He who endures to the end will be saved!

[SHW]

Continued:

Only God’s Sanctifying Grace Saves Us

The Consuming Fire of God

At the time of a person’s death 2 Corinthians 5:10-11, God the Consuming Fire Deuteronomy 4:24, tests this person’s works by His Consuming Fire of Love 1 John 4:8 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, Matthew 12:36. If this person has the Holy Spirit living/abiding within him at the time of his death because he has done the good works required for his salvation Ephesians 2:10, then the Holy Spirit saves him because He, Who is Sanctifying Grace, is the guarantee of his salvation. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22. And if this person’s works are completely perfected in love Matthew 5:48, he is immediately approved to receive the crown of eternal life James 1:12 and this person goes directly to heaven James 2:22, Ephesians 4:13.

If, however, the Holy Spirit tests this same person’s good works by His Consuming Fire Galatians 5:6, but his good works have not yet been made perfect in love, then his soul must have all its imperfections burned or purged away first 1 Corinthians 3:15, Luke 12:58-59, Philippians 3:12 until he is made perfect Hebrews 12:23 and then he can enter into heaven. James 1:4 This is why we call this place or state of the soul Prison 1 Peter 3:19, or “Purgatory” 2 Corinthians 7:1, Revelation 3:2, since he is not allowed to enter into eternal life until every imperfection has been burned/purged from his soul. Only a soul made perfect through his perfect love of both God and neighbor Luke 10:25-27 may enter into heaven Revelation 22:14, James 3:2.

But, if the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in this person’s soul at the time of death because this person has no good works James 2:20, then when this person passes through the Consuming Fire of Love, he himself will be consumed/burned up/destroyed because there was no saving Grace (sanctifying grace) in his soul at the time of his death to guarantee his salvation 1 Corinthians 3:17. Absolutely none of the righteous works that he did while he was alive are remembered Ezekiel 33:13 and he himself is cast into hell for eternity John 15:6, John 5:28-29. We are justified by works, not faith alone James 2:24.

The Battle Between Christ and Satan for Souls

To be continued……

 

[Rocket_Man]

Continued:

Only God’s Sanctifying Grace Saves Us

The Consuming Fire of God

At the time of a person’s death 2 Corinthians 5:10-11, God the Consuming Fire Deuteronomy 4:24, tests this person’s works by His Consuming Fire of Love 1 John 4:8 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, Matthew 12:36. If this person has the Holy Spirit living/abiding within him at the time of his death because he has done the good works required for his salvation Ephesians 2:10, then the Holy Spirit saves him because He, Who is Sanctifying Grace, is the guarantee of his salvation. 2 Corinthians 1:21-22. And if this person’s works are completely perfected in love Matthew 5:48, he is immediately approved to receive the crown of eternal life James 1:12 and this person goes directly to heaven James 2:22, Ephesians 4:13.

If, however, the Holy Spirit tests this same person’s good works by His Consuming Fire Galatians 5:6, but his good works have not yet been made perfect in love, then his soul must have all its imperfections burned or purged away first 1 Corinthians 3:15, Luke 12:58-59, Philippians 3:12 until he is made perfect Hebrews 12:23 and then he can enter into heaven. James 1:4 This is why we call this place or state of the soul Prison 1 Peter 3:19, or “Purgatory” 2 Corinthians 7:1, Revelation 3:2, since he is not allowed to enter into eternal life until every imperfection has been burned/purged from his soul. Only a soul made perfect through his perfect love of both God and neighbor Luke 10:25-27 may enter into heaven Revelation 22:14, James 3:2.

But, if the Holy Spirit is not dwelling in this person’s soul at the time of death because this person has no good works James 2:20, then when this person passes through the Consuming Fire of Love, he himself will be consumed/burned up/destroyed because there was no saving Grace (sanctifying grace) in his soul at the time of his death to guarantee his salvation 1 Corinthians 3:17. Absolutely none of the righteous works that he did while he was alive are remembered Ezekiel 33:13 and he himself is cast into hell for eternity John 15:6, John 5:28-29. We are justified by works, not faith alone James 2:24.

The Battle Between Christ and Satan for Souls

To be continued……

These last two posts are a great examples how one can just about make up any doctrine when pulling single verses out of context to support a position. You have already ruined your credibility with me because I believe you had previously misaligned the Word.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

These last two posts are a great examples how one can just about make up any doctrine when pulling single verses out of context to support a position. You have already ruined your credibility with me because I believe you had previously misaligned the Word.

Care to use Scripture and/or reasoning to back that claim up? Right now, all I see is an accusation but no substance on where SHW has gone wrong.

 

[Carlan]

These last two posts are a great examples how one can just about make up any doctrine when pulling single verses out of context to support a position. You have already ruined your credibility with me because I believe you had previously misaligned the Word.

Only the pure in heart will see the face of Gode(see the Beatitudes) He who dies with deadly sin in the soul (without repentance and reconciliation goes to )
we should be thankful to God for the grace of purging.
Ponder the beatitude " Happy the pure in heart, they shall see God".Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

Care to use Scripture and/or reasoning to back that claim up? Right now, all I see is an accusation but no substance on where SHW has gone wrong.

I have several times explained 1 John 5, Hebrews 10, 1 Corinthians 9, and others. Yet, SHW disregards a clear understanding of the authors intent and continues to include them errantly.

 

[elvisman]

These last two posts are a great examples how one can just about make up any doctrine when pulling single verses out of context to support a position. You have already ruined your credibility with me because I believe you had previously misaligned the Word.

**This always cracks me up. Every time I hear a Protestant accuse Catholics of taking a passage out of context to create a doctrine, I can’t help but chuckle at the fact that the two pillars of Protestantism aren’t even supported by Scripture! **
**You have to do some real Scriptural acrobatics to arrive at both Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide - and many other Protestant doctrines.

---

The fact is that your positions – like most Protestants – are not the positions of the historic Christian faith, but rather your own opinions.**

 

[Rocket_Man]

Continued:

If, however, the Holy Spirit tests this same person’s good works by His Consuming Fire Galatians 5:6, but his good works have not yet been made perfect in love, then his soul must have all its imperfections burned or purged away first 1 Corinthians 3:15,

1 Corinthians 3:15
“Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

Paul is speaking of rewards in heaven gained when one builds with gold and silver upon the solid foundation layed by Jesus Christ. It’s the same idea as “lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven” in Matthew 6:19-24. Some will build upon the foundation with gold and silver and such, others will not. These works will be tested with fire for their heavenly value.

It also the same idea in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 where Paul is speaking the about the souls he has harvested through His ministry. He is striving to win the race and the heavenly rewards for winning.

“For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

 

[elvisman]

1 Corinthians 3:15
Paul is speaking of rewards in heaven gained when one builds with gold and silver upon the solid foundation layed by Jesus Christ. It’s the same idea as “lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven” in Matthew 6:19-24. Some will build upon the foundation with gold and silver and such, others will not. These works will be tested with fire for their heavenly value.

It also the same idea in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 where Paul is speaking the about the souls he has harvested through His ministry. He is striving to win the race and the heavenly rewards for winning.

Guess again.
**Your opinions – and that’s all they are - do not reflect the teachings of the historic Christian Church:

Clement of Alexandria
**The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 A.D. 150-215]). **

Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones? Neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works. (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 A.D. 185-232]).

Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the Day of Judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord (Letters 51[55]:20 A.D. 253]).

John Chrysostom
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 A.D. 392]).

Augustine
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 A.D. 419]).

That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible**, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 A.D. 421]).**

 

[SHW]

Rocket Man, please do not read the following as it will only upset you.

The Battle between Christ and Satan for Souls

The following is but a theory since the Church has made no official ruling on End Times Events except to caution us that Jesus does not come back down to earth to set up an earthly kingdom in Israel for a literal thousand years and that the Protestant idea of a Rapture of the Church away from the earth and into heaven before the Great Tribulation also cannot be taught to Catholics.

This is my theory which includes my own thoughts on the subject plus a mixture of some other persons’ thoughts that I agree with.

Satan’s Battle against God Begins

God created the angels in His own image and likeness and by doing so He gave them free will to either choose to serve Him or to choose to not serve Him Revelation 12:7-8. Satan/Lucifer and one-third of the angels chose to not serve the Lord Revelation 12:3-4. They were then cast out of the light of heaven down to hell/earth 2 Peter 2:4, Revelation 12:9 into “chains of darkness” which in this case means “spiritual darkness” (loss of the Spiritual Light of God) 1 John 1:5 .

(The original Greek “word” for “hell” in this verse can mean two different things. One meaning for the word “hell” in the Greek language is the lake of fire and brimstone Revelation 20:10 and the other meaning for the word “hell” in the Greek language denotes the boundaries of this material world which is the lower air of the heavens Ephesians 6:12, Jude 1:6 "Earth"is included in this type of “hell” and so is the air above the earth and it is this latter meaning for hell that is appropriate for understanding this “realm” of Satan in Scripture. At the end of time, he is then literally cast into the lake of fire and brimstone called hell and he and the other fallen angels must then remain there and be continually tormented forever.)

As a result of Satan’s/Lucifer’s and the others’ expulsion from heaven, the whole “material/natural” world including the earth is now under the influence of Satan 1 John 5:19. The fallen angels along with Satan as their leader war against/disrupt these forces or elements of the natural world Ephesians 2:2.

God also created Adam and Eve and so Satan goes to war against them in order to turn them away from God Genesis 3:1-6 because they are also created in the image and likeness of God. Satan appears as a serpent in the Garden of Eden and tricks Eve into sinning against God Genesis 3:13. Adam is not tricked, but he chooses to please his wife rather than God Genesis 3:12. God is a jealous God Nahum 1:2 and so He drives Adam and Eve out of Eden as punishment for their disobedience to His commandment and then He guards the entrance with angels with a flaming sword so that Adam and Eve cannot return Genesis 3:23-24. Satan next tempts Cain to kill Abel Genesis 4:3-8, John 8:44 and succeeds.

And on and on it goes; Satan and his minions continually tempt men to sin and men choose to either resist temptation James 4:7 or else they are devoured spiritually by Satan 1 Peter 5:8 because they succumbed to Satan’s and his cohorts’ temptations and chose to sin against God’s commandments.

**
God Takes Pity on Mankind and Sends His Own Son as Redeemer of All Men and of the World.**
Hebrews 9:11-15, John 3:17

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

God Takes Pity on Mankind and Sends His Own Son as Redeemer of All Men and of the World.
Hebrews 9:11-15, John 3:17

At the appointed time foreordained by God 1 Peter 1:17-20 God took pity on His sinful creation and He sent His own Son to redeem mankind and reconcile them spiritually to Him. Jesus came in a specific manner as Messiah (reconciling Savior) to the Jews since God first chose them to be His people through His Old Covenant with Abraham Genesis 17:4-8. It is God’s plan for Israel/Jews to become spiritually reconciled to Him through Jesus’ New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31-32 and it is God’s plan for them to then be an example to the Gentile nations 1 Corinthians 10:1-12. So Jesus came specifically to preach to the Jews from the house of David (Judah) and the tribes of Israel Matthew 2:1-6 about the kingdom of God Matthew 15:22-28 which is a spiritual kingdom and it is not an earthly political kingdom that a person can see with his own eyes Luke 17:20-21. He did not come to preach to the Gentiles since He came to fulfill all the things in the Law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms concerning Him Luke 24:44.

The boy Jesus taught in the temple. He then grew in wisdom and stature (became a man) Luke 2:43-52. He then proclaimed His spiritual kingdom and some Jews became His disciples Luke 16:15-17. Satan tempted some Jewish leaders to hate Jesus and so they accused Him of blasphemy Matthew 26:64-66 and so they delivered Him to the Gentiles Matthew 20:17-19 to be crucified Matthew 27:35.

However, unknown to them, Jesus’ offering of own perfect blood sacrifice on the cross to His Father atoned for Adam’s Sin and thereby reconciled all men to God. As a result of Jesus’ sacrificial death on the cross, His New Covenant Jeremiah 31:31, Matthew 26:28 now makes the Old Covenant obsolete Hebrews 8:13 because He has fulfilled/finished it.

The earth quaked in response to the power of the infinite merits of His Holy Sacrifice which ushered in His New Covenant. Jesus had now redeemed the world and mankind with His own Blood. Graves opened and some of the dead were raised Matthew 27:50-54. At His resurrection the earth quaked again, and when an angel rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb, Jesus emerged Matthew 28:1-4 and His countenance was like lightning and His clothing was as white as snow. The infinite merits of His sacrificial death and of His resurrection are so powerful that Satan’s power is limited/dimmed/chained for a thousand years Revelation 20:1-3 (symbolic for a long period of time 2 Peter 3:8).

Satan’s power is chained/limited for a long period of time in order to give His Church time to preach His gospel to the Jews Galatians 2:7-8; but His Church will also preach His gospel to the Gentiles Acts 10:30-35 throughout the whole world Galatians 3:8 because most of the Jews rejected His spiritual kingdom and His New Covenant Hebrews 8:7-11. Even though most of the Jews rejected their Messiah and His New Covenant 1 Peter 2:6-10, God will still save a remnant of these disobedient Jews at the end of the age in order to fulfill prophecy Isaiah 10:21-23, but this remnant of Israel will not be saved (come into His Church, His New Covenant, the spiritual house of God) until after the Gospel is preached to the Gentiles Romans 11:22-28.

Jesus Prepares for His Return to His Father by First Establishing His Church on Earth.

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Jesus Prepares for His Return to His Father by First Establishing His Church on Earth

Jesus’ New Covenant will stand forever because He is the testator of it Hebrews 9:11-28. He will never break His Covenant between God and Man because He is both God and Man.

After Jesus’ resurrection from the dead, He remained forty days on earth Acts 1:3.

In these forty days after His resurrection and before His ascension into heaven, Jesus established His Church/Bride/Mt. Zion on earth Matthew 16:15-19, Hebrews 12:22-26, Matthew 18:15-18, Luke 10:16 , 1 Timothy 3:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:15 so that she would then make disciples (followers) for Him through the preaching of His gospel and also minister to them Colossians 1:24-26 in order to make it possible for the peoples of all the nations to learn how to inherit eternal life 1 Corinthians 11:1, Matthew 24:14.

However, as punishment for Israel’s rejection of Him as their Messiah and their rejection of His spiritual kingdom, they are then judged Luke 19:37-44 and as a result they are exiled to the nations Matthew 21:42-44. (This happened in 70 A.D. when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the temple; and the Jews were then dispersed to the nations.)

Only a few of the many Jews believed in Jesus as Messiah and Jesus chose some of these believing few to be the leaders of His Church in order to minister His New Covenant Ephesians 3:7, 1 Timothy 4:6 to all the nations.

Jesus prepares His Church to go forth and make disciples of all the nations through baptism Matthew 28:18-20 and promises to send the Holy Spirit to guide it into all truth John 16:13 until He returns at the end of the age (Second Coming) Hebrews 9:28.

He then ascends Acts 1:6-11 into heaven to be with His Father and all the saints and angels until it is time for Him to return at His Second Coming 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, 1 Corinthians 15:48-54. He must reign there in heaven until Satan is defeated because earth is but His footstool Acts 7:49, Ephesians 1:20-23.

Now that He has ascended to the right hand of His Father, He rules/reigns spiritually with the saints in the hearts of all of His followers which include those in heaven, those on earth, and those in purgatory (under the earth) Philippians 2:9-11 for a long time Revelation 20:6-11 until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled Luke 21:20-24.

Shortly before it is time for His Second Coming, Revelation 20:4 Hebrews 8:1-2, 1 Corinthians 15:22-26 Satan is given back his full power (he is unchained) Revelation 20:3 in order to help Antichrist so that they can battle against Christ and His Church in one final battle of good versus evil.

The Great Tribulation

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

(Some scholars believe that the number of human souls ultimately saved will equal the number of angels damned. So this is why so much time has to pass between Jesus’ Resurrection and His last battle with Satan. When this number is finally reached, Jesus from His throne in heaven will then cast the Antichrist and the false prophet alive into hell Rev 19:20. He also casts Satan and his angels into hell Rev 20:10 and then He will return to earth for the remainder of His Church Jn 4:23.) Jesus must reign with His saints in heaven until He has put all His enemies under His feet 1 Cor 15:23-25.

The Great Tribulation

Satan and Antichrist make war against all the peoples of the earth. Many of Christ’s followers will be martyred by the Antichrist Rev 6:8-12, Acts 14:21-23, Mat 10:37-39. He did not pray that His followers be taken out of the world during tribulation Jn 17:15, Luke 9:23. He who endures to the end Mark 13:13, Mat24:12 of his life in obedience to Christ will be saved/given the right to the tree of life Rev 2:7, Rev 3:4 James 1:12.

The Remnant Jews

During this Great Tribulation, the remnant Jews will recognize Enoch Hebrews 11:5 and Elijah 2 Kings 2:11 whom God will send to them so that they will believe these Prophets’ testimony that Christ is the their True Messiah and they will then worship Him (the two witnesses ascend into heaven after their resurrection from the dead which is three and a half days after their murders by the Antichrist.) Revelation 11:1-13, Romans 9:27-28. God had reserved these great men’s lives for this great calling (to witness to the Jews and be killed by the Antichrist) and this is why they had not died before this time.
**
Defeat of Antichrist and Satan**

Jesus then defeats Antichrist and Satan and the False Prophet Revelation 19:11-21 and throws them all into the lake burning with fire and brimstone for eternity. The angels will gather all that offends and all men and angels who offend and will cast them all into the furnace of fire Matthew 13:40-42.
**
Jesus’ Second Appearing and Last Judgment**

Immediately after the Great Tribulation Matthew 24:29-30, He with His angels and His saints return to earth at His Second Coming to take those of His Church who are still alive on earth to heaven 1 Corinthians 15:20-27, Ephesians 1:9-10.

Those Christians left on earth after the great tribulation will hear the trumpet and see Him coming Acts 1:9-11 and they will meet Him in air 1 Thes 4:16-18. Their bodies will change from mortal to immortal in an instant as they rise to meet Him 1 Cor 15:51-53.
**
The Last Judgment**

We are then all judged according to our works/deeds whether good or bad Rev 20:12-15 Mat 25:31-46.

The Glory of His Church/His Bride
Rev 21:9-27

The temple of the New Jerusalem is God Revelation 21:22. He wipes every tear away Rev 21:3-4.

He creates new heavens and a new earth 2 Peter 3:10-14 where righteousness dwells.

Revelation 21:6
And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End.

 

[Monte1945]

All you experts and yet not one of you has attempted to tell me what He changed in me?

Yes, of course… as no one can actually say what this is or will be in “your” case.
Where the confusion comes to you, in attempting to assume that the foundation
of your thoughts… are in common with the teachings of the Church…

Yes, we are reading from the same bible… and yes there are “different” interpertations of
the same scriptures… this can be because of various reasons… and I will only attempt
to touch on a few of them…

First of all… is that from a theological view we are seeing two complely different views
of the word "Grace of God " and two different views of the state of man in and out of sin according to what appears to be the bible’s view of it.

It is a very common agrument between most of the Protestant expressions in the world and the various Catholic church views…

Most Protestant denominations consider that when Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden
this damaged their natures… therefore man could never do any real good and because of this damaged state of their souls there was only one hope for the salvation of man
and that was/is “Mercy” from God. No more no less… (this is known under the doctrine
of "Total Depravity of Man) Thus man can not “earn his way into salvation”…
So works are a waste of time and quite frankly against the Word of God.

That Catholic view of man’s sin was that in the garden of Eden God had planted his
divine nature within man to the extent this divine nature was an “immanent” part of the essense of man’s humanity… Which means he was part of his nature… not of faith but of
creation… Thus man was made in the image of God"…
When man (mankind) ate of the tree of knowledge God took that divine nature from him and he was to live now within the limits of his carnal and logical mind…
But it left man’s humanity intact… and without any part of it being “depraved” in any form.

When Jesus offered his sacrifice on the cross… and according to the book of Hebrews’
and Revelation, He is still offering it in eternity… God then sent to back to man his divine nature in “doses”… in layers you might say…

Thus your question as to “what has changed in me”… would read from a catholic’s point of understanding to be too "what is “Changing in me”…
As we would feel that you have not received all of the Graces of God as of yet… which you can receive by being open to God’s gifts to you through the Holy Ghost who comes as a gift baring other gifts.

(I am assuming that you are familiar with your bible scriptures and do not need me
to point them out as to indicating what I am explaining to you)

As a Catholic were are instructed by the Mother Church that through her Sacraments and Prayers we can receive God’s Graces in order to develop us into “Him”…

But this “working out of our salvation is our responsablity” and not the churches…
thus if you attend Mass you will notice that no one there will attempt to tell you what
you are suppose to do with the Graces from God which are given too you for your
personal vocation or call… This only God and the person involved will know.

I can not tell you what God wants from you… I can only tell you that there is a God
and he loves you. He wants you to have a personal one on one relationship with Him
and that He needs for you to witness His love to the people in your life and you need
to go to Him get his Love in you…(Graces of God) take that love and show it to the people in your life… The rest is up too you… Your humanity is not depraved… you can do good
and be good… you can show that kind of love, (goodness) to the people God has given you as your family, friends, co workers, neighbors and enemies…

Does this help you some in understanding what we are about?

 

[Dancelittleewok]

1 Corinthians 3:15
“Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.”

Paul is speaking of rewards in heaven gained when one builds with gold and silver upon the solid foundation layed by Jesus Christ. It’s the same idea as “lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven” in Matthew 6:19-24. Some will build upon the foundation with gold and silver and such, others will not. These works will be tested with fire for their heavenly value.

It also the same idea in 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 where Paul is speaking the about the souls he has harvested through His ministry. He is striving to win the race and the heavenly rewards for winning.

“For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you. Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.”

Why must man make account of himself before God i.e. private judgment if he’s held by the irresistible grace upon his soul and has no choice in the matter? Can man make an account of something if he had no choice to do so? Also, are the “bad works” consumed by fire sins? If not, what is a “bad work?”

 

[Monte1945]

I think we would differ when we get to the Catholic definition of Justification:

Justification is then a one time event imputed by the righteousness of Christ to the sinner and unlike the Catholic doctrine where they mix justification and sactification rather than on the merits of the Cross.

Santification is the “fruit” of being Justified

Yes there was a “change”… you now have the Grace of God in you…

2 peter 4: 8 "we are partakers of the “divine nature”…

Or when Paul said… “not I but Christ who lives “in” me”…

(Col 1:24)
You are much more than a piece of scrap who is being given mercy…
You are an “adopted Son of God” and what you do for the lord and what you
suffer from it. can be offered up with Jesus’s suffering for the body’s (church of God) now.

It does NOT matter what church you attend or what kind of "intellectual comprehension
you have of the scriptures from within your personal mental capacity… you are called to
be Holy and perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect…

This does not mean your santification will be for your salvation alone. but with the knowledge of many scritpures we do know that it can affect your reward in heaven… but

we do know that your santification can have a very real and powerful affect regarding your
call to WITNESS of the love of God which is now in you…

I wish you would start to think very seriously about what kind of witness you are making
of yourself… from the truth which our Lord taught us…

No one is ever to attempt to stop any other christian chruch of doing their work…

“sheep of other folds hear my voice and they come unto me and I shall be a shepard
for them”

“do not stop them working in my name, as he who is not against me is for me”

Catholic’s accept the suffering and death of Jesus as payment in order for us to receive
the forgiving Grace of God. We repent of our sins… and accept that we can not do
anything to acheive our salvation but we feel we are called to “grow in the Grace’
as Jesus did… after he came from the temple as a boy… " and he obey his parents
and grew in wisdom and Grace”.

we have the shed blood of Jesus on our souls… and this should allow you
to accept us as your brothers and sister in the Lord…

what else we do, well, regardless of what you think about it… and you are most
certainly entitled to your own opinions, we find them very well within our understandings
of the scriptures… and if you want to look at the bottom line…

what does it hurt? What harm is it to anyone? If I go to Confession, pray a rosary,
do the stations of the cross… take the Euharist as the actual body and Blood of our
lord and Savior… How does that affect anyone outside of me?

I can give you many examples of how the Lord used me to help others
find His love from the very catholic “traditions” you might find very offensive…

Once I was in a plane going across the country… a three hour flight straight
through. I had my medal of Mary around my neck… and without realizing it
it was out in the front of my shirt… I was sitting alone… with no one in the seats
next too me reading a book… when I felt someone touch my arm… it was an
Army man in uniform and he pointed at my medal and asked me if I was a
christian. I said yes, a Catholic Christian and he asked "would you mind
talking to my wife, she is over there, and he pointed behind himself, and she
is extremely frightened of this flight. I said, of course and he motioned for her
to come, she came and she sat beside me, he sat beside her… The look
on her face was beyond my ability to describe within my vocabuary. She was
actually trembling in her face muscles. and her eyes were wild looking…
it was as much fear as I had ever seen. She began to tell me, that she
had always denied her mind when ever she began to think of God and or
religion but on this flight she understood there could be a wreck and there
wouldn’t be anyway she could get out of her death… And she wanted to
get right with God… and we prayed… The prayer of repentence together.
Her, me and her husband… When we finished. she was completely healed
from her sin and from her fear… she smile… and laid her head on my shoulder
and whispered Thank you… so much… and they went back to their seats
and we continued on…

Not long after that… I was out somewhere and some non catholic came up
to me and offered me a religious tract… and said. "if I really wanted to break
the chains of the Catholic lies and throw that medal of Mary away and get
saved… I could just do it with the knowledge of what was in that tract.

I have never done that yet… and I thank God for that medal which gave
that couple the knowledge that there was someone there who would pray
with them… though I appreciated the intentions and sincerity of that young man who witnessed to me.

 

[Monte1945]

If we recieve grace as “unearned favor” through the merits of Christ Jesus and his perfect sacrifice. If the individual has to cooperate with this grace or else he falls from grace, isn’t this grace become “earned favor”?

If I am lost… and then I hear the Word… and I “believe in my heart” then I am saved…
and it is a free Gift from God.

And that is it. through my repentence prayer all of my sins are covered by the shed blood of Christ and my depraved soul is safe from the punishment of God. I am covered by
his mercy…“only”

okay… sounds pretty good too me… no works, no nothing. I just keep that “faith”
and wait out my time, until I die, and shoot straight to heaven…

As my salvation was a free gift from God. and I can not do anything for it…

Wait!!! I had to have “faith”… yes, under the condition of the fact that I was lost
and by having and using “faith” I am now found…

So, is faith a work?

Is not faith some kind of work? Some kind of “condition” I have to fulfill for my salvation
and with my faith I have earned my ticket to heaven… but if that is so… then it IS work that saved me.

I am just a simpled minded old Catholic and I beg for someone to help me out here.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Originally Posted by Rocket_Man
If we recieve grace as “unearned favor” through the merits of Christ Jesus and his perfect sacrifice. If the individual has to cooperate with this grace or else he falls from grace, isn’t this grace become “earned favor”?

Cooperation of the unmerited grace or falls from the said grace doesn’t make it less unmerited. This grace that God has given me isn’t something I earned by cooperation rather my cooperation flows from this unmerited grace by uniting my will with the Divine. However, one has to the choice not to respond God’s unmerited grace and choose self over the Divine.

2nd Peter 1:4 says that “we are partakers of the divine nature.” How does this line up with your theology, Rocket? Why does participation or lack of mean that grace is earned? I look forward to your explanation.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Cooperation of the unmerited grace or falls from the said grace doesn’t make it less unmerited. This grace that God has given me isn’t something I earned by cooperation rather my cooperation flows from this unmerited grace by uniting my will with the Divine. However, one has to the choice not to respond God’s unmerited grace and choose self over the Divine.

2nd Peter 1:4 says that “we are partakers of the divine nature.” How does this line up with your theology, Rocket? Why does participation or lack of mean that grace is earned? I look forward to your explanation.

“Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast showed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:”

My very universal nature to self perserve coupled with my heavenly judgement of eternal death for my punishment left very little choice to deny Him when through His grace He called and showed me my sinfulness. I could have turned away from Christ, but I would have had to deny the very life that lights all mankind and chosen eternal suffering instead. And I am convinced that if I had my own free will without the law of condemnation and the need for eternal life itself, I would have denied Him. So this free will you claim we have is not as free as you think when given the consequences and who it is that breath’s life into us.

In a similair way, after I became one of His, as a new child I learned through chastisement the rewards of obedience. Yes, I still had the free will to disobey if you want to call it that, but why choose to destroy oneself?

And now that I have learned of Him, I see a higher calling that is greater than the my will to survive. My will to follow Him is not so much based in fear but because He has shown His faithfulness as a Father by redeeming me and keeping me through His love. So I now follow Him and try to please Him, because I now see Him worthy as a Father. And this whole process from the beginning to an end yet to be seen, was all through the gift of His grace. I was unworthy to recieve His grace in the beginning and will still be unworthy in the end.

So in the final observation, my will to cooperate was all shaped by Our Heavenly Father!

 

[Carlan]

7 *
I am convinced that if I had my own free will without the law of condemnation and the need for eternal life itself, I would have denied Him. So this free will you claim we have is not as free as you think *

God’s actual grace, which calls us to repentance, is waiting available to everyone , you must be in the place ready to accept it by your free will , the Father does not force us, we reach out freely in our desperate need, you were at the end of the rope,and had you not chose to grab it, you would have stayed in your deadly sin until you once again reached out for that grace which God had waiting for you to accept freely.

In a similair way, after I became one of His, as a new child I learned through chastisement the rewards of obedience. Yes, I still had the free will to disobey if you want to call it that, but why choose to destroy oneself?

Christians are tempted and freely choose to fall back into sin more than you seem to believe happens.
There but for the grace of God goes I, Thank you lord for the grace of perserverance.Carlan

 

[Rocket_Man]

If I am lost… and then I hear the Word… and I “believe in my heart” then I am saved…
and it is a free Gift from God.

And that is it. through my repentence prayer all of my sins are covered by the shed blood of Christ and my depraved soul is safe from the punishment of God. I am covered by
his mercy…“only”

okay… sounds pretty good too me… no works, no nothing. I just keep that “faith”
and wait out my time, until I die, and shoot straight to heaven…

You could try to wait it out, but that would be inconsistent with God working in you to transform you into His likeness. If you do not see your heart changing then the end of your faith is death.