He said that Latin was not helpful when he was leaving the Church

[GandalfTheWhite]

I was in a pub yesterday with some of my Catholic friends and we were discuss various things with a lot of Catholic things in it. Near us there was an older man sitting and sipping his beer. He was alone but seemed a lot interested in our conversation (which I realized only later on). Towards the end of our conversation he started talking to one of our friends - about Catholicism. Well, my friend is a convert and really passionate about Catholicism so they had an interesting conversation. The man seemed to be an Irish Catholic who however left Catholicism some time when he was a young boy. He seemed to be drawn into Catholicism but was complaining the way the Church was in the old days. That the catholic schools and even in the Church programs would educate people to what to believe but when they would ask question on why, problems would arise. He seemed to leave it when he went through the “rebellious state” and he couldn’t get answers. I think I can agree with this man at this point. In the older days the it seemed that the focus (and indeed the ways of education) was a bit different but even today the education of Catholics is far from excellent. But this is not the point why I’m posting this. One thing he said was something along these lines: "And above all the mass was in Latin! Imagine that, they spoke in a totally different language. I was still grasping English and that I was lost during the mass didn’t help the thing."

I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t even involved in that conversation but it struck me and got me thinking. I love Latin and I would love if it would become much more normative in the Latin Church because that’s our tradition (and we all know the reasons). But these comments make me think whether I’m really correct. This man was confessing the difficulties he experienced in the Church and was very honest about it. He wasn’t one of those liberal catholics who attack anything traditional.

What do you think? What would you say to such a person? What do you think about have something like what what Fr. Z described in one of his posts. A baby food mass (maybe in English) and the real stake (Latin)? What do you think about what some of the traditional Anglicans have (basically TLM in Old English).

It just got me thinking and I thought I would bring it up so I can clear my thoughts by reading other people’s viewpoints and maybe discussing this issue for a while.

 

[palmas85]

I was in a pub yesterday with some of my Catholic friends and we were discuss various things with a lot of Catholic things in it. Near us there was an older man sitting and sipping his beer. He was alone but seemed a lot interested in our conversation (which I realized only later on). Towards the end of our conversation he started talking to one of our friends - about Catholicism. Well, my friend is a convert and really passionate about Catholicism so they had an interesting conversation. The man seemed to be an Irish Catholic who however left Catholicism some time when he was a young boy. He seemed to be drawn into Catholicism but was complaining the way the Church was in the old days. That the catholic schools and even in the Church programs would educate people to what to believe but when they would ask question on why, problems would arise. He seemed to leave it when he went through the “rebellious state” and he couldn’t get answers. I think I can agree with this man at this point. In the older days the it seemed that the focus (and indeed the ways of education) was a bit different but even today the education of Catholics is far from excellent. But this is not the point why I’m posting this. One thing he said was something along these lines: "And above all the mass was in Latin! Imagine that, they spoke in a totally different language. I was still grasping English and that I was lost during the mass didn’t help the thing."

I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t even involved in that conversation but it struck me and got me thinking. I love Latin and I would love if it would become much more normative in the Latin Church because that’s our tradition (and we all know the reasons). But these comments make me think whether I’m really correct. This man was confessing the difficulties he experienced in the Church and was very honest about it. He wasn’t one of those liberal catholics who attack anything traditional.

What do you think? What would you say to such a person? What do you think about have something like what what Fr. Z described in one of his posts. A baby food mass (maybe in English) and the real stake (Latin)? What do you think about what some of the traditional Anglicans have (basically TLM in Old English).

It just got me thinking and I thought I would bring it up so I can clear my thoughts by reading other people’s viewpoints and maybe discussing this issue for a while.

There were those and still are those who preferred the Pauline Rite to the Traditional. In the instant case however, it appears the man left the Church anyway, I somehow doubt that Latin was the problem. Lets remember they pretty much stopped using Latin around 1970 anyway.

I would ask what the real reason was and not what the excuse is or was.

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

I didn’t say anything because I wasn’t even involved in that conversation but it struck me and got me thinking. I love Latin and I would love if it would become much more normative in the Latin Church because that’s our tradition (and we all know the reasons). But these comments make me think whether I’m really correct. This man was confessing the difficulties he experienced in the Church and was very honest about it. He wasn’t one of those liberal catholics who attack anything traditional…

It just got me thinking and I thought I would bring it up so I can clear my thoughts by reading other people’s viewpoints and maybe discussing this issue for a while.

This is what I think. I think this person was tempted to doubt the faith. Unortunately at the time, I don’t think he was given the guidance that he needed. One thing led to another and he ended by leaving the Church.

After one leaves the Church they are usually anxious to hear bad things about the Church because it justifies them in their actions - in confirms them in what they did.

After leaving the Church, I think he willingly listened to Protestant and other anti-Catholic complaints about the Church and absorbed them. How much of what he now says is due to his actual experience and how much has he absorbed by anti-Catholic arguments? There is usually a mixture of the two after many years away from the Church. Therefore, I wouldn’t give any weight to what he said about the Latin… but that’s just me. Instead, I would have given him a good answer for why the Church has the Mass in Latin. A good answer that really makes sense will do more good than leading him to believe that his complaint is justified.

A person in this position usually requires encouragement to move him back in the right direction. I hope you and your friends tried to answer his questions and gently encourage him to come back. From what you wrote I get the impression that the guy was not hostile towards the Church. Those are the kind that need to be dealt with by answering their questions gently and encouraging them.

I’m curious, how did it end?

 

[FightingFat]

Haven’t you reached the conclusion that VII did? Hasn’t there always been a provision for the mass in Latin if it was desired?

 

[Pax_et_Caritas]

Haven’t you reached the conclusion that VII did?

Do you mean that the Mass should remain in Latin? That is what Vatican II taught.

 

[the_phoenix]

My mother is a conservative Catholic who has spent her life defending the Pope and the teachings of the Church … and she prefers the Mass in English because it’s easier for her to understand that way.

I’m a conservative Catholic trying to follow in my mother’s footsteps, and I prefer the Mass in Latin, because I seem to “get” the Mass better in this language by somehow going beyond the language.

Pope Benedict XVI provides for the two forms of the one Mass, the Ordinary Form in English, the Extraordinary Form in Latin. Since I support the Pope, I support both forms of the Mass being available, according to my personal motto:

Latin for those who want it,
English for those who want it,
Reverence for all.

My mother and I are two different people, that’s all, and we can certainly respect each other’s differences.

~~ the phoenix

 

[Cat]

"Latin for those who want it,
English for those who want it,
Reverence for all. "

The Phoenix, I really, really like this!

I am one of those people who really doesn’t like listening to a foreign language. I have a difficult time “translating” the language back into my own language with or without a printed guide.

I respect those who prefer Latin Mass and music. I think that the Catholic Church should strive to preserve history and traditions. I think that a Latin Mass should be available to every Catholic who wants one.

But I prefer music and Mass in my own language so that I can understand it. I don’t get into “mystery” and “awe” and “atmosphere” and “reverence.” As far as I’m concerned, the less my “feelings” are involved in Mass, the better. My feelings are totally unreliable.

As for reverence, it is an attitude of the heart that is unshaken by music, architecture, language, etc. We make a CHOICE to be reverent. Nothing can take the choice away from us.

 

[Pious_Mat]

It seems to me that Latin as an excuse to leave the Church, even before 1962, is just that—an excuse. If I were in South Korea, and the only Mass was in Korean, I wouldn’t sit in my hotel and sulk because the Mass wasn’t in the language I liked–I would go to Mass to visit Our Lord, realizing that language is not an issue for God.

Also, I’m sure that then, as now, there are many young people who are comforted by the Latin Mass. Put yourself in a Catholic school in the 1950s–the language that is used for mundane tasks, the language in which truant boys shout profanities, the oft-bewildering language of Chaucer, Shakespeare and Dickens…I’m sure that given all those things, English in the minds of many is permanently associated with all things secular. With Latin it can be easier to take a “break” from the secular world, and turn to God, but I won’t get into that here.

In summation, I think that in the OP, Latin wasn’t an original reason for leaving, just an additional argument to try to justify leaving, as was said before.

 

[palmas85]

Haven’t you reached the conclusion that VII did? Hasn’t there always been a provision for the mass in Latin if it was desired?

The provision wasn’t if Latin was desired. No, the provision was that Latin **would **be retained in the Mass, period. Vatican II NEVER did away with Latin in the Mass in any way shape or form.

The virtual disappearance of Latin in the Mass all came about from progressive thinkers who wanted their own way and who knew what was best for everybody else.

 

[brigid12]

To me, Latin is great but if I really had my druthers, it would be a TLM-type mass in Old English. (Maybe it’s because I converted from the Episcopal church. ) That would be easily understandable while still being super reverent.

I missed the post you speak of about a mass that Father Z described in a previous post. What was that?

 

[StatCrux]

Haven’t you reached the conclusion that VII did? Hasn’t there always been a provision for the mass in Latin if it was desired?

The “provision” of VII wasn’t that the Mass could be said in Latin, it was that the Mass could be said in the vernacular! Latin was and still is the normative language of the Church.

I agree with previous posters. Those who want English, let them have English. Those who want Latin have Latin (ordinary or extraordinary).

What shouldn’t be optional is reverence. Any Mass in any language using any form *can *be irreverent. Both Masses need to stay on top of that, but frankly I think the NO has more cases were it needs to “catch up” to the TLM.

 

[NMJenny]

Just for the record, the Episcopal communion service is not in “Old English”–that is a language much like modern German, which would not be understood by today’s English speakers. If you’ve ever seen a piece of the epic Beowulf in the original language, that is Old English.

It would probably be more correct to call the Episcopal service language (at least up to the 1970s, which is when I left the Episcopal Church for the RCC) an “archaic” form of English, or “KJV” English…

 

[lak611]

To me, Latin is great but if I really had my druthers, it would be a TLM-type mass in Old English. (Maybe it’s because I converted from the Episcopal church. ) That would be easily understandable while still being super reverent.

You would probably like an Anglican-Use Mass.