He who endures to the end will be saved!

[CHESTERTONRULES]

When having been enlightened to the goodness of God given to us through Jesus Christ, His Son, turn away from the free gift, and with an unbelieving heart, begin to establish your own righteousness to stand before Him as a ransom for your sinful deeds.

That’s not what the bible says.

Gal 6
9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest** if we do not give up. **

John 15
10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

Matt 7
24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine** and puts them into practice **is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."

Luke 12
47"That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or** does not do what his master wants** will be beaten with many blows. 48But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows.** From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.**

 

[Monte1945]

rovimax;6066447:

How is the doing something measured? How do you know if you are currently picking up the cross all the way? What if you decide that your going to visit your mother in the nursing home instead of going to Sunday Mass. What if your in a fatal car accident before your able to repent of a mortal sin. How do you know if you’ve endured until the end?

I would suggest that God knows the content of the heart… if one has a mortal sin
on one’s soul and have repentance in one’s heart for such sin and does not have the opporutnity to attend Mass to offer that sin up at the foot of the cross during that same Mass God will forgive that sin from their repentance.

The outlines of the Catholic teachings are an outline for people to follow in order
to obtain the Graces of God… But if one does not have the opportunity to follow
those guidlines one still has their personal one on one relationship with God.
As God lives within the person and is one with that person and knows their hearts.

You might try reading some of the christian witnesses which have went beyond
the book of Acts… All of God and his work in the Kingdom here on earth is still
going on… and you can find plenty of witnesses of God’s work through the Butler
book of Saints… and then you might evaluate the " works " of God from the time
past the work from those who wrote the bible… You do recall what Jesus said,
to those who were doing what you are doing… claming that his work was that
of the devil… and he responded how? He said, judge my works to see if I be
of God or not. " So why don’t you close that bible and open the book of saints
and judge the catholic church for her works… You might find a copy of:

“Raised from the Dead” ISBN: 0-89555-251-5
written by: Father Albert J. Hebert SM
1986

It consists of 400 true stories of resurrection miracles… and they happened
after the books of Acts was written… The spirit of God is alive and well and
operating in our current world…

You seem to want to limit the works of God from the bible only. I don’t understand
that view at all… Is not that same God alive in our world today and working within His
Kingdom on earth? Do we worship a living God among us or one that just visited the plantet two thousand years ago. and then faded away with his assumption?

Do you not have a direct connection with the Holy Ghost who lives within you?
If so, does he not communicate with you… ? "lead you into your sin and bring to
you your Truth from God? as Jesus said it would…

If so, why do you lean towards what others did and said in their call from the writings of the
New testement… don’t you have your own book of acts to add to it from your own vocation and works within God’s Kingdom on earth here and now ?

What Paul was called to do… he did… what John was called he did etc…

what is it that you were called to do? read about the others and spend all of this time
trying to project your personal views to others in contrast to what they are hearing from
God? Maybe you are hearing what God wants you to hear… and that the others are hearing what God is sending to them… maybe it is not so important how they hear what God wants from them as to what they are to “do” with that truth.

Seems the bible is the total cause of your faith… what is it’s affect?

It is quite obvious that there are particular scriptures which say, that there is
eternal security… and there are just as much if not more which saids there
isn’t…

You are not going to settle this with picking out one verse and ignoring the others which
have the opposite teaching on the same subject. It is a mystery and all of God’s mysteries can’t be understood with the limits of the human mind…

I think this doctrine is one where each person has to make a very personal decision.

As the correct answer is not that “absolute” according to all the scriptures.

This argument has been around for five hundred years and I think it will continue to do so.
If this could have been proven one way or the other by merely the reading of the scriptures years ago. It would have.

It seems to me, that each time someone makes a good point in this discussion that the other one jumps to a different translation of the bible…going to the armeric to the greek to the latin… or one of the fifteen different english translations… and shows where that one said it totally different… Goodness, what a mess it often “seems” that man has made even of the bible. I don’t even know which bible to pick up or to know if one can trust it to be the actual word of God… I guess for me, the word is trust… and I will trust in the traditions and teachings of the catholic church to be about the most reliable for me to learn how to be connected to God and to obtain his Graces for my vocation as I have for many years now.

 

[Hiskid1973]

Is it possible for those who don’t have good works to still get saved ? Isn’t blaspheming the Holy Spirit the only “mortal” sin as you call it ? Is there more than one “sin unto death” ?

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Is it possible for those who don’t have good works to still get saved ?

It depends on what you mean by good works.

For example, the thief on the cross was saved.

What good works did he do?

You could say that his good works were 1) belief in Jesus 2) proclaiming his belief 3) confessing his sins 4) Asking for help from Jesus.5) rebuking a man who mocked Jesus

 

[Carlan]

Is it possible for those who don’t have good works to still get saved ?

Tell us! What do you think?Carlan

 

[Hiskid1973]

Tell us! What do you think?Carlan

Hey I am asking a question first… … Why the roll eyes smilie?

 

[Hiskid1973]

It depends on what you mean by good works.

For example, the thief on the cross was saved.

What good works did he do?

You could say that his good works were 1) belief in Jesus 2) proclaiming his belief 3) confessing his sins 4) Asking for help from Jesus.5) rebuking a man who mocked Jesus

Ok, now I see how you define a “work”… I had a pretty radical conversion experience that turned my life 180 degrees…So your saving my repentance was a “work”… Sure was an easy one …Felt like a ton of weight was off my shoulders…Man that evening I was so overwhelmed…I felt so washed an clean inside I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry…I lasted for hours till I fell asleep…My druggie coworker had the same experience that same year…Our coworkers in the office didn’t know what to do with us as we started taking to them about Jesus and His plan of salvation…

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Ok, now I see how you define a “work”… I had a pretty radical conversion experience that turned my life 180 degrees…So your saving my repentance was a “work”… Sure was an easy one …Felt like a ton of weight was off my shoulders…Man that evening I was so overwhelmed…I felt so washed an clean inside I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry…I lasted for hours till I fell asleep…My druggie coworker had the same experience that same year…Our coworkers in the office didn’t know what to do with us as we started taking to them about Jesus and His plan of salvation…

If you didn’t repent would you have been saved?

After repenting, if you had returned to a sinful lifestyle and rejected the teachings of Jesus would you remain saved?

 

[Carlan]

Ok, now I see how you define a “work”… I had a pretty radical conversion experience that turned my life 180 degrees…So your saving my repentance was a “work”… Sure was an easy one …Felt like a ton of weight was off my shoulders…Man that evening I was so overwhelmed…I felt so washed an clean inside I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry…I lasted for hours till I fell asleep…My druggie coworker had the same experience that same year…Our coworkers in the office didn’t know what to do with us as we started taking to them about Jesus and His plan of salvation…

A wonderful and powerful conversion experience Hiskid. God does do what it takes to get us to respond to his actual grace. I do think for most our experience is not quite as dramatic but more of an every day process, however, not anyless powerful though.Carlan

 

[SHW]

Here is another misapplication of scripture above as you had inserted Ephesians 2:2 into your reply to support your doctrine. Let’s take a new look at the context including verse one.

“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

The son’s of disobedience are those who do not desire to know God, who are dead in their transgressions and sins and following the ruler of this world. They are not Christians who sin. These are the same that do not come to the light because they love their sin more than God. I was one of these degenerates before I was reborn of Spirit and Truth. Believers come to the light that their sins may be exposed.

Christians who sin are following the ruler of this world. His name is Satan. The sons of disobedience are the ones who disobey God’s commandments. This is why these former sons of righteousness are now called sons of disobedience. Those who sin do love their sin more than they love God. If they loved God more than the pleasure derived from their sin, then they would choose to not sin. Those who truly love God do not sin which means that they choose to not sin against Him. 1 John 2:1-5

1 John 3:4-9
Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin (chooses to not commit sin). Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

If you commit sin, then you are breaking God’s laws. Whoever commits sin is committing lawlessness. If you truly love God, then you do not sin (you do not sin because you choose to not sin). If you commit sin, then you are sinning.

I sense that you may think that I am advocating that we can still habitually practice sin and be saved. This is absolutely counter to the ministry of Christ that lives in us and counter to the rebirth of His children. This is a new and better covenant then the one given to Israel in the wilderness. …

I agree with you that no one can habitually practice sin and be saved. However, only one mortal sin causes the death of spiritual life in our souls. The Holy Spirit will not live in a soul/temple defiled by mortal sin.

Judas committed one mortal sin when he betrayed our Lord. He repented of this sin. Matthew 27:3-5 But, then he despaired and hung himself. This is another mortal sin because He believed that his sin was greater than God’s mercy. He sinned against the Holy Spirit when he hung himself because he insulted the Spirit of Grace by believing that God’s mercy was not great enough to save him. This is why Jesus stated that it would have been better if he had never been born. Mark 14:21 It is better to never have been born than to suffer for eternity in hell.

Sin is completely counter to God’s work in us. Just as the works that Christ did here while on earth were a witness to Him being in the Father and Father in Him, our works are the witness to Christ abiding in us.

If we are sinning, then the Spirit of God is definitely not working in us. The spirit of darkness is working in us instead because when we sin, then we are following the ways of the world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air. We are not following God when we sin. Ephesians 2:2

Ephesians 5:5-7
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.

When we repent and are then baptized, Jesus forgives and atones for every single sin on our souls up to that point in time when we receive the cleansing of the baptismal waters. Adam’s sin and all of our own personal sins are taken care of for “free.” We do not have to atone for any of these personal sins. He does it all for us. He gives us a clean slate.

However, once we have been reconciled to God by the blood of Jesus applied to us through Baptism, then we have to repent and atone for every single personal sin we commit after that until the day we die. We can receive His free gift of grace only once. Romans 5:18

Whenever we sin after our reconciliation to God through baptism, then we are listening to the spirit of darkness and we are choosing to follow the ruler of the air.

If after our reconciliation to God through baptism, we are instead doing works of righteousness and are not doing sins of disobedience like breaking God’s commandments, then we are listening to the Spirit of Grace and He gives us more grace as a reward for our obedience to Him.

 

[elvisman]

…spiritual pride ???

Yes - spiritual pride.
She is a Cafeteria Catholic who picks and chooses which doctrines to embrace and which ones to throw out.

It’s the same thing that the Protestant “Reformers” were guilty of when they changed doctrines of the historic Christian faith and commenced with their ecclesiastical divorce from the Body of Christ.

When it comes to Christ’s Church - the cafeteria is closed.

 

[elvisman]

Thank you once again for yet another blessing. I have not influenced anyone in RCIA to anything but what the Church teaches.

Then my prayers have not been in vain. Thank God for that.

 

[SHW]

All of these are true, and no one denies them. Where we disagree is the source of our love. Where you say, quote: (“those who show their love for Him by obedience to His commandments).” I say, those who don’t have never known Him. The love I have for Christ is completely foreign to me. The love I have for Him was given to me by Him. The love to follow His commandments are planted within me and I cannot any longer be married to sin because I am married to Christ.

“because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.”

Scripture shows that if Christians commit mortal sin (break God’s commandments by adultery, fornication, etc.), then they do not love God nor do they know Him. They are liars. 1 John 2:4, John 14:21 All liars end up in hell. Revelation 21:8

The Bible is composed of letters written to the assumed elect 1 Peter 1:1-3, 2 John 1:1.** These “assumed” elect are baptized Christians.** We call each other brothers and sisters in the Lord after we have been baptized into His Body. However, only God knows by His foreknowledge which of these assumed elect are truly His elect. Some of these who believe that they are His elect will instead fall away from the faith and if they do not repent before death, then they will be damned.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

What happens if you fall away from the faith after you have been baptized a brother in the Lord?

2 Peter 3:17
You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness (fall away from the faith), being led away with the error of the wicked;

1 Corinthians 5:11-14
But now** I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother**, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

Do you believe that this EVIL Christian brother will be saved if he does not repent before death? I don’t.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

2 Peter 2:20
For if, after they (Christians) have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ ( Baptism), they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

There is worse punishment in hell for a Christian who is condemned to hell as a consequence for his disobedience to God’s commandments than there is for a person who had never ever believed in Him in the first place.

Unbelievers are not saved. Those Christians who disobey God’s commandments are worse than unbelievers so they are not saved either. 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 Christians who do evil things and who do not repent before death are not saved. Matthew 7:20-24

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone (Christian) does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

 

[Hiskid1973]

If you didn’t repent would you have been saved?

After repenting, if you had returned to a sinful lifestyle and rejected the teachings of Jesus would you remain saved?

Repentance is the key that opens the door…You know of any of your fellow believers that don’t commit sins…Unforgivable sin…Blaspheme of the Holy Spirit, denying the work of Christ…I don’t believe in sin categories…Sin is sin…Liars, adulterers, getting drunk,it’s all the same…Choosing to live lukewarm is a scary place to be…

 

[Hiskid1973]

A wonderful and powerful conversion experience Hiskid. God does do what it takes to get us to respond to his actual grace. I do think for most our experience is not quite as dramatic but more of an every day process, however, not anyless powerful though.Carlan

TY…I’ve had some pretty incredible experiences and answered prayer over the almost 40 years…Kept my faith burning brightly over the years…

 

[MacDaddy]

FACT:
If you do not obey the commandments, then you are not obeying the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. His gospel is His commands.

1 Corinthians 14:37
If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.

Fact, no one can obey the commandments; show me one besides Jesus Christ that was and is able. This is why we need His imputed righteousness credited fully to our account; otherwise no one will be saved. The purpose of the law and the commandments is to show us we can’t achieve it by anything in us.

How often do you fail to love your neighbor as yourself? How often to you fail to love God with all of your, heart, mind,soul and strength? Everyday most likely if you like the rest of us sinners.

 

[MacDaddy]

Catholics don’t believe that you can earn your way to Heaven. Pelagianism has been condemned as heresy by Council of Ephesus and Council of Orange. You cannot say that the Church for the promulgating a teaching when in reality, this heresy has been condemned: you have a straw men.

If you will look back in SHW’s post, she (I’m assuming) has said with the Church that Jesus’ sacrifice is nothing we could do. We didn’t merit it. God could have left us in original sin but out of love, God the Son became Jesus Christ God Incarnate.

Why would God Himself say “If you love me, keep my commandments” if we are incapable of keeping that? By ourselves we can do nothing without him, it is the same with virtues and vices. Through His grace, we are enabled to keep His commandments yet we have free will and can choose not to respond to His grace.

Why do we need Christ to constantly be providing intercession? Because we cannot keep the commandments. This is the direction of the Christian life to be more and more conformed to the image of the Son; this is what is know as sanctification and starts the moment one is justified, the receiving of the Gift of Christs righteousness or saved.

 

[MacDaddy]

Through Faith and works, as the bible teaches us. Through Christ’s own death for us, his sacrifice, along with what we are expected to do on this earth for him.

I want no part of a God that doesn’t love me enough to let me make my own choices. I am a father of two boys, the ultimate love is letting go to some extent and watching what you have created. Letting them make their own choices in life.

If God won’t allow me to do things out of free will, no matter what that is, I want no part of that. He doesn’t decide what I do at all times, because he granted me free will. If I don’t have free will, and I am saved from the moment of baptism, reciting the sinners prayer, or accepting Jesus Christ into my heart as my personal Lord and Savior, but yet have no influence there after of my life. Bah to that…

I appreciate the candidness of your response. You may not understand the nature of sin as humans. When we receive Christ we make a choice to totally deny ourselves and fully put our lives in His hand or we chose to do it our way. This is why the Bible repeats and warns that few are on the right path and it also speaks of the people that actually find the narrow gate but are unable to enter or strive through it. One must mediate as to why. The disciple asked the Lord “Are there only a few being saved?”. What was His response? The choices we make are ours to make, but once a person is a Christian, they have denied self completely. One will continue to sin or be disobedient, but this is where the Father chastens the child for poor behavior; just like you may do with your boys. God has said there is not one who does good in His sight, which is why we need to make the right choices. I am speaking in general terms in case someone accuses me of something I am not saying.

 

[MacDaddy]

Jesus already paid the blood price for our personal sins so that we no longer have to offer animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of our personal sins each time we sin. We must repent each time we sin in order to be forgiven each time we sin. However, we also must account for and atone for even every idle word that we speak Matthew 12:36. We each must do works/deeds/fruits worthy of repentance in order to atone for our personal sins EACH time that we sin and are forgiven. Matthew 3:8 Jesus paid the blood price for the forgiveness of our sins, but we must still atone for our own sins by doing works worthy of repentance.

We are each judged according to our own works on Judgment Day. 1 Peter 1:17, [Revelation 20:11-13, Romans 2:5-8](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+20:11-13&version=NKJV)**

Romans 8:13
For if you live according to the flesh you will die (be damned)**; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live (enter eternal life).

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death (damnation), or of obedience leading to righteousness? (salvation)

Romans 6:22
But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

He does not ask us if we believe in Him on Judgment Day. He rewards us after we die according to what we did in the body (while on earth). We are each known by and judged by our fruits/deeds/works on Judgment Day. Good works/fruits/deeds prove to everyone that we believed in Him (because we obeyed Him/kept His Word). Bad works/fruits/deeds prove to everyone that we believed Him to be a liar (since we did not obey Him/did not keep His Word). If you believe in Him, then you do what He commands. John 8:54-55

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Matthew 7:13-21
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

21 "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.

False prophets are those people who tell you that you do not have to obey God’s commandments in order to enter into eternal life. 2 Peter 2:1

We can do nothing apart from the grace of God. Only God’s grace (Holy Spirit) dwelling within me saves me on Judgment Day. I cannot save myself. It is the Holy Spirit present in my soul at the time of my death Who guarantees my salvation. If He is not found present/abiding/dwelling within my soul at the time of my death because I chose to defile my temple with mortal sin and neglected to repent of my insult to Him the Spirit of Grace before my death, then He will damn me/destroy me after my death. 1 Corinthians 3:16-18, Hebrews 10:26-30 Mortal sin separates us from God.

So the answer is you and God.

 

[MacDaddy]

We will agree to disagree.

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.
**
If you love God more than yourself**, which is what He commands of us in order for us to have the right to enter into eternal life, then you will choose to not sin against Him by breaking His commandments. 1 John 3:6

If we do not obey/keep His commandments, then we do not love Him.

John 14:21
He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

We must be found worthy in order to have the right to enter into eternal life.

Revelation 3:4
You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled (by mortal sin) their garments (baptismal garments); and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.

Revelation 22:14
Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Only those who are approved (as a result of Christ’s judgment) receive the crown of eternal life. Only those you love God are approved (those who show their love for Him by obedience to His commandments).

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him (obey Him).

I for one cannot meet that standard; so I’m fully counting on Christ and His righteousness credited to my account and stamped paid in full.