He who endures to the end will be saved!

[SHW]

Will build is not future tense it is the “active voice” continual in the process. (the act of) building, building up.

If that is Apostolic succession, then many were succeeded that are not mentioned by name and that would also imply that their should be at a minimum of 12 Popes at all times, but I guess in order to justify one succession, Peter then become elevated by man or by God? i don’t know; i have been reading on this as well and i see this Pope and anti-Pope and no Pope and multiple Popes, then it begins to get confusing to me. I don’t know how you straighten it all out in your minds. Maybe I’m reading too much too fast and my brain is about to explode.

I have forgotten most of the grammar that I learned long ago.

Only Peter was “pope” (nickname for papa in Italian) which was an office/duty that he held called chief steward. Only he possessed the keys to the kingdom of heaven which is the sign for chief steward/authority (over the other apostles) and the Church. There can be only one legitimate pope at a time because only one person can possess the “keys” at a time. Those “popes” who are not legitimate (for whatever reason) are called anti-popes. Like Christ and Antichrist; pope and anti-pope are opposites.

When the pope can no longer be in office, then a new one is chosen by lot. Matthias was chosen in this manner (by lot) to replace Judas. Acts 1:15-26

 

[guanophore]

Will build is not future tense it is the “active voice” continual in the process. (the act of) building, building up.

I thought you said that Christian baptism did not happen until Pentecost? Since baptism is what joins us to the Church, then how was it happening prior to the death of Christ?

If that is Apostolic succession, then many were succeeded that are not mentioned by name and that would also imply that their should be at a minimum of 12 Popes at all times,

No. Aposotlic succession is valid even when there is no pope. It is the passing of gifts and authority through laying on of hands. It extends from the Apostles to this present day.

 and t but I guess in order to justify one succession, Peter then become elevated by man or by God?  i don't know;

I don’t know either. What is the 'one succession" you refer to here?

There are valid lines of succession from all the Apostles, all over the world.

i have been reading on this as well and i see this Pope and anti-Pope and no Pope and multiple Popes, then it begins to get confusing to me.

Indeed, man can make such a mess out of the simple things that God sets up.

I don’t know how you straighten it all out in your minds. Maybe I’m reading too much too fast and my brain is about to explode.

We stick with Peter, because Jesus prayed for him.

 

[Rocket_Man]

ICooperation with grace is not “merit driven”, whatever that means.

If we recieve grace as “unearned favor” through the merits of Christ Jesus and his perfect sacrifice. If the individual has to cooperate with this grace or else he falls from grace, isn’t this grace become “earned favor”?

 

[MacDaddy]

Such a principle does not apply in this case. Tweety has already received the gospel of salvation. What we have here is our dear sister presenting a scandal in a public forum. Her duplicity creates a stumbling block, and is confusing to people who then think it is not a problem to claim you are Catholic while denying the faith.

If you believe that, then why do you exacerbate the situation? 70 year old scandalous grandmother.

 

[MacDaddy]

Go to the url you want to link
Copy the address
Highlight the words in your post you want to link
Click on the little globe in the toolbar
When the box comes up, paste the address into the box

Click “submit post”. You have 20 min. to fix if it did not work right.

Thanks I will try it here. Papal Infallibility

That wasn’t to hard…thanks for the instruction.

 

[MacDaddy]

I am sure it seems clear to you, Mac, but for Catholics, there is no separation and division here. Jesus grafted Peter into Himself. He renamed Simon to Peter (Rock) to emphasize His intention to make Peter “rocky”. The Father revealed the Truth to Peter, which Peter spoke out in a “rocky” statement. The Apostles and Prophets are perfectly united with Christ, and the Faith. This is the foundation, which Christ as the cornerstone.

When Jesus prophesied that Satan wanted to sift the Apostles, Jesus told Peter "I have prayed for YOU, that your faith may not fail. This is singular, and specific to Peter. Therefore, if we don’t want our faith to fail, we need to get in on the prayer for Peter.

Jesus prayed for me in John 17.
I like that Jesus grafted Peter; interesting. Jesus grafted me to Himself just like Peter. What about you; had any grafting?

 

[MacDaddy]

When a person is baptized, he becomes a Christian/disciple. Baptism reconciles us with God. Baptism removes Original Sin and also all the personal sins that are on our souls at the time of our Baptisms and then the Holy Spirit makes us His temples. He remains in us unless and until we sin a sin leading to death (mortal sin). The Holy Spirit cannot live in a temple defiled by sin. If we do not repent of mortal sins before death, then He will not be dwelling in us, and if He is not dwelling in us, He will destroy us. We will not inherit eternal life if He destroys us. I have documented all of this in previous posts.

Christians lose their salvation if they sin the sins leading to death (mortal sins) and do not repent before death.

The point is, not very many people actually enter the kingdom.

I’ve documented this fact in previous posts.

Why do people die? Because of original sin nature passed through Adam. Therefore, the infant who is baptized cannot die until they reach the age of accountability and commit another sin. That is the implication of your theology; however what is the reality and what does that do to your theology?

Can you show a single example where the Holy Spirit was known to be indwelt and known to leave and then reindwelt in all of Scripture. Why not; based on your theology it is common place; therefore it should be easy to find many examples.

A Christian by his very “New Nature”, dead to sin and alive in Christ, cannot lose a salvation that was a gift from God. Just read the end of Romans 8 and Paul will set you straight on this account.

 

[MacDaddy]

Everyone who begins in the Spirit “can” endure, by His grace. Some begin in the spirit, and end in the flesh. Of the three seeds that sprouted,only 1/3 of them persisted. The seed of the seed of the gospel cannot sprout without grace, nor can it flourish without grace.

Give me an example of a know person who was indwelt by the Holy Spirt, then known to have the Holy Spirit leave them, then have the Holy Spirit come back again. In your teaching, this is commonplace and therefore should be real easy to find many examples, but I want just one.

 

[MacDaddy]

The Church declares those saints to whom it has been revealed to us by God that they are glorified in heaven.

There are many assurances for the Christian. We can be confident in our hope.

They have received extra revelation from God?

 

[MacDaddy]

John the Baptist’s baptism deals with repentance Acts 19:4 because we must repent first before our sins can be forgiven. John’s baptism did not actually forgive sins. Jesus’ baptism washes away Original Sin and our personal sins at the time of Baptism. Acts 22:16. It does not wash away future personal sins.

Water baptism can’t remove sin, but if that is what you believe, then amen. John the Baptist teaches me that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit apart from water. Peter demonstrates this in Acts 10:44-48 and Acts 11:15-18

Matthew 3:11

 

[MacDaddy]

We will agree to disagree.

It can be easily shown from Scripture, but I agree to disagree.

 

[MacDaddy]

It is a difficult process to become a canonized saint. For one thing, miracles have to be attributed to the person being canonized and these have to be proved as true miracles.

Good fruit (miracles) prove that the person is in heaven. Canonized saints are good role models. Since this person entered into eternal life, then we are encouraged to keep the faith and persevere in the faith (until we die) so that we can be with God and His angels and His saints forever.

All the persons in heaven are called saints.

Galatians 6:9
And let us not grow weary while doing good, for in due season we shall reap if we do not lose heart.

I have been looking at the saint stories and I did not see too any miracles and some of their known history was vague at best. Still does not answer the question of how can one not know their own salvation, but then know of someone that has a very vague history. After looking into some of the stories, some appear to be myth, other appear to be ordinary and a few extraordinary, but rarely does it give the entire history of a person; it seems to be based off a specific act. Perhaps they committed a mortal sin, which no one could say did or did not happen; therefore it makes no sense to me. Guanaphore said it was revealed to the “Church”; I guess through special revelation, which means I now have two explanations that do not agree, which makes me even more confused. i just assume drop this topic.

 

[MacDaddy]

I thought you said that Christian baptism did not happen until Pentecost? Since baptism is what joins us to the Church, then how was it happening prior to the death of Christ?

This is about the building of the church, you do have to train people and get the plans together, then Jesus had to die, then the HS had to descend. If you were building a building, you would start by surveying the land, marking it off, bull dozing the land, then begin to lay a foundation; yet this is all part of the process.

No. Aposotlic succession is valid even when there is no pope. It is the passing of gifts and authority through laying on of hands. It extends from the Apostles to this present day.

Then their is no need for a Pope?

I don’t know either. What is the 'one succession" you refer to here?

The only one you all talk about.

There are valid lines of succession from all the Apostles, all over the world. Why should anyone then follow a Roman Pontiff?

Indeed, man can make such a mess out of the simple things that God sets up.

That is for certain; we agree, just look at the news.

We stick with Peter, because Jesus prayed for him.

Seems rather simplistic; He prayed for all of them and us in John 17. Jesus prayed because Satan requested to sift him and Jesus had other plans for Peter. Reminds me of Job.

 

[graceandglory]

I do not need to look at the link,.

When I was protestant, we called that attitude not having a teachable spirit.

"Do not be wise in your own eyes, fear the Lord."
Proverbs 3:7

***“The Lord opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.”
James 4:6

“But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.”
(James 3:17-18 NIV)***

 

[graceandglory]

Thanks for the reminder.

You are right, of course.

One of the main points of my debate with you is that you claim to be Catholic, yet you reject the teachings of the Catholic Church. The content of your posts is sometimes anti-catholic, and frequently non-catholic. This presents an apparent contradiction.

Such a principle does not apply in this case. Tweety has already received the gospel of salvation. What we have here is our dear sister presenting a scandal in a public forum. Her duplicity creates a stumbling block, and is confusing to people who then think it is not a problem to claim you are Catholic while denying the faith.

:yup:

"that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love."
Eph. 4:14-16

 

[Rocket_Man]

If you sin, then you become a son of disobedience and as a result of your sin, you do not inherit eternal life Ephesians 5:5-7.

All persons who were going to be saved and inherit eternal life God predestined before the foundation of the world. Predestine is only used in the positive sense. This is why we do not say that a person is predestined to hell.

God had foreknowledge of every person’s every single free will act from his birth to his death 1 Peter 1:2. He predestined only those persons whom He knew who would be working righteousness at the time of their deaths. He shows no partiality Acts 10:34-35.

We reap what we sow. We are not finished sowing either to the flesh or to the spirit until our last breath on earth Galatians 6:7-8. We cannot possibly know with absolute certainty if we are truly numbered among the predestined. Only God knows for sure. And only these whom He had predestined before the foundation of the world are ever put into His hand. This is why they cannot be snatched out.

John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

The only person who could not be possibly be predestined to eternal life is the Antichrist. All other persons had equal opportunity to be predestined. They were actually predestined according to God’s foreknowledge about them before He created them. None of the persons whom the Father gave Jesus are ever lost. However, the Father only gave a small number of persons to Jesus because most persons will not be saved Matthew 7:13-14, Luke 13:23-28.

Many “Christians” will be stunned when they find out after they die that they are not approved for eternal life and this is because they believed that they were saved and that they could not lose their salvation. However, they lost their salvation because they produced bad fruit. They thought that they were predestined, but they were not.

Matthew 7:19-24
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "**Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.** 22 On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
23 And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.’ 24 "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

You quote much scripture, but without the foundation of hope laid by Christ Jesus in the heart of the believer, you are building your synopsis on flesh. One can remain in Christ, believe in the merits of the cross, and the hope of eternal life provided by the cross and still fall into sin. He remains in Christ and Christ remains in him because faith in Christ still remains. Even in His glorious wisdom and goodness, God uses the sin He hates for our advantage. For when we return, our hearts are ever more dependent on Him and on His righteousness and mercy.

Rather. it is the unbelieving heart, the ultimate sin, the one that does not think Christ’s sacrifice was worthy enough to purge all his sin on the alter that is in danger of hell fire. It is these that have seen God’s goodness provided in Christ Jesus, and walked away to participate in their own righteousness to make them acceptable to God.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Matthew 7:19-24
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits."Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, **but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven** . On that day many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

What is the Father’s will?

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of Him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Rocket_Man]

The Truth of the Church teach es:
Like conversion, justification has two aspects. Moved by grace, man turns toward God
and away from sin, so accepts forgiveness and righteousness from on high.
Justification includes the remission of sins, sanctification, and the renewal of the inner man.Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ. It is granted us through Baptism. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who justifies us. It has for its goal the Glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life. It is the most exellent work of God’s mercy.
Sanctifying grace it the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us: it is infused with the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
Sanctifying grace makes us “pleasing to God”.

We can have merit in God's sight only because of God's free plan to associate man with the work of his grace,  Merit is to be ascribed in the first place to the grace of God, and secondly to man's collaboration.   *** Man's merit is due to God.***

“If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me”Carlan

Carlan, you have confirmed everything I have said: Justification is blended with sanctifiction. Grace making something good within the sinner through his cooperation as a process. Justification is not a one time event where the righteousness of Christ is imputed to the believer declaring the sinner innocent.

God does not justify whom He does not sanctify, and He does not sanctify whom He does not justify.

 

[adrift]

See response to ElvisMan on same comment. It was a baptism of repentance, just like John’s, which is why Jesus never baptized as chapter 4 established.

Chapter 4 says

[1
1 Now when Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John
2
(although Jesus himself was not baptizing, just his disciples), 2 /QUOTE]

However
John 3:22

After this, Jesus and his disciples went into the region of Judea, where he spent some time with them baptizing

So they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, the one who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you testified, here he is baptizing and everyone is coming to him.”

You must also take into account What John said:

Matthew 3:11

repentance

, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire/QUOTE]
That there was a difference in Jesus’ baptism is therefore acknowledged by John.

 

[graceandglory]

No, it was not. Neither was Tweety’s. One cannot commit heresy in ignorance. When one goes astray because they don’t know any better it is not a willful rejection of the Truth.

Although only one baptism is vaild,** those who are baptized again do so because they don’t understand the apostolic teaching on baptism. **Since they never received the truth, they cannot be accused of departing from it.

Thanks, Guan!

That’s why I put the emoticons in there. You are right in that I didn’t receive the full truth, and I didn’t know better. Biggest regret of my life. :imsorry:
And that’s why you will hear me loud and clear, “We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins” if you are standing next to me at Mass. :extrahappy: