a blob of tissue, or the ‘products of conception’. He was a child, a baby, at his early stage of development but he had a foot and hands and heart.
I went to a book I had of in utero photographs to see what my 12 week gestation baby looked like:
http://www.kittymom.net/jessica/images/fetus12weeks.jpg
Understanding finally that the child I aborted wasn’t just a blob of tissue as I had been told, but a living human child in it’s early stages of development helped me to finally understand and grieve his loss, even though that was my choice at the time. A choice I might not have made if I had embraced the truth of this child’s existence rather than deny that he was even a living human being.
I went from being pro-choice to pro-life the moment I saw that little foot. That little foot was the light that broke through years of my living in denial and darkness.
It still took years before I returned to the Catholic Church because I had mistakenly thought abortion was an unforgiveable sin. After returning to the Church I found Rachel’s Hope;Post Abortion Healing & Reconciliation for Catholic (and Catholic friendly) Women.
At the retreat I learned about Post-Abortion Stress Syndrome. This explained alot about my past; my divorce (a high percentage of marriages fail after an abortion), my self-hatred, suicidal thoughts, drug & alcohol abuse, promiscuity, and anniversary (of the abortion) reactions. These are all common of women who have had abortions.
Prior to finding my child’s foot I would not describe myself as suffering or having regrets. I never associated the abortion with the resulting suicidal thoughts even though the suicidal thoughts began immediately afterwards. I associated them with an adversarial divorce and stress of raising my 2 children in a single parent home. I didn’t associate it with my drinking or abusing drugs or promiscuity either. I was clearly ‘acting out’ but didn’t know why. I had alot of anger & self hatred & confusion. It wasn’t until I could put the pieces of the puzzle together than it all made sense for me.
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rlg94086
Guest
Thank you for that witness RachelsAlumni. I think many women who have an abortion are ill-informed. If they truly realized what they were doing, they wouldn’t do it. The pro-choice enthusiasts have to dehumanize the unborn child in order to justify the act of abortion. I hope God continues to use you to help educate others, so you can save children and their mothers.
Someone mentioned a gray area between being pro-choice and pro-abortion, but there really isn’t one. Once you realize that the “clump of tissue” is a growing human being, then having the “choice” to kill that innocent unborn human is no different than having the “choice” to kill an innocent adult human. It’s not a choice that any person should be allowed to make.
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marietta
Guest
RachelsAlumni:
My experience was different. The drinking and drugging came about a good five years before the pregnancy. Clearly there were problems. My mother put me in therapy, took me to Alateen (for children of alcoholics), and tried to keep a close eye on me, but she just couldn’t keep up with my older brother and me and, later, my younger brother - all of us “acted out” long before we all ran into trouble with the law or any of that.
I, too, suffered miscarriages (two) after the abortion. A portion of one expulsion I caught in my hands over a toilet. I examined it as closely as I could under the circumstances (a public bathroom, ninety seconds to showtime, as I was performing in front of 2,500 people that night) - and the rest of the expulsion I experienced onstage. Nobody knew. I was busy with chemical ingestion, so I didn’t really give a damn. I was surprised, but not alarmed. No body parts. No epiphany.
I can’t say whether I would have pursued an abortion after experiencing my miscarriages, but my guess is that I would have. I still had seven hard-living years ahead of me, through psychedelics, cocaine, quaaludes, uppers, downers, opium, heroin, and my trusty sidekick, alcohol. When one doesn’t feel anything, one cannot be moved to tears.
I am sober 24 years now, but the life I have lead has brought me to a place of surrender. Not surrender in the way you and allhers might hope. What I want today is quiet, only business relationships (I have been abstinent for over 10 years), a little shack to live in, my cat and maybe a new dog. I have a decent job and I can simulate congeniality well within the walls of the hospital, but I truly don’t like the company of other people. Rainy days are the best for me; I despise sunshine. I do not appreciate the antics of other people’s children - they bore me. I have suffered from bi-polar disorder all my life and have been medicated for almost 20 years. When I am off medication I become homicidal. Please don’t think this is an exaggeration. This is the way God made me. I am managing the best way I know how.
God is in my life, but not on the terms outlined by the Roman Catholic Church. I have been called a Cafeteria Catholic, but I’ve certainly been called a lot worse, even here. God and I have a private understanding, since He is the only one who gets me. I am growing increasingly weary of explaining myself.
Glad you found you way to where you need to be. That’s just not where I’m headed.
marietta
My experience was different. The drinking and drugging came about a good five years before the pregnancy. Clearly there were problems. My mother put me in therapy, took me to Alateen (for children of alcoholics), and tried to keep a close eye on me, but she just couldn’t keep up with my older brother and me and, later, my younger brother - all of us “acted out” long before we all ran into trouble with the law or any of that.
I, too, suffered miscarriages (two) after the abortion. A portion of one expulsion I caught in my hands over a toilet. I examined it as closely as I could under the circumstances (a public bathroom, ninety seconds to showtime, as I was performing in front of 2,500 people that night) - and the rest of the expulsion I experienced onstage. Nobody knew. I was busy with chemical ingestion, so I didn’t really give a damn. I was surprised, but not alarmed. No body parts. No epiphany.
I can’t say whether I would have pursued an abortion after experiencing my miscarriages, but my guess is that I would have. I still had seven hard-living years ahead of me, through psychedelics, cocaine, quaaludes, uppers, downers, opium, heroin, and my trusty sidekick, alcohol. When one doesn’t feel anything, one cannot be moved to tears.
I am sober 24 years now, but the life I have lead has brought me to a place of surrender. Not surrender in the way you and allhers might hope. What I want today is quiet, only business relationships (I have been abstinent for over 10 years), a little shack to live in, my cat and maybe a new dog. I have a decent job and I can simulate congeniality well within the walls of the hospital, but I truly don’t like the company of other people. Rainy days are the best for me; I despise sunshine. I do not appreciate the antics of other people’s children - they bore me. I have suffered from bi-polar disorder all my life and have been medicated for almost 20 years. When I am off medication I become homicidal. Please don’t think this is an exaggeration. This is the way God made me. I am managing the best way I know how.
God is in my life, but not on the terms outlined by the Roman Catholic Church. I have been called a Cafeteria Catholic, but I’ve certainly been called a lot worse, even here. God and I have a private understanding, since He is the only one who gets me. I am growing increasingly weary of explaining myself.
Glad you found you way to where you need to be. That’s just not where I’m headed.
marietta
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rlg94086
Guest
Marietta,
It sounds like you have been through a lot in your life…much of it unpleasant. I hope things go better for the rest of your time on earth and that you make it to heaven through the grace of God. I will pray that he soften your heart, as it doesn’t sound like there is a lot of neighborly love there right now, and that is one of the great commandments.
Matthew 22:
I pray we all learn to live our lives that way.
R
RachelsAlumni
Guest
Interesting how similar yet different our lives are. I also have been celibate for several years. I also live in a tiny little shack (9’ x 25’) with my miniature schnauzer. I have very few friends, am cordial & friendly but pretty much stick to immediate family as I have difficulty forming friendships.
We differ in that I am not an alcoholic, but I have family members who are. I also don’t struggle with the mental issues you do, but also have family members who do. I do think I may have OCD. I do enjoy my grandchild and children in general. I think it may be because I already had 2 children prior to my abortion. I also may differ from you in my relationship to the Catholic Church only in that I may be in a different part of that journey, but I may not have as close a relationship with God.
I spent most of my adult life away from the Church. The way I look back on it now is best reflected in the parable of the sower.
As a child and a young teen I was the rocky soil. The seed feel and sprang up but the soil was shallow and when the sun came up the plants were scorched. How do you fertilize soil to make it rich? with manure. My life, apart from Christ, was manure. This manure fertilized and made the soil rich so that by the time my grandson was born I had ears to hear God’s call later in life.
The scripture that I hold dearest to my heart is this:
So much has been forgiven me. So much that I can identify with this woman who washed the feet of Jesus with her tears, and dried his feet with her hair. The woman who to the pharisess of our world is called a sinner “what manner of woman this is that toucheth him, that she is a sinner.” I can identify with people who are condemned as sinners and I hold no illusions of self righteousness.
I know much has been forgiven me and my debt is great, but I also know that by the very fact that my debt is so great that I love Him all the more and no one can ever take that from me.
I can now look back on my past on all the years of turmoil and even to this day when I struggle with turmoil & hardships, and carrying my cross as a Felix Culpa, “O happy fault that merited such and so great a Redeemer.”
Glad also you found your way to where you need to be and I have every confidence that God’s grace will carry you in His bosom.
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mapleoak
Guest
Did you know that you are being video taped every time you fill your car up with gas?
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mapleoak
Guest
Now, go look up the word offspring.
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mapleoak
Guest
Why thank you!
Or equate a fertilized unimplanted EGG with a baby or an adult. Maybe the DNA is next?Do you deny that a fertilized unimplanted EGG has its own unique DNA?
In addition most responsible communities prohibit assault upon those who are partaking in perfectly legal activity. An example of a perfectly legal activity is taking photographs of things readily seen with the naked eye.
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mapleoak
Guest
Because you view it as none of the above does not make it so.
This would likewise apply to people who are already born (children, teenagers, adults, elderly) who were “not a product of loving relationship”. Do you consider them to be disposable as well because of their parent(s) wrongdoings?
But the fact is you didn’t “might” have a son or daughter. You “had” one, and his mortal body is no more, though his immortal soul lives on, and will do so forever.
As much as you probably hate when I say things like this, you and your unborn child are in my prayers.
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estesbob
Guest
This is the best thing to come out of this thread.A child dead and forgotten for 40 years is now being prayed for.Because you view it as none of the above does not make it so.
This would likewise apply to people who are already born (children, teenagers, adults, elderly) who were “not a product of loving relationship”. Do you consider them to be disposable as well because of their parent(s) wrongdoings?
But the fact is you didn’t “might” have a son or daughter. You “had” one, and his mortal body is no more, though his immortal soul lives on, and will do so forever.
As much as you probably hate when I say things like this, you and your unborn child are in my prayers.
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