He "knew her not, until..."?

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I have read the arguments on the perpetual virginity of Mary. I realize it’s a longstanding belief of the church, and was even held by the reformers.

A common objection is Matthew 1:25 which says, “He had no relations with her until she bore a son”. I’m trying to think of another sentence in which until is used in the same way, where it doesn’t imply that whatever is being spoken of eventually happened. Can anyone provide a comparable sentence?

Or, if you can’t think of a comparable sentence using until, can you share with me how this verse doesn’t imply that Mary and Joseph had relations after the birth of Jesus. I earnestly want to accept the Marian dogmas, but I’m struggling. Thank for you any insight you can provide.
 
Jennifer132 said:
I have read the arguments on the perpetual virginity of Mary. I realize it’s a longstanding belief of the church, and was even held by the reformers.

A common objection is Matthew 1:25 which says, “He had no relations with her until she bore a son”. I’m trying to think of another sentence in which until is used in the same way, where it doesn’t imply that whatever is being spoken of eventually happened. Can anyone provide a comparable sentence?

Or, if you can’t think of a comparable sentence using until, can you share with me how this verse doesn’t imply that Mary and Joseph had relations after the birth of Jesus. I earnestly want to accept the Marian dogmas, but I’m struggling. Thank for you any insight you can provide.
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There is one about israel doing something “until” they got somwhere. It was still being done at the new location…

Sorry that sucks but I figure I might jog the mind of a bible quoter as to where it is.
 
Okay I felt bad about the poor ans so I stepped it up a notch:

2 Samuel 6:23: And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child to (until) the day of her death. (Does this mean she had children after she died?)
1 Timothy 4:13: Until I come, attend to the public reading of scripture, to preaching, to teaching. (Does this mean Timothy should stop teaching after Paul comes?)
1 Corinthians 15:25: For he (Christ) must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. (Does this mean Christ’s reign will end? By no means! Luke 1:33 says, “he will reign over the house of Jacob forever and of his kingdom there shall be no end.”)

From:

catholic.com/magazine/articles/the-case-for-marys-perpetual-virginity
 
Great examples provided above. Here’s a word-search that turned up 605 hits for “until” in the NRSV. You’ll notice that some carry the meaning that we usually understand today, and some don’t. (In Exodus 7, for example, Pharaoh didn’t listen “until”…and he kept on not listening.)

biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=until&qs_version=NRSVCE

Deut 34:6 is another example. Some translations use “until this day”, but the NRSV uses “to this day”, in reference to the fact that no one knows exactly where Moses is buried.

Anyway, some uses of “until” mean what we immediately think they mean, some do not. How do we know for sure which use was intended in Matthew? We have Christ’s Church to tell us, via the Sacred Tradition which was handed down by Christ and the Apostles and entrusted to Christ’s Church.
We also have the testament of history. EVERY major contender during and after the Reformation, up until the 19th century or so either believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity, or in John Calvin’s case, at least argued vehemently that MT 1:25 was NOT to be misunderstood as saying that Mary ever had relations with Joseph.
The denial of Mary’s perpetual virginity is a recent doctrine of man.

daves-ahumbleservant.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-reformers-and-their-catholic-beliefs.html
 
Jennifer132 said:
I have read the arguments on the perpetual virginity of Mary. I realize it’s a longstanding belief of the church, and was even held by the reformers.

A common objection is Matthew 1:25 which says, “He had no relations with her until she bore a son”. I’m trying to think of another sentence in which until is used in the same way, where it doesn’t imply that whatever is being spoken of eventually happened. Can anyone provide a comparable sentence?

Or, if you can’t think of a comparable sentence using until, can you share with me how this verse doesn’t imply that Mary and Joseph had relations after the birth of Jesus. I earnestly want to accept the Marian dogmas, but I’m struggling. Thank for you any insight you can provide.
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Give them John Chrysostom’s take on it.
 
But Philip was found at Azotus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:40)

If a change is always implied by the word until or til, then that would mean Philip stopped preaching the gospel once he came to Caesarea. However, later, in Acts 21:8 he is still referred to as “Philip the evangelist.”
 
Todd977 said:
But Philip was found at Azotus, and passing on he preached the gospel to all the towns till he came to Caesarea. (Acts 8:40)

If a change is always implied by the word until or til, then that would mean Philip stopped preaching the gospel once he came to Caesarea. However, later, in Acts 21:8 he is still referred to as “Philip the evangelist.”
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You all have answered his question very well, I wish that could put an end to those who deny Mary’s perpetual Virginity. That is proof of the mistake of taking something out of context and making it what we want it to be. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
You all have answered his question very well, I wish that could put an end to those who deny Mary’s perpetual Virginity. That is proof of the mistake of taking something out of context and making it what we want it to be. God Bless, Memaw
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I don’t really think this is a case of people taking things out of context. Usually, I’d agree with you, but I think this one really is a problem of language rather than actively ignoring context. In English today, the word “until” is only used to denote a fixed period of time preceding an event which then happens. We never use “until” unless we mean that it happened after that point. It’s only natural that people today would read that passage and register the "until’ as implying that it happened afterwards, so we can’t really blame them for that.

What we can blame them for is refusing to acknowledge historical usage of the word once it’s been presented to them, especially when we can present other texts in the Bible which corroborate that usage.
 
There is an example that people say even in this day.

The man loved his wife til the day she died.

This is an example I have heard. We know we go on loving even after our loved ones are gone.
 
Jennifer132 said:
I have read the arguments on the perpetual virginity of Mary. I realize it’s a longstanding belief of the church, and was even held by the reformers.

A common objection is Matthew 1:25 which says, “He had no relations with her until she bore a son”. I’m trying to think of another sentence in which until is used in the same way, where it doesn’t imply that whatever is being spoken of eventually happened. Can anyone provide a comparable sentence?

Or, if you can’t think of a comparable sentence using until, can you share with me how this verse doesn’t imply that Mary and Joseph had relations after the birth of Jesus. I earnestly want to accept the Marian dogmas, but I’m struggling. Thank for you any insight you can provide.
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Matthew 1:25 – “Until”

Genesis 8:7
The raven “did not return TILL the waters were dried up…” Did the raven ever return?

Deuteronomy 34:6 (Knox)
No one knew the location of his grave “until this present day” But we know that no one has known it since that day either.

1 Maccabees 5:54
“…not one of them was slain TILL they had returned in peace.” Were Judas Maccabeus and his troops killed when they returned?

Luke 1:80
“And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.” The Greek word translated “until” in this passage is heos, the same word used in Matthew 1:25. The child spoken of is John the Baptist who, after as well as before he appeared in public, resided in the desert (cf. Matt. 3:1, Mark 1:3,4; Luke 3:2).

Romans 8:22
“…the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together UNTIL now.” Is it still groaning?

1 Corinthians 15:25
“For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet.” After all enemies are put away, will Christ be reigning?

Ephesians 4:12-13
“…for the equipping…for the work of ministry… for the edifying…TILL we all come to the unity of the faith…” Once we become unified, will equipping, ministry, and edification still be necessary?

Hebrews 1:13
To which of the angels did God ever say, ‘Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet’”? After that time, the angels (or Jesus) could get up again?

1 Timothy 4:13
“Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.” After I arrive you won’t need to do any of those things?

1 Timothy 6:14
“…that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing…” When Jesus comes back, we should disobey these commandments?

Revelation 2:25-26
“But hold fast what you have TILL I come. And he who overcomes and keeps My works UNTIL the end, to him I will give power…” Should we stop holding fast and stop obeying when Jesus returns?
 
ProdglArchitect said:
I don’t really think this is a case of people taking things out of context. Usually, I’d agree with you, but I think this one really is a problem of language rather than actively ignoring context. In English today, the word “until” is only used to denote a fixed period of time preceding an event which then happens. We never use “until” unless we mean that it happened after that point. It’s only natural that people today would read that passage and register the "until’ as implying that it happened afterwards, so we can’t really blame them for that.

What we can blame them for is refusing to acknowledge historical usage of the word once it’s been presented to them, especially when we can present other texts in the Bible which corroborate that usage.
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Yes but many use this misunderstanding to support bad theology, based on their need to deny Mary’s sinlessness, which is what they really can’t stand. Why they can’t stand it is the real issue, not biblical interpretation. The reason is simple–they don’t believe anyone can actually become holy. People who deny Mary’s privileges know that she is our model–the personification of what God wants us to be. But they don’t believe they can become truly holy. They are only carrying Luther’s and Calvin’s flawed theologies to their next logical step. For they both denied that we ordinary Christians can become holy. Luther claimed that holiness is only overlaid on us, and Calvin that only certain persons can become holy but they had nothing to do with it. In both cases, it’s central to the OSAS theology. That’s why they insist, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that Mary had to be a sinner and she had to have other children. Otherwise they could care less about her or what became of her.
 
Jennifer132 said:
I have read the arguments on the perpetual virginity of Mary. I realize it’s a longstanding belief of the church, and was even held by the reformers.

A common objection is Matthew 1:25 which says, “He had no relations with her until she bore a son”. I’m trying to think of another sentence in which until is used in the same way, where it doesn’t imply that whatever is being spoken of eventually happened. Can anyone provide a comparable sentence?

Or, if you can’t think of a comparable sentence using until, can you share with me how this verse doesn’t imply that Mary and Joseph had relations after the birth of Jesus. I earnestly want to accept the Marian dogmas, but I’m struggling. Thank for you any insight you can provide.
Click to expand...
It implies nothing. “Until” (heos) is simply a terminal marker of time. It implies nothing as to what happens afterward.

After all, Michal, daughter of Saul, had no children until the day of her death (again, “until” implies nothing about what followed; from this text alone, who knows what happened after Michal died?)
 
Della said:
Yes but many use this misunderstanding to support bad theology, based on their need to deny Mary’s sinlessness, which is what they really can’t stand.
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Oh, I agree, and we can totally fault them for that. I just meant that the language itself could be confusing today.
Why they can’t stand it is the real issue, not biblical interpretation. The reason is simple–they don’t believe anyone can actually become holy. People who deny Mary’s privileges know that she is our model–the personification of what God wants us to be. But they don’t believe they can become truly holy. They are only carrying Luther’s and Calvin’s flawed theologies to their next logical step. For they both denied that we ordinary Christians can become holy. Luther claimed that holiness is only overlaid on us, and Calvin that only certain persons can become holy but they had nothing to do with it. In both cases, it’s central to the OSAS theology. That’s why they insist, in spite of all evidence to the contrary, that Mary had to be a sinner and she had to have other children. Otherwise they could care less about her or what became of her.
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Yup. Luther thoroughly butchered the theology of holiness, and Protestants today suffer for it. I agree completely.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
I don’t really think this is a case of people taking things out of context. Usually, I’d agree with you, but I think this one really is a problem of language rather than actively ignoring context. In English today, the word “until” is only used to denote a fixed period of time preceding an event which then happens. We never use “until” unless we mean that it happened after that point. It’s only natural that people today would read that passage and register the "until’ as implying that it happened afterwards, so we can’t really blame them for that.

What we can blame them for is refusing to acknowledge historical usage of the word once it’s been presented to them, especially when we can present other texts in the Bible which corroborate that usage.
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I believe some are using the word “until” to try to deny her Perpetual Virginity as a deliberate slam against Catholic teaching. I have had many non-Catholics bring that up in a conversation just like they do ,“brothers” of Jesus, calling man father, worshiping Mary,. praying to dead people, calling us cannibals, etc, etc, and etc. They don’t believe you if you try to explain the language problem, or other parts of Scripture, because they don’t want to believe us. I usually end up asking them if they believe in the 8th Commandment,
Thou Shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor!" They are free to believe what they want but they cannot falsely tell us what we believe. God Bless, Memaw
 
Memaw said:
I believe some are using the word “until” to try to deny her Perpetual Virginity as a deliberate slam against Catholic teaching. I have had many non-Catholics bring that up in a conversation just like they do ,“brothers” of Jesus, calling man father, worshiping Mary,. praying to dead people, calling us cannibals, etc, etc, and etc. They don’t believe you if you try to explain the language problem because they don’t want to believe us. God Bless, Memaw
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Yup. I’ve had the same experiences. It’s sad really, that people are so willing to ignore reasonable arguments and well presented facts…
 
Matthew 1:25: Until she brought forth her firstborn son

The Catholic Church teaches that Mary remained a perpetual virgin and that Jesus did not have any brothers and sisters. Many non-Catholics doubt these claims, and they frequently cite Matthew 1:25 in support of their views that Mary and Joseph had normal sexual relations after they were married and that Jesus was only the first of many children that resulted from their union. Let’s examine this important verse more closely using two popular Protestant translations.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS. (KJV)

24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife.25 But he did not consummate their marriage until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. (NIV)

“Until”

In verse 25, the Greek heôs, “until,” does not necessarily contrast “before” to “after.” It means that up to a certain moment, something happened or not, without considering what happened after that moment. For example, the Greek text of the Septuagint says, in 2 Samuel 6:23, that “Mikal, daughter of Saul, had no children until (heôs) the days of her death.” This obviously does not suggest that she had children after her death. Matthew is interested in underlining that Jesus’ birth and conception were carried out without the intervention of any man.

Remove the word “until” from the verse, and you have the following:

“Joseph had no relations with her…she brought forth her firstborn”

Two simple statements. Protestants really disagree with the first of these two; therefore, the word “until” is the whole argument. Either Joseph held off “until” and then proceeded to have relations (the Protestant position) OR Joseph had no relations with her. Period. (the Catholic position).

Naturally, Protestants argue for a simple reading of the text, but Catholics counter that “until” doesn’t actually imply the cessation of past action (namely, holding off). Although things look intuitively obvious for the Protestant point of view, in actual fact, the Catholic position is not harmed at all by the word “until” because that word implies nothing…and other verses in scripture PROVE that point.

Genesis 8:7
The raven “did not return TILL the waters were dried up…”
Did the raven ever return?

Deuteronomy 34:6 (Knox)
No one knew the location of his grave “until this present day”
But we know that no one has known it since that day either.

Luke 1:80
“And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.” The Greek word translated “until” in this passage is heos, the same word used in Matthew 1:25. The child spoken of is John the Baptist who also lived in the desert after he appeared in public (cf. Matt. 3:1, Mark 1:3,4; Luke 3:2).

1 Timothy 6:14
“…that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing…”
May this commandment be disobeyed after Jesus returns?

Because “until” does not require a cessation of activity, Matthew 1:25 cannot be used to disprove the perpetual virginity of Mary.

“Firstborn”

Many non-Catholics assume that Mary had a second child because Jesus is referred to as her “firstborn son”. However, “firstborn” is merely a term applied to the first child that “opened the womb”. The term does not imply a “secondborn”. In ancient times, a woman who only had one child during the course of her lifetime still called that child the “firstborn”. Scripture also supports this understanding:

Numbers 3:40
And the LORD said unto Moses, Number all the firstborn of the males of the children of Israel from a month old and upward, and take the number of their names.

Note here that a child as young as one month old was called the “firstborn”. Given the length of the human gestation period, it is not possible for a month old infant to have a younger sibling. Thus, we see clearly that “firstborn” was a technical term that did not prove that additional children had been born.
 
ProdglArchitect said:
Oh, I agree, and we can totally fault them for that. I just meant that the language itself could be confusing today.
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That’s true. Any language, even English, can be confusing to those who speak it. I’m pointing out that many deliberately misunderstand because the alternative scares them. They simply can’t face the fact that their theology may be wrong because they are frightened of losing their salvation if they do doubt it. I was once one of them. For some it’s more than that, though, for some it is hatred that motivates them. Sad, no matter the motive, though.
Yup. Luther thoroughly butchered the theology of holiness, and Protestants today suffer for it. I agree completely.
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People want to believe his theology because it seems easy. Just accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and you are assured of heaven. That’s much simpler than attempting to be holy. They don’t understand that neither is purely our action, but needs the grace of God to achieve. They can be envious of Mary because they think she was just handed her holiness, and yet that’s what they want for themselves. It’s not true, of course, but it’s easier to slide along on what makes one comfortable that to face reality. Fear is usually the motivator for hanging onto misconceptions, not outright denial, although that does exist.
 
Thank you for making this so clear. The reference to John Chrysostom’s take on “he knew her not until” - made all the difference!
 
It’s important to remember that prepositions and adverbs can be among the most difficult parts of speech to translate from one language to another – the ways in which they’re used vary greatly, and as a result, it’s often the case that there’s no one-to-one translation possible.
Randy_Carson said:
1 Timothy 6:14
“…that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless UNTIL our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing…” When Jesus comes back, we should disobey these commandments?
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This is a good case in point. What’s rendered as “until” here isn’t even the same word as in “he knew her not, until…”! The word in 1 Tim 6:14 is mexri, whereas the word in (most of) the other examples is heos.

So, it can be pretty futile to assume that what we see in English translations – and read with our contemporary connotations – is what was intended in the original Greek and in that period of time, two millennia ago! 😉
 
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