He who endures to the end will be saved!

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It’s also testimony to establish truth!

“And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”

"I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. "

“And if you are willing to accept it, John himself is El]ijah who was to come"

"and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form like a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased.”
I agree with you. 🙂

However, the Corinthians were doubting the truth of Paul’s preaching, so this is the point that I was addressing. Some Corinthians believed that they could go on sinning after baptism and still inherit eternal life. Paul told them otherwise. They did not like to hear that so they accused him of falsehood.

1 Timothy 5:18-20
For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” 19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. 20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

So, Paul is bringing reinforcements with him the next time he visits them.

2 Corinthians 13:1
This will be the third time I am coming to you. “By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.

Paul’s preaching:

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. 12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.

We are to judge the actions of our brother in order to know if we should fellowship with him 1 Corinthians 15:33. God will judge the non-brethren.
 
Yes it is Guan, it almost caused me to jump off my bike back there when I first read it, I do take your advice on prayer tho’ and that helps greatly
Don’t think you can expect a response on that one though.
I. JUSTIFICATION
1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us*** “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ”*** and through Baptism:34
But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35

1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ’s Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36

[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.39

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God’s merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or “justice”) here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

When God touches man’s heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God’s grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God’s sight.42

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that “the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth,” because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:
Entails: imply as a necessary accompaniment or result-mine


Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45 vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm#I

What the Bible says:
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like {that which came} through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment {arose} from one {transgression} resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift {arose} from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the - Romans 5
 
/Well, it would I’d say, depending on where you are coming from, these are after all Catholic forums, and this particular thread is non- Catholic religions.:rolleyes:;):)Carlan
Now you join with the party?:o
 
Who were those people? The Jews and they, the Apostles, were baptizing, not Jesus.
Are you suggesting that the baptism given by the Apostles was not authorized by Christ? Are you suggesting He commissioned them to do it, but did not teach them how?

“privately to his own disciples he explained everything.” Mar 4:34
Code:
Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit according to my Bible and to some with He will or has Baptized with fire.  Christian baptism by water was not established until the birth of the church on the day of Pentecost and the first 3000 were Baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ.
Are you suggesting that Jesus was not the baptizer in those cases?
John 4:1-3
1 Therefore when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus Himself was not baptizing, but His disciples were), 3 He left Judea and went away again into Galilee.
When one is baptized, they are brought into identity with someone. Jesus was baptizing people bringing them into Himself.

I agree with your point that there was a period of transition. All those who were baptized into Christ received the fullness of the HS at Pentecost.
 
I said Ignatius was just a man like you not God.
Indeed you did, Tweety! However, Ignatius is different from us in that he was a direct disciple of the Apostles. From them he learned to call the One Church Catholic. The Church called herself this exclusively for a millenia, before the Body began to fracture due to the sinful stubborness of men.

Why do you think Iggy called the Church Catholic?
 
Jesus actually said that He will build His Church upon Peter the rock. Future tense. The other apostles built upon the foundation of Peter. Jesus built His Church upon the prophets also because He fulfilled their prophecies concerning Him Luke 24:44.

Ephesians 2:20
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,


This is past tense now. Peter is numbered among these apostles. They have made disciples of all the nations of the then known world Romans 1:8. **The Church is a group of like-minded believers who believe the gospel of Christ and also live it/observe it **James 1:21-22.

Romans 15:20
And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man’s foundation,

Jesus was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel Matthew 15:22-28. Peter and others were commanded to preach to the Jews and Paul was commanded to preach to the Gentiles Galatians 2:7-8.

1 Corinthians 3:10
According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it.

They are to teach “others” and the these “others” will teach others also 2 Timothy 2:2 and this is called apostolic succession.

I see no contradiction. Let’s keep the Scriptures, okay? 🙂 2 Timothy 3:16-17
Will build is not future tense it is the “active voice” continual in the process. (the act of) building, building up.

If that is Apostolic succession, then many were succeeded that are not mentioned by name and that would also imply that their should be at a minimum of 12 Popes at all times, but I guess in order to justify one succession, Peter then become elevated by man or by God? i don’t know; i have been reading on this as well and i see this Pope and anti-Pope and no Pope and multiple Popes, then it begins to get confusing to me. I don’t know how you straighten it all out in your minds. Maybe I’m reading too much too fast and my brain is about to explode.
 
Are you suggesting that the baptism given by the Apostles was not authorized by Christ? Are you suggesting He commissioned them to do it, but did not teach them how?

“privately to his own disciples he explained everything.” Mar 4:34

Are you suggesting that Jesus was not the baptizer in those cases?

When one is baptized, they are brought into identity with someone. Jesus was baptizing people bringing them into Himself.

I agree with your point that there was a period of transition. All those who were baptized into Christ received the fullness of the HS at Pentecost.
:confused:
 
Maybe you need to go read the forum rules about personal attacks, I think that you have purly broken this rule. Debate is one thing but oersnal attacks are another
Thanks for the reminder.

You are right, of course.

One of the main points of my debate with you is that you claim to be Catholic, yet you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church. The content of your posts is sometimes anti-catholic, and frequently non-catholic. This presents an apparent contradiction.
I have been watching the dialogue and it speaks for itself. That’s all I can say except maybe you should dust off your shoes and move on; only as the Lord might lead you.
Such a principle does not apply in this case. Tweety has already received the gospel of salvation. What we have here is our dear sister presenting a scandal in a public forum. Her duplicity creates a stumbling block, and is confusing to people who then think it is not a problem to claim you are Catholic while denying the faith.
 
Carnal and united by the Spirit of Christ. One is made of churches and the other is the true catholic church.
Exactly. Except that those communities established by men (instead of Christ) cannot be considered “church”, since they lack the signs. That is why the Pope calls them “ecclesial communities”. 👍
Code:
Catholic in what sense of the word?
The Church founded by Christ is One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic.
Code:
   If God is sovereign over all, and He is, then denominations must be part of the plan.  Christians by their very nature are one with Christ and one with the Spirit and one with the Father.
No, Mac. God permits sin, and uses it for our good, but that does not mean it was part of His plan. Sin is never in His will.

Yes, by virtue of their attachment to the Head, all are members of the One Body.
You just contradicted yourself. :rolleyes:
It seems like a contradiction to you because you have some misinformation about the teaching of the Church. 😉
 
Actually we can, because we stand simply and solely on the merits of Jesus Christ and His blood that was shed on the cross. This is His promise to us and also the Father’s will. This covenant has been sealed by the blood of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords and He is faithful and will uphold His promises.

And knowing that we have this confidence where the Holy Son of the God is sitting at the right hand of Father pleading our case, our hope is not looking forward to what we might obtain through our works, but looking backwards to our hope in what Christ Jesus has already obtained for us. And through this same hope we are ever greatful and obedient onto death.

“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.”
If you sin, then you become a son of disobedience and as a result of your sin, you do not inherit eternal life Ephesians 5:5-7.

All persons who were going to be saved and inherit eternal life God predestined before the foundation of the world. Predestine is only used in the positive sense. This is why we do not say that a person is predestined to hell.

God had foreknowledge of every person’s every single free will act from his birth to his death 1 Peter 1:2. He predestined only those persons whom He knew who would be working righteousness at the time of their deaths. He shows no partiality Acts 10:34-35.

We reap what we sow. We are not finished sowing either to the flesh or to the spirit until our last breath on earth Galatians 6:7-8. We cannot possibly know with absolute certainty if we are truly numbered among the predestined. Only God knows for sure. And only these whom He had predestined before the foundation of the world are ever put into His hand. This is why they cannot be snatched out.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The only person who could not be possibly be predestined to eternal life is the Antichrist. All other persons had equal opportunity to be predestined. They were actually predestined according to God’s foreknowledge about them before He created them. None of the persons whom the Father gave Jesus are ever lost. However, the Father only gave a small number of persons to Jesus because most persons will not be saved Matthew 7:13-14, Luke 13:23-28.

Many “Christians” will be stunned when they find out after they die that they are not approved for eternal life and this is because they believed that they were saved and that they could not lose their salvation. However, they lost their salvation because they produced bad fruit. They thought that they were predestined, but they were not.

Matthew 7:19-24
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "**Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.** 22 On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;
 
Exactly. Except that those communities established by men (instead of Christ) cannot be considered “church”, since they lack the signs. That is why the Pope calls them “ecclesial communities”. 👍
I guess that includes mine…LOL
The Church founded by Christ is One, Holy, Universal, and Apostolic.
Made of the elect in Christ, but who knows who they really are; it is a mystery.
No, Mac. God permits sin, and uses it for our good, but that does not mean it was part of His plan. Sin is never in His will.
Permitting of sin os exercising His sovereignty. 👍
It seems like a contradiction to you because you have some misinformation about the teaching of the Church. 😉
If you say so, then it must be. :o
 
No washing of regeneration does not mean water baptism and water cannot save, the baptism of the Holy spirit is the seal of redemption in Christ and the washing of regeneration deals with repentance.
The Apostles never separated the two. In fact, they only became separated as part of Modern American Fundamentalism since about 1920. There was an antisacramental movement that tried to separate the inward grace from the outward form. The Apostles, however, taught that the HS works through the water, and that there is only ONE BAPTISM.
raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” - That is the work of God and it is by faith.
Amen! 👍
Code:
By the way, how do you make that link like that without having to put the entire URL?  Can you teach me?  Thanks.
Go to the url you want to link
Copy the address
Highlight the words in your post you want to link
Click on the little globe in the toolbar
When the box comes up, paste the address into the box

Click “submit post”. You have 20 min. to fix if it did not work right. 😃
 
Go back and reread the entire post and I think I was very clear.
I am sure it seems clear to you, Mac, but for Catholics, there is no separation and division here. Jesus grafted Peter into Himself. He renamed Simon to Peter (Rock) to emphasize His intention to make Peter “rocky”. The Father revealed the Truth to Peter, which Peter spoke out in a “rocky” statement. The Apostles and Prophets are perfectly united with Christ, and the Faith. This is the foundation, which Christ as the cornerstone.

When Jesus prophesied that Satan wanted to sift the Apostles, Jesus told Peter "I have prayed for YOU, that your faith may not fail. This is singular, and specific to Peter. Therefore, if we don’t want our faith to fail, we need to get in on the prayer for Peter. 👍
 
If you don’t deny self you will never be a Christian. Sinning doesn’t mean one has not denied self; who then can ever enter the Kingdom?
When a person is baptized, he becomes a Christian/disciple. Baptism reconciles us with God. Baptism removes Original Sin and also all the personal sins that are on our souls at the time of our Baptisms and then the Holy Spirit makes us His temples. He remains in us unless and until we sin a sin leading to death (mortal sin). The Holy Spirit cannot live in a temple defiled by sin. If we do not repent of mortal sins before death, then He will not be dwelling in us, and if He is not dwelling in us, He will destroy us. We will not inherit eternal life if He destroys us. :eek: I have documented all of this in previous posts.

Christians lose their salvation if they sin the sins leading to death (mortal sins) and do not repent before death.

The point is, not very many people actually enter the kingdom.

I’ve documented this fact in previous posts.
 
That is not what my Lord has taught; He did say through Paul that “He began a good work and will complete it till the day of the Lord”.
He will if we permit it, and cooperate with Him in grace.
I believe Him.
This is very Catholic of you. 👍
The one who can’t endure has never received Christ and the promise is not for that person.
Everyone who begins in the Spirit “can” endure, by His grace. Some begin in the spirit, and end in the flesh. Of the three seeds that sprouted,only 1/3 of them persisted. The seed of the seed of the gospel cannot sprout without grace, nor can it flourish without grace.
 
Then explain to me how the Catholic church has made or is the right word canonized so many saints, yet cannot be sure of their own salvation? I was reading about that earlier and did not make an ounce of sense to me and still doesn’t.
The Church declares those saints to whom it has been revealed to us by God that they are glorified in heaven.

There are many assurances for the Christian. We can be confident in our hope.
 
No washing of regeneration does not mean water baptism and water cannot save, the baptism of the Holy spirit is the seal of redemption in Christ and the washing of regeneration deals with repentance.
John the Baptist’s baptism deals with repentance Acts 19:4 because we must repent first before our sins can be forgiven. John’s baptism did not actually forgive sins. Jesus’ baptism washes away Original Sin and our personal sins at the time of Baptism. Acts 22:16. It does not wash away future personal sins.
raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.” - That is the work of God and it is by faith.
Faith without works is not a saving faith James 2:20. Good works prove that we have true faith James 2:24.
By the way, how do you make that link like that without having to put the entire URL? Can you teach me? Thanks.
I hope that I can explain it adequately. If not, then perhaps someone else can do a better job of it for you. 🙂

First, type in (or copy and paste) the Scripture notation into your message box. Then, highlight it. Next, go back to the Bible page that has the entire verse/passage on it and then highlight the URL up in the address box near the top of the page. Copy it. Now, switch back to the Reply to Thread page, and click on the chain-link symbol directly above the message box (located under the white smiley face) and then paste the URL in the box that appears when you click on the chain-link symbol. Click OK and you are done.
 
Also 1John 5
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. 13 ***I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. ***

Just call me Saint MacDaddy. 👍
We are all called to be saints, and we should take advantage of the opportunity. 👍

We know that we have eternal life if we are in Christ. Sin separates us from Christ.
 
Then explain to me how the Catholic church has made or is the right word canonized so many saints, yet cannot be sure of their own salvation? I was reading about that earlier and did not make an ounce of sense to me and still doesn’t.
It is a difficult process to become a canonized saint. For one thing, miracles have to be attributed to the person being canonized and these have to be proved as true miracles.

Good fruit (miracles) prove that the person is in heaven. Canonized saints are good role models. Since this person entered into eternal life, then we are encouraged to keep the faith and persevere in the faith (until we die) so that we can be with God and His angels and His saints forever.

All the persons in heaven are called saints.

Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.
 
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