He who endures to the end will be saved!

[Rocket_Man]

John is speaking of spiritual death. Whereas venial sin injures our relationship with God - mortal (deadly) sin severs it. It is dangerous to think that just because you are a child of God, you cannot fall into deadly sin. The Scriptures are replete with examples of this erroneous belief

In 1 John 5 the author is not speaking of mortal and venial sin. He is speaking of the pattern of one’s life before and after coming to Christ. Will a Christian stumble and sin, absolutely, Can He commit deadly sin, absolutely. But as a rule, the Spirit and the seed that remains in the believers heart is at work purifying the individual.

Please tell me what this means.

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

 

[elvisman]

In 1 John 5 the author is not speaking of mortal and venial sin. He is speaking of the pattern of one’s life before and after coming to Christ. Will a Christian stumble and sin, absolutely, Can He commit deadly sin, absolutely. But as a rule, the Spirit and the seed that remains in the believers heart is at work purifying the individual.

Please tell me what this means.

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

**You are dead wrong, friend. **
A believer CAN fall and lose their salvation, because salvation is not a guarantee to all believers - but for those who remain faithful to the end. I already showed you the passages of Scripture that declare this very fact.
Tell me - what do you think he means by deadly sin?

As for your question about 1 Cor. 5:5 - this is speaking about excommunication - to be ostracized for a time by the Church to allow the work of God to be manifest in that person. The person being spoken of in this specific passage is a man who lis living sinfully with his father’s wife. These verses (1 Cor. 5:1-5) correlate perfectly with Jesus’ giving the Church authority in all matters concerning faith and morals in Matt. 18:15-18 and John 20:21-13.
Contrary to what many mistakenly believe - whereas, excommunication is a discipline - it is also a merciful act.

 

[Rocket_Man]

**You are dead wrong, friend. **

Romans 11:17 - Was written in context to the hardening of Israel, election and the Church. It’s a warning to the church, including the CC, to remain faithful to the promise. It is not scripture aimed at the doctrine of salvation.

2 Peter 2:26-27 - Is simply a statement of fact and written in reference to false prophets and their greed. Most likely they came to knowledge of Christ for unpure motives such as personal gain. God is not mocked, they were never genuinely reborn.

Heb. 10:26-27 - Is simply another repeat of 2 Peter 2: except there is a calling from God and enlightenment to the individual. The individual turns away from the gift, thereby trodding on the blood of Christ whereby he was sancitified. Again, nothing is left for him except judgement. Don’t you willfully sin? I know that when I do sin, I am holding hands with it.

Matt. 7:21 - Backup a few verses, and again you will see Jesus is talking about false prophets. The false prophets will say to me "on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

1 Cor. 9:27 - Paul is in the race for an incorruptible crown, harvesting souls through his preaching. Like an athelete running a race, he beats his flesh into subjection, so that others hearing his preaching of Christ, will not have any charge against him.

1 Cor. 4:4 - Notice that verse 1 states, “So then” So then what Paul?- go back the the last verse in the prior chapter. Whether you follow Paul or Apollos or Cephas and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God" - Don’t say that you are of Paul or of Apollos or of Cephas rather it is God who judges the motives of men and each man will recieve his own reward.

 

[guanophore]

Would Moses leading the children out of bondage with many signs and wonders and then the children turning away on the foot of the mountain because of the delay of Moses coming down a picture of apostacy?

There were some among them that never believed, so they did not apostasize. One must embrace something before they can fall from it.

“And Aaron spake all the words which the LORD had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people. And the people believed: and when they heard that the LORD had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.”

All those that believed, and worshipped, then fell away were apostate.

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; "

This passage does NOT describe apostates. This passage describes those that never believed.

 

[guanophore]

In 1 John 5 the author is not speaking of mortal and venial sin. He is speaking of the pattern of one’s life before and after coming to Christ. Will a Christian stumble and sin, absolutely, Can He commit deadly sin, absolutely. But as a rule, the Spirit and the seed that remains in the believers heart is at work purifying the individual.

This is what happened to you, Rocket. The seed that was planted in you at your baptism remained in your heart, and was at work all that time, calling you to repentance.

When one sins mortally after coming to the knowledge of the Truth, his last state is worse than the first this is because He has been sealed by the promised HS. When such a one rejects God, there remains no sacrifice for sin.

Please tell me what this means.

“To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.”

This is the Apostolic anathema. The Apostles believed that there was no salvation outside the Church. Those who were put out of the Church had no spiritual protection from the devil, who prowls about by a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. Excommunication is meant to jar the person into repentance, so that they will forsake their sins, and return to God.

 

[Rocket_Man]

This is what happened to you, Rocket. The seed that was planted in you at your baptism remained in your heart, and was at work all that time, calling you to repentance.

Everything that was practiced externally by the old preisthood, the sprinkling of the water and blood on the alter and the people, is now applied internally to the heart of the believer at the moment of salvation. Christ being the perfect sacrifice and now High Priest, who from His own body poured the water and the blood at his death through His Spirit now sanctifies the sinner’s heart through the same preisthood sprinkling.

The water baptism is an external witness to the sprinkling (washing) of that which has already occured in the heart of the believer.

And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

 

[Rocket_Man]

When one sins mortally after coming to the knowledge of the Truth, his last state is worse than the first this is because He has been sealed by the promised HS. When such a one rejects God, there remains no sacrifice for sin.

This sounds confusing. How can his state be any worse, for he was once condemened before coming to Christ. So as you say, if he commits mortal sin wouldn’t he just return to where he came from. The end result is the same.

Yes, when one rejects Christ, there is nothing under heaven that can save him. Nothing!

 

[Bob4BVM]

Richard, for approximately the past five years, I have been a Reformed Protestant (Calvinist). If you know about Calvinists (or are one), then you know that they are (in general) vehemently opposed to the Catholic Church and to what they think that it teaches. Here is the problem-- many of them are badly misinformed.

Since 2004, I have been as anti-Catholic as the most fervent Protestant (in regard to the institution and what I thought that it taught, not in regard to individual Catholics). Brother, I have been wrong.

The Catholic Church teaches that we are saved by divine grace alone. The faith that we have, and the works that we do, are only possible because of God’s grace. Furthermore, the Catholic Church does not teach that our works save us. Anyone who tells you that the Church teaches a “gospel of works salvation” is either misinformed or lying.

However, if our ultimate salvation has nothing at all to do with anything we do, then why does the Bible say that he who endures to the end will be saved? (In my experience, you won’t hear that verse preached upon in many Protestant churches!)

Thank you !
Gotta love them converts !
If the average CC knew his faith so well !

 

[Bob4BVM]

This sounds confusing. How can his state be any worse, for he was once condemened before coming to Christ. So as you say, if he commits mortal sin wouldn’t he just return to where he came from. The end result is the same.

Yes, when one rejects Christ, there is nothing under heaven that can save him. Nothing!

It’s not confusing. The one sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit.
Look it up.

 

[Rocket_Man]

It’s not confusing. The one sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin against the Holy Spirit.
Look it up.

Isn’t all sin against the Holy Spirit? Rather it’s blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that won’t be forgiven. And when Jesus spoke it, his fingers were pointed at some of the Pharisees. They knew by observing the many signs and wonders and His good works, that He was indeed the promised one, yet they chose to murder Him.

 

[guanophore]

Everything that was practiced externally by the old preisthood, the sprinkling of the water and blood on the alter and the people, is now applied internally to the heart of the believer at the moment of salvation. Christ being the perfect sacrifice and now High Priest, who from His own body poured the water and the blood at his death through His Spirit now sanctifies the sinner’s heart through the same preisthood sprinkling.

Yes, we are in agreement on this point.

The water baptism is an external witness to the sprinkling (washing) of that which has already occured in the heart of the believer.

You will not find this concept anywhere in Scripture. In fact, the apostles never separated the conversion of the heart by the HS from baptism.

Act 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and **wash away your sins, **calling on his name.’

Act 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You see that Peter here responds to an expression of faith and desire to be saved that comes from those who have heard the Word of God. These had already experienced the work of the HS in their hearts, drawing them to God:

Act 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”

Ananias tells Paul that baptism will wash away his sins. Peter tells the crowd that baptism will enable them to receive the HS. The Apostles never separated the water from these events.

And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basins; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar.  And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, **All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.**  And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.

You keep posting this, as though you do not understand that what you have received about this is the Catholic understanding of the passage. The part of the Apostolic faith you have NOT received is that this is not separated from water.

 

[guanophore]

This sounds confusing. How can his state be any worse, for he was once condemened before coming to Christ. So as you say, if he commits mortal sin wouldn’t he just return to where he came from. The end result is the same.

Yes, when one rejects Christ, there is nothing under heaven that can save him. Nothing!

His state is worse because baptism leaves an eternal seal upon the soul of the person. One cannot become “unborn again”. Once a person has been sealed by the promised holy spirit, he is marked spiritually, just as one is permanently marked by circumcision. If he then turns His back on Christ, then Christ will deny him.

One of the main controversies in the early Post-Apostolic age was the status of those who denied Christ under torture or to avoid marytrdom. Could they be reconciled to God again, or did their denial constitute the consequence of:

2Ti 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

 

[Rocket_Man]

You keep posting this, as though you do not understand that what you have received about this is the Catholic understanding of the passage. The part of the Apostolic faith you have NOT received is that this is not separated from water.

guan, in my own conversion, it was not this way. I spent many nights and days at end buried in His Word. I would get home at night from work and read until I fell asleep and then wake up and read again. His Word convicted me so great that at times unspeakable groanings would exhume from my being. There were many tears that flowed down from my cheeks as He washed me through His Word. I began to change. The things I once loved became things I hated. I remember one night standing on top of a river bridge and throwing away all my prized collection of pagan music. He began to transform me before I was baptized many months later.

“Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.”

“Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.”

Praise be to God!

 

[Rocket_Man]

His state is worse because baptism leaves an eternal seal upon the soul of the person. One cannot become “unborn again”. Once a person has been sealed by the promised holy spirit, he is marked spiritually, just as one is permanently marked by circumcision. If he then turns His back on Christ, then Christ will deny him.

This only plays out this way if you put all the spiritual emphasis on the water baptism instead of the real baptism through Him that purifies the heart through His Spirit. If He is continously sactifying the believers heart, how can one turn back. This is a new and better covenant than the old given to Israel. Now we can say with confidence “All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.”

If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

 

[elvisman]

Romans 11:17 - Was written in context to the hardening of Israel, election and the Church. It’s a warning to the church, including the CC, to remain faithful to the promise. It is not scripture aimed at the doctrine of salvation.

2 Peter 2:26-27 - Is simply a statement of fact and written in reference to false prophets and their greed. Most likely they came to knowledge of Christ for unpure motives such as personal gain. God is not mocked, they were never genuinely reborn.

Heb. 10:26-27 - Is simply another repeat of 2 Peter 2: except there is a calling from God and enlightenment to the individual. The individual turns away from the gift, thereby trodding on the blood of Christ whereby he was sancitified. Again, nothing is left for him except judgement. Don’t you willfully sin? I know that when I do sin, I am holding hands with it.

Matt. 7:21 - Backup a few verses, and again you will see Jesus is talking about false prophets. The false prophets will say to me "on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’

1 Cor. 9:27 - Paul is in the race for an incorruptible crown, harvesting souls through his preaching. Like an athelete running a race, he beats his flesh into subjection, so that others hearing his preaching of Christ, will not have any charge against him.

1 Cor. 4:4 - Notice that verse 1 states, “So then” So then what Paul?- go back the the last verse in the prior chapter. Whether you follow Paul or Apollos or Cephas and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God" - Don’t say that you are of Paul or of Apollos or of Cephas rather it is God who judges the motives of men and each man will recieve his own reward.

Rocket Man –
WHAT** are you talking about?**
You asked me a question and I answered it. I asked you a question and again, you dodged it by pasting irrelevant Scripture passages.
Are we going to have an intelligent conversation or are you going to continue to beat around the bush?

---

Please ANSWER my question from post #82:
1 John 5
Tell me - what do you think John means by deadly sin?

 

[Rocket_Man]

It is dangerousto think that just because you are a child of God, you cannot fall into deadly sin. The Scriptures are replete with examples of this erroneous belief *(****Rom. 11:22, *****Heb. 10:26-27, ****2 Peter 2:26-27, ****Matt. 7:21, **1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4).

elvis, I was replying to your scripture examples you previously posted above. That what I was talking about.

To answer your other question on 1 John 5, “death in this life”. That’s why we should continue to pray for him. Else, why would we pray for someone that was spiritually condemned?

“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

 

[elvisman]

elvis, I was replying to your scripture examples you previously posted above. That what I was talking about.

To answer your other question on 1 John 5, “death in this life”. That’s why we should continue to pray for him. Else, why would we pray for someone that was spiritually condemned?

“If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.”

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

**So you actually believe that he is talking about sin that causes physical death??
Pray, tell me what kind of sin in the 1st century caused death.

 

[Rocket_Man]

So you actually believe that he is talking about sin that causes *physical *death??
Pray, tell me what kind of sin in the 1st century caused death.

This would be one!

But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. **And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. ****And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. **And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. **Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband. **

 

[Rocket_Man]

So you actually believe that he is talking about sin that causes *physical *death??
Pray, tell me what kind of sin in the 1st century caused death.

There are more…

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. **But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.**19

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Bob4BVM]

There are more…

But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. **But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.**19

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Now that is a new one on me, a Protestant quoting scripture that warns against taking Holy Eucharist without discerning the Real Presence of Jesus in the bread and wine !!!
You got this one exactly right !
Many who failed to recognize the glorified Lord in the Communion meal were DYING.
Any lessons in that for Christians of today ?