He that is not with me, is against me; he that is not against me, is for me

[Nemorivaga]

Hi everyone,
I’m having trouble making sense of these two passages that seem to contradict each other:
He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth. Matthew 12:30
And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against you, is for you. Luke 9:49-50
That goes against logic. Someone who is not with the disciples of Jesus is someone who is not with Jesus, since Jesus is with his disciples. Therefore, according to the first passage, he is against Jesus; but, according to the second passage, he is for Jesus. How is it possible to reconcile the two?

 

[Nita]

Hi everyone,
I’m having trouble making sense of these two passages that seem to contradict each other:
He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth. Matthew 12:30
And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name, and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not; for he that is not against you, is for you. Luke 9:49-50
That goes against logic. Someone who is not with the disciples of Jesus is someone who is not with Jesus, since Jesus is with his disciples. Therefore, according to the first passage, he is against Jesus; but, according to the second passage, he is for Jesus. How is it possible to reconcile the two?

In the Matthew passage, Jesus is talking to the Pharisees after they accuse Jesus of being in league with Satan. They reject Jesus as a man of God, let alone Messiah and God incarnate. Jesus makes it clear that they must make a choice – either for Him or for the devil - it’s one or the other.

In the Luke passage, those casting out demons show they have faith in Jesus in their actions - they recognize and accept the power of Jesus in their use of Jesus’ name to cast out demons. They are “with” Jesus in their thoughts, words & deeds.

 

[GEddie]

What matters is not so much who one is with, but in whom they put their faith.

IMNAAHO.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Nemorivaga]

In the Matthew passage, Jesus is talking to the Pharisees after they accuse Jesus of being in league with Satan. They reject Jesus as a man of God, let alone Messiah and God incarnate. Jesus makes it clear that they must make a choice – either for Him or for the devil - it’s one or the other.

In the Luke passage, those casting out demons show they have faith in Jesus in their actions - they recognize and accept the power of Jesus in their use of Jesus’ name to cast out demons. They are “with” Jesus in their thoughts, words & deeds.

I get your point, but it seems somewhat simplistic to limit Jesus’s words to a particular situation. Besides, it’s obvious that the Pharisees are against Jesus, since they accuse him of being in league with Satan; Jesus doesn’t need to tell them that. “He that is against me is against me” is a tautology, which is why I’m reluctant to interpret the Matthew verse the way you do. “He that is not with me” seems to refer, on the contrary, not to someone who is virulently opposed to Jesus, but to someone who doesn’t care and doesn’t pronounce himself either way. To me, the instinctive interpretation of this verse is “if you don’t follow me (if you are not part of my Church) then you are against me and serve Satan.” Which, of course, is problematic to our modern sensibilities. Whereas the Luke verse implies that someone who is not the member of the Church can still serve Jesus indirectly. Again, it doesn’t seem to me that the person in question is “with Jesus in thoughts, words & deeds.” If so, he would be among the followers of Jesus, which he is not. More likely, he is a magician who is using Jesus’s name to heal and cast out demons, much like someone who has no clue about Buddhism practices Buddhist meditation nowadays, solely because he thinks that it will help him achieve his practical aim: better health. I wouldn’t call that “faith,” but rather “following a current fad,” which happens to be a fad for Jesus. Besides, even if that person does have faith in Jesus, it doesn’t mean that he’s automatically “with” Jesus. Demons have faith in Jesus too. In fact, he tells them to shut up precisely because they know who he is and confess it. “And he cast out many devils, and he suffered them not to speak, because they knew him.” Mark 1:34

 

[Nita]

I get your point, but it seems somewhat simplistic to limit Jesus’s words to a particular situation. Besides, it’s obvious that the Pharisees are against Jesus, since they accuse him of being in league with Satan; Jesus doesn’t need to tell them that. “He that is against me is against me” is a tautology, which is why I’m reluctant to interpret the Matthew verse the way you do. “He that is not with me” seems to refer, on the contrary, not to someone who is virulently opposed to Jesus, but to someone who doesn’t care and doesn’t pronounce himself either way. To me, the instinctive interpretation of this verse is “if you don’t follow me (if you are not part of my Church) then you are against me and serve Satan.” Which, of course, is problematic to our modern sensibilities.

It’s only problematic if you forget who He is saying these words to. He’s not speaking to His followers or even the general public. He’s speaking to the ones who are the religious leaders of His Chosen People - the knowledgeable ones who know the Scriptures and the prophecies it contains regarding the promised Messiah. He’s saying it to them — whichever one/s of them who reject Him (are not “with me”), are against Him.

Whereas the Luke verse implies that someone who is not the member of the Church can still serve Jesus indirectly. Again, it doesn’t seem to me that the person in question is “with Jesus in thoughts, words & deeds.” If so, he would be among the followers of Jesus, which he is not. More likely, he is a magician who is using Jesus’s name to heal and cast out demons, much like someone who has no clue about Buddhism practices Buddhist meditation nowadays, solely because he thinks that it will help him achieve his practical aim: better health. I wouldn’t call that “faith,” but rather “following a current fad,” which happens to be a fad for Jesus. Besides, even if that person does have faith in Jesus, it doesn’t mean that he’s automatically “with” Jesus. Demons have faith in Jesus too. In fact, he tells them to shut up precisely because they know who he is and confess it. “And he cast out many devils, and he suffered them not to speak, because they knew him.” Mark 1:34

Here are some commentary notes by Church fathers that offer some insights. Hope you find them helpful.

St. Cyril of Alexandria: “…But because the Saviour had given the Apostles power to cast out evil spirits, they thought no one else but themselves alone was permitted to have this privilege granted to him, and therefore they come to enquire if it were lawful for others also to do this.”

St. Ambrose: "…But still since Thou sayest elsewhere, He that is not with me is against me, and he that gathereth not with me scattereth, explain unto us lest the two seem contrary to one another. And it seems to me, if any one considers the Searcher of hearts, he cannot doubt that every man’s action is distinguished by the motive of his heart.

St. Chrysostom: "For in the other place when He said, He that is not with me is against me, He shews the devil and the Jews to be opposed to Him; but here He shews that he who in Christ’s name cast out devils, is partly on their side.

(Source: Catena Aurea by St. Thomas Aquinas)