He who endures to the end will be saved!

[Carlan]

You could try to wait it out, but that would be inconsistent with God working in you to transform you into His likeness. If you do not see your heart changing then the end of your faith is death.

How does God work that transformation in you ,how does your heart change ,How does it grow in the holiness required to please God?:shrug:Carlan

 

[tweetymom]

How does God work that transformation in you ,how does your heart change ,How does it grow in the holiness required to please God?:shrug:Carlan

Believe me if you eer had the conversion experience I had you would know in an instant you heart has changed, and this grows and grows and grows and it pleases God to see our change.

 

[SHW]

You could try to wait it out, but that would be inconsistent with God working in you to transform you into His likeness. If you do not see your heart changing then the end of your faith is death.

Yes. Dead faith does not save.

James 2:14-24
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Matthew 7:19-20

 

[SHW]

Correction to my theory on End Times:

Lucifer is literally forcibly kept/confined in hell awaiting the time of Antichrist when God will release him to prepare the world for Antichrist and to assist the Antichrist in the final battle between good and evil according to Revelation 20:1-3).

When the times of the Gentiles are finished, then Lucifer/Satan will be released for a little while.

According to visions by St. Frances of Rome (Born 1384 in Rome, died 1440 in Rome), Satan was still “chained/confined” at the very bottom of hell during her lifetime.

traditioninaction.org/SOD/j011sdSt.FrancesRome3-9.htm

 

[mmmcounts]

As my salvation was a free gift from God. and I can not do anything for it…

Correct.

Wait!!! I had to have “faith”… yes, under the condition of the fact that I was lost
and by having and using “faith” I am now found…

Ah, tricky tricky. Indeed, you must have faith. But you are not responsible for producing it- in fact, you’re incapable of producing it within yourself.

So, is faith a work?

No.

Is not faith some kind of work?

Again, no.

Some kind of “condition” I have to fulfill for my salvation and with my faith I have earned my ticket to heaven…

Faith itself is a gift from God. It is not a work done by you that is so awesome that God is now indebted to you.

A quick definition of faith:
“Now faith is of things hoped for, an assurance; and of things unseen, a confidence.” (Hebrews 11:1).
But where does this faith come from? Is it self-generated?

Hebrews 12:1b-2a- “let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith.”
Jesus is the founder of my faith and yours. He is the perfecter. And he is the source. We have it because Jesus founded (or “authored”) it within us. So look to the source. (Psst- the source isn’t you).

You are neither the founder nor perfecter of your faith. You have no business calling it a work that is done by you. Please don’t do so in the future.

but if that is so… then it IS work that saved me.

That is not so, and it is not a work that saved you. You don’t believe that and neither do any non-Catholics, so there’s no reason for you to continue this charade.

I am just a simple minded old Catholic

Doubtful.

and I beg for someone to help me out here.

Tongue in cheek, I’m sure.

 

[SHW]

…Indeed, you must have faith. But you are not responsible for producing it- in fact, you’re incapable of producing it within yourself.

God gives each person enough actual grace in order for him to choose to believe in Him. But, the person still has to choose to believe in Him in order to receive the sanctifying grace that will save him. And, after he chooses to believe in Him and is baptized (sanctified) 1 Corinthians 6:11 as a result of his choice to believe in him, then he will have to continue to believe in Him (obey Him/love Him) until he dies Matthew 24:11-13, Acts 14:22, Acts 2:42, Acts 13:43, Romans 11:22. To continue to believe in/love Him means that he has to obey Him. Disobedience is unbelief. Hebrews 3:18-19, Hebrews 3:12-13, 1 Timothy 5:8, James 2:20 Love is obedience to His commandments. John 14:21, 1 John 2:4

Faith itself is a gift from God. It is not a work done by you that is so awesome that God is now indebted to you.

A quick definition of faith:
“Now faith is of things hoped for, an assurance; and of things unseen, a confidence.” (Hebrews 11:1).
But where does this faith come from? Is it self-generated?

Hebrews 12:1b-2a- “let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith.”
Jesus is the founder of my faith and yours. He is the perfecter. And he is the source. We have it because Jesus founded (or “authored”) it within us. So look to the source.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Ephesians 4:7
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

Every person is given enough actual grace in order for him to be able to choose to serve God (be saved). However, each person must use his free will and make the choice to serve God if he desires to be saved. Choosing to serve God is a work of faith and this faith is dependent upon the grace of God. We are saved by grace alone. But, we inherit eternal life by our “faith working through love.” (Obedience to God’s commands and fulfilling the Father’s Will.) We do not inherit eternal life by faith alone. Good works are necessary in order for us to inherit eternal life. Titus 1:16, Matthew 7:20-26, 2 Thessalonians 1:8

Galatians 5:6
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but** faith working through love**.

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works (what he does) and not by faith alone. Revelation 3:15-19

We can become saved, but still not inherit eternal life. We must obey God until we die in order to have the right to inherit eternal life. Revelation 22:14

 

[mmmcounts]

God gives each person enough actual grace in order for him to choose to believe in Him.

By “actual grace,” are you referring to a quality that describes a person’s capacity to be the author of his/her own faith? If not that, what is this grace? Specifically, this is where you would say “(Actual) Grace is a _____” and then say whatever else you want. (In the blank, write one word that is a noun. It can be “quality” if you like).

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.

Your emphasis.

Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.My emphasis. This does not refer to everyone in the world who was ever born. It refers to all the people among the recipients of this letter. This is more likely to support the notion that a certain kind of grace has been given to them and not to the people who are not among them.

Ephesians 4:7
But to each one of us grace

was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

Again, who is “each of us?” It’s definitely not every person ever born.

Every person is given enough actual grace

That is your dangerous leap. Everyone among a group of people suddenly becomes everyone ever born. And “Each one of us” is extended to each and every person who is not one of us.

we inherit eternal life by our "faith working through love."We inherit eternal life by a certain kind of faith- that is, the kind that is not dead. But we are not saved by works. Did you read Romans? It was intended to be read by Christians of the Church in Rome.

We can become saved, but still not inherit eternal life.

Loss of salvation. I get it. You don’t believe you can claim “final perseverance” and you believe you’re rightly deemed “anathema” if you say so.

We must obey God until we die in order to have the right to inherit eternal life.

This raises questions of how well you have to obey God in order to inherit eternal life. But I suppose you have that all taken care of, since you can go to a priest who has the power to absolve your sins.

You know, Protestants have someone who does something kind of similar for us. Not exactly the same, but this individual has a lot to do with justification and the forgiveness of sins. His name’s Jesus.

 

[tweetymom]

By “actual grace,” are you referring to a quality that describes a person’s capacity to be the author of his/her own faith? If not that, what is this grace? Specifically, this is where you would say “(Actual) Grace is a _____” and then say whatever else you want. (In the blank, write one word that is a noun. It can be “quality” if you like).

Your emphasis.

My emphasis. This does not refer to everyone in the world who was ever born. It refers to all the people among the recipients of this letter. This is more likely to support the notion that a certain kind of grace has been given to them and not to the people who are not among them.

Again, who is “each of us?” It’s definitely not every person ever born.

That is your dangerous leap. Everyone among a group of people suddenly becomes everyone ever born. And “Each one of us” is extended to each and every person who is not one of us.

We inherit eternal life by a certain kind of faith- that is, the kind that is not dead. But we are not saved by works. Did you read Romans? It was intended to be read by Christians of the Church in Rome.

Loss of salvation. I get it. You don’t believe you can claim “final perseverance” and you believe you’re rightly deemed “anathema” if you say so.

This raises questions of how well you have to obey God in order to inherit eternal life. But I suppose you have that all taken care of, since you can go to a priest who has the power to absolve your sins.

You know, Protestants have someone who does something kind of similar for us. Not exactly the same, but this individual has a lot to do with justification and the forgiveness of sins. His name’s Jesus.

:clapping:

 

[Dancelittleewok]

By “actual grace,” are you referring to a quality that describes a person’s capacity to be the author of his/her own faith? If not that, what is this grace? Specifically, this is where you would say “(Actual) Grace is a _____” and then say whatever else you want. (In the blank, write one word that is a noun. It can be “quality” if you like).

Actual grace precedes conversion; some of the effects are to desire God and desire to good, which then must acted upon by the person using the grace he has received. Here’s a link about grace from a Catholic point of view.

Again, who is “each of us?” It’s definitely not every person ever born.

See 2nd Peter 3:9:* 9 The Lord delayeth not his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake, not willing that any should perish, but that all should return to penance.*

That is your dangerous leap. Everyone among a group of people suddenly becomes everyone ever born. And “Each one of us” is extended to each and every person who is not one of us.

Do you believe that Jesus died for select individuals, not all of humanity?

We inherit eternal life by a certain kind of faith- that is, the kind that is not dead. But we are not saved by works. Did you read Romans? It was intended to be read by Christians of the Church in Rome.

The CC has condemned Pelagianism in the Council of Ephesus and the Council of Orange. The Church doesn’t promote the same thing that she condemns as heresy. We don’t believe that we are saved by only our works. There’s nothing man can do by himself to earn salvation. Rather we believe that God will look under our works as well our faith under the auspices of grace. Since you’ve alluded to the Book of James, you should know that we aren’t saved by faith alone either. While one may have a certain quality of faith, one can still commit mortal sin and lose his salvation.

Loss of salvation. I get it. You don’t believe you can claim “final perseverance” and you believe you’re rightly deemed “anathema” if you say so.

I don’t like your sarcasm and lack of charity here. Catholics do believe in final perseverance (just not as the Calvinist understands it) and will pray for this grace. Did you know that the predestination of the elect (as understood by the Catholic POV) is infallible as per Pope Clement XI in Unigentius?

This raises questions of how well you have to obey God in order to inherit eternal life. But I suppose you have that all taken care of, since you can go to a priest who has the power to absolve your sins.

If God doesn’t require obedience (under the law of grace) to be saved, then He is only Savior but not Lord. Again, I don’t like your charity here. The priest is acting in a persona Christi and when penitent Catholics we confess to God but since sin isn’t in a vacuum, Confession meets those requirements to fellow man and damage done to the Church. One cannot sin freely without repentance and then presume God’s mercy in the Confession–that’s the sin of presumption.

You know, Protestants have someone who does something kind of similar for us. Not exactly the same, but this individual has a lot to do with justification and the forgiveness of sins. His name’s Jesus.

Catholic do believe that Jesus is needed for justification and forgiveness of sins. The difference is how the justification is understood and the apostolic succession.

Pray tell, where are you getting your information about Catholicism?

 

[Rocket_Man]

The CC has condemned Pelagianism in the Council of Ephesus and the Council of Orange. The Church doesn’t promote the same thing that she condemns as heresy. We don’t believe that we are saved by only our works. There’s nothing man can do by himself to earn salvation. Rather we believe that God will look under our works as well our faith under the auspices of grace. Since you’ve alluded to the Book of James, you should know that we aren’t saved by faith alone either. **While one may have a certain quality of faith, one can still commit mortal sin and lose his salvation. **

1 John 5:18

“We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.”

 

[SHW]

By “actual grace,” are you referring to a quality that describes a person’s capacity to be the author of his/her own faith? If not that, what is this grace? Specifically, this is where you would say “(Actual) Grace is a _____” and then say whatever else you want. (In the blank, write one word that is a noun. It can be “quality” if you like).

Actual grace is His call.
Actual grace is the gift/grace of God which “calls” us to Him.

My emphasis. This does not refer to everyone in the world who was ever born. It refers to all the people among the recipients of this letter. This is more likely to support the notion that a certain kind of grace has been given to them and not to the people who are not among them.

True. The recipients of this letter are the “assumed” elect who individually have received sanctifying grace (justification) through Baptism and so they now have hope of eternal life. 1 Peter 1:2, 1 Corinthians 6:11, Titus 3:7

Again, who is “each of us?” It’s definitely not every person ever born.

Every person ever born is given actual grace because God desires for everyone to be saved and Jesus died as a ransom for all mankind. 1 Timothy 2:1-7 However, only those persons who die in a state of sanctifying grace will actually inherit eternal life. Revelation 3:4

That is your dangerous leap. Everyone among a group of people suddenly becomes everyone ever born. And “Each one of us” is extended to each and every person who is not one of us.

I see your point.

But, it is true that every person ever born is given a measure of actual grace (the call to conversion) so that he, if he desires, can then choose to accept Christ’s gift of sanctifying grace (Baptism) personally in order to give him the hope of eternal life which Christ has promised to those who love Him. Titus 3:7, 1 John 4:19, James 1:12

We inherit eternal life by a certain kind of faith- that is, the kind that is not dead. But we are not saved by works. Did you read Romans? It was intended to be read by Christians of the Church in Rome.

These Romans were converted Jews. Paul is telling them that they are not saved now by the works of the Law of Moses nor are they saved now by the works of the Torah Law Acts 13:39, Acts 15:5 because they are now under the New Covenant of Grace instead of the Old Covenant of Law. (We individuals are also not first justified by works of righteousness in the New Covenant because only Jesus could and did atone for Adam’s Sin which is what alienated mankind and us individually from God in the first place. Titus 3:5).

Only Jesus who is both God and Man could and did atone for Adam’s Sin and it is only His death on the cross which reconciled mankind to God. No works of the Law of Moses or Torah or works of righteousness could ever atone for Adam’s Sin which mankind inherited from him. This is why we were first justified/saved by faith in Christ and His grace alone through Baptism. No works of mankind (of any kind) purchased Christ’s reconciliation/grace for us which Adam lost and we inherited. Acts 20:28 It was His free gift to us because He loved us and this gift was not given to us because of anything that we did or could do to earn it for ourselves. We could not earn this reconciliation with God which Adam lost. John 3:16

So, now, in the New Covenant, they are saved by the grace which they received in Baptism which we call sanctifying grace because the water and Word of Baptism sanctifies us (makes us holy and this holiness is what reconciles us to God/restores spiritual fellowship). Adam’s sin made us all enemies of God (loss of spiritual fellowship) and Christ reconciles us to God again Romans 5:6-15 through Baptism because His sacrifice which atoned for Adam’s sin is applied to us individually through Baptism. Ephesians 5:26, John 3:3-5, Romans 6:2-4, Titus 3:5

to be continued…

 

[SHW]

Continued:

Loss of salvation. I get it. You don’t believe you can claim “final perseverance” and you believe you’re rightly deemed “anathema” if you say so.

We are first justified by baptism, but this baptism/justification does not guarantee that we will enter eternal life when we die. This justification gives us hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7 Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit in our temples/souls (when we are baptized) as a guarantee that we will inherit eternal life. For as long as the Holy Spirit is living/abiding in our souls, we are guaranteed eternal life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Baptism seals us and gives us the Holy Spirit (Who is Sanctifying Grace) in our souls as the Guarantee that we will inherit eternal life when we die.

What happens if we insult this Holy Spirit (Sanctifying Grace) by committing mortal sins (sins that lead to death)? We lose our justification.

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

What happens to us after we are baptized/saved if we defile our temples/souls with mortal sins? The Holy Spirit no longer abides within our souls after we commit mortal sins. So our Guarantee will no longer be present in our souls at the time of our deaths and so we are not approved to inherit eternal life. Since He is no longer present within our souls at the time of our deaths, He destroys us/condemns us.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself.

So, if we commit mortal sins after baptism, we must then become reconciled to God again (regain Sanctifying Grace within our souls again through repentence) or else we will not inherit eternal life when we die.

This raises questions of how well you have to obey God in order to inherit eternal life. But I suppose you have that all taken care of, since you can go to a priest who has the power to absolve your sins.

We must remain in the state of sanctifying grace until the instant of death if we desire to inherit eternal life. The Holy Spirit must still be found residing within the temples of our souls at the time of our deaths in order for us to inherit eternal life because His presence (Sanctifying Grace) within our souls at the time of death is what saves us. We are saved by this Grace alone.

However, good works are necessary in order for us to retain/continue in this Sanctifying Grace within our souls after Baptism. We can discuss the necessity of good works for the maintenance/continuance (until our deaths) of this Sanctifying Grace within our souls in another post if you desire to.

Yes, I thank God that He has provided a way to reconcile myself to Him when I sin after my Baptism. He forgives my sins now when I repent (and He will forgive my future sins when I repent) through the action of His priests in the Sacrament of Reconciliation because I can only be baptized once. 1 John 2:1, John 20:21-23 He has set up this system of forgiveness/reconciliation/grace within His Church. Hebrews 4:15-16

After we are baptized, He commands that we approach His throne for reconciliation and to receive other graces from Him through His Church. Hebrews 12:22-24, 1 Timothy 3:15, Matthew 16:18, Luke 10:16, Matthew 18:17

You know, Protestants have someone who does something kind of similar for us. Not exactly the same, but this individual has a lot to do with justification and the forgiveness of sins. His name’s Jesus.

Then, why do you not go to His priests and ask Him for forgiveness through them? This is how He commands us to be forgiven mortal sins when we sin after Baptism. He established a Church and appointed its leaders to represent Him on earth. He told us to listen to and obey His Church.

 

[mmmcounts]

Actual grace is His call.
Actual grace is the gift/grace of God which “calls” us to Him.

So…actual grace describes an act of God, namely His call?

True. The recipients of this letter are the “assumed” elect

Is this meant to imply that they couldn’t actually know they were elect? Why wouldn’t you be able to know that?

who individually have received sanctifying grace (justification) through Baptism

I would be more likely to talk about baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that’s why He came, and that’s what made His ministry different from John’s.

Good answers, though. You are quite good at presenting Catholic teaching.

Every person ever born is given actual grace because God desires for everyone to be saved and Jesus died as a ransom for all mankind.

This is what I would disagree with. I do agree that God desires for everyone to be saved, but I don’t think it follows that every person is capable of desiring God. Romans 9 is the traditional chapter of choice on this point.

[SIGN]What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [/SIGN]Editorial comment: Or not have mercy. That’s also an option that is exercised.

[SIGN]For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. [/SIGN]Like Pharaoh. Was he the lone exception to the “every person ever born is given actual grace” rule?

Really, I’m serious.

[SIGN]You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?[/SIGN]My guess: An incompatibilist who insists on synergistic regeneration.

[SIGN]Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?[/SIGN]Implied answer: An unequivocal “yes.”

[SIGN]What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (These are people, not actual pottery) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, (You said something about God’s call? There it is!) not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?[/SIGN]

Yes indeed, what if God did do that? Would that be a problem? Paul doesn’t seem to think so. He anticipates the predictable objection to this perceived injustice and does not validate it- quite the opposite, actually.

(We individuals are also not first justified by works of righteousness in the New Covenant because only Jesus could and did atone for Adam’s Sin which is what alienated mankind and us individually from God in the first place.

“First justified?” How many are there? It sounds like you’re saying Jesus handles the first one all on His own but you’re more or less on the hook for the second one. But, of course, it’s only because of Jesus that you can even be on the hook for your final justification. And while you will say God, to a limited extent, is responsible for your achievement of final justification, you still have some kind of problem with the idea that God chose some to be vessels of mercy and others to be objects of wrath- and it’s possible for you to know which is you before you die.

This is why we were first justified/saved by faith in Christ and His grace alone through Baptism.

Baptism of the Holy Spirit, yes? It’s not about getting your hair wet- it’s about being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Whether you think it’s a permanent indwelling or not is neither here not there; this is the baptism you’re talking about, yes?

In case you’re wondering, I have been baptized with water. I was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that time. That baptism was separated from the other baptism by several years. And if that hadn’t happened…which, for many people, is the case…of what use is it to be baptized in water if you’re never baptized with the Holy Spirit?

 

[Rocket_Man]

Baptism of the Holy Spirit, yes? It’s not about getting your hair wet- it’s about being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Whether you think it’s a permanent indwelling or not is neither here not there; this is the baptism you’re talking about, yes?

In case you’re wondering, I have been baptized with water. I was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that time. That baptism was separated from the other baptism by several years. And if that hadn’t happened…which, for many people, is the case…of what use is it to be baptized in water if you’re never baptized with the Holy Spirit?

Exactly! And because we were converted later in life when we read the Scriptures, we know the old man from the new man because we have experienced regeneration first hand.

And when Paul writes:

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”

We know that we are like those to whom Paul was writing about. Sometimes I think that because some Catholics place so much emphasis in the water baptism they recieved as an infant and that event being the start of their own regeneration, that when they read Scripture, they have is an inabilty to separate Paul’s writings when he speaks of the old man and the new creation.

It seems that this is the reason they need to insert “mortal sin” into 1 John 5 instead of “bent towards sin” even though “mortal sin” clearly doesn’t flow through the whole chapter.

 

[Jimmy_B]

What is the source of your obedience?

God’s Grace, His Son, Jesus Christ and His teachings, the Roman Catholic Church and it’s structure, the Bible, Holy Tradition, Christian History, an Irish Catholic family history and culture, Faith, Hope and Reasoning…
And, to a certain extent, Protestants and anti-Catholics, they get me worked-up and help keep me going…

 

[SHW]

So…actual grace describes an act of God, namely His call?

Yes.

Is this meant to imply that they couldn’t actually know they were elect? Why wouldn’t you be able to know that?

We cannot know with absolute certainty whether we will inherit eternal life until we die and meet Christ face to face. 1 Pet 1:2, 2 Pet 1:1-11, 2 Pet 1:10, 1 Pet 5:8-9, Rom 6:16-18 If we are obeying God’s commandments and producing good fruits, then we have nothing to fear.

…baptism of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that’s why He came, and that’s what made His ministry different from John’s.

John’s baptism with water was for repentance only. It was not for forgiveness of sins. Jesus’ baptism (water and the word) was for forgiveness of sins (both Original Sin and personal sins on the soul at the time of baptism).

We normally first receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized with water and the word. This Baptism atones for Original Sin. We receive an additional measure of His grace when we are confirmed in the faith (by tongues of fire).

… I do agree that God desires for everyone to be saved, but I don’t think it follows that every person is capable of desiring God. Romans 9 is the traditional chapter of choice on this point.

**
Since God desires every person to be saved, then He provides enough actual grace for every person to be saved.** Romans 9 is a difficult chapter to understand. Esau was not literally hated by God. This is a Semitic manner of speaking (exaggeration). God loves Esau, but compared with His preferential love for Jacob, His love for Esau looks like hate. God actually loves everything and everyone He has made.

Wis 11:25
25 For thou lovest all things that are, and hatest none of the things which thou hast made: for thou didst not appoint, or make any thing hating it.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

The hardening of Pharaoh’s heart is another typical Biblical way of speaking – attributing to God’s “action” things that He merely “permits.” A sinner is always responsible for his own hardness of heart.

Paul is making his point in Romans 9 in a very exaggerated drawn-out manner that we are not to question God’s motives or judgments because He is sovereign. Isa 55:7-9, Ez 33:12-18

“First justified?” How many are there? …

Jesus atones for both Original Sin and all personal sins on the soul at the time of Baptism with water and the word. This Baptism is our first sanctification. We are washed with baptismal water and sanctified and justified by this baptismal water and the word/name of Jesus/God. Mat 28:19

Water Baptism regenerates us spiritually. 1 Cor 6:11, Eph 5:26, Titus 3:5

After we are justified by Christ’s free gift of grace through water baptism, then we must obey God’s commandments and fulfill His will for us until we die in order to inherit eternal life. If we sin “sins leading to death” (mortal sins), then we must repent and be reconciled again to God or else we will not inherit eternal life when we die. “How many times” we can lose and regain justification is dependent upon how many times we sin mortal sins and repent of them before we die. Hebrews 10:26-30

Baptism of the Holy Spirit, yes? … it’s about being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Whether you think it’s a permanent indwelling or not is neither here not there; this is the baptism you’re talking about, yes?

Baptism by “water and the word for the forgiveness of sins Acts 22:16” and “Holy Spirit and fire” mean that we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (fire of Divine Charity/Sanctifying Grace). The Holy Spirit is depicted as “fire” especially at Pentecost. Mat 3:11. Some of the Gentiles received the Holy Spirit by tongues of fire before they were actually commanded to be baptized with water to atone for Original Sin. Acts 10:44-48

In case you’re wondering, I have been baptized with water. I was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit at that time. That baptism was separated from the other baptism by several years…

You were indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the time of your “water and word” baptism. You actually became spiritually “born again” at this time by “water and the Spirit.” Jn 3:2-6

 

[mmmcounts]

Continued:

We are first justified by baptism, but this baptism/justification does not guarantee that we will enter eternal life when we die. This justification gives us hope of eternal life. Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit in our temples/souls (when we are baptized) as a guarantee that we will inherit eternal life. For as long as the Holy Spirit is living/abiding in our souls, we are guaranteed eternal life.

2 Corinthians 1:22
who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Baptism seals us and gives us the Holy Spirit (Who is Sanctifying Grace) in our souls as the Guarantee that we will inherit eternal life when we die.

What happens if we insult this Holy Spirit (Sanctifying Grace) by committing mortal sins (sins that lead to death)? We lose our justification.

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”

What happens to us after we are baptized/saved if we defile our temples/souls with mortal sins? The Holy Spirit no longer abides within our souls after we commit mortal sins. So our Guarantee will no longer be present in our souls at the time of our deaths and so we are not approved to inherit eternal life. Since He is no longer present within our souls at the time of our deaths, He destroys us/condemns us.

1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are. 18 Let no one deceive himself.

So, if we commit mortal sins after baptism, we must then become reconciled to God again (regain Sanctifying Grace within our souls again through repentence) or else we will not inherit eternal life when we die.

This is a fine summary of Catholic teaching- none of which I adhere to, of course. I do have a couple of things to bring up, though.

For me, water baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit were not even close to coinciding. I don’t think it is that way for most people. I also have no particular use for the term “sanctifying grace.”

Let’s see, what else…the passage from Hebrews refers to what happens to “the adversaries.” These are not Christians and they never were. There is quite a bit more written about them in the Bible, and those passages make it clear that they are not Jesus’ sheep, but wolves in sheep’s clothing.

We can discuss the necessity of good works for the maintenance/continuance (until our deaths) of this Sanctifying Grace within our souls in another post if you desire to.

If we got to that, I think I’d have to go through the Imputed vs. Infused Righteousness debate first. Just so you know why I’m not into the idea of sanctifying grace.

He forgives my sins now when I repent (and He will forgive my future sins when I repent) through the action of His priests in the Sacrament of Reconciliation because I can only be baptized once. He has set up this system of forgiveness/reconciliation/grace within His Church.

I disagree. The current seven-sacrament system is not what Jesus set up, and it did not develop into anything close to its current form until the Middle Ages. Thomas Aquinas and the philosophers most responsible for his developments are the main men.

Then, why do you not go to His priests and ask Him for forgiveness through them?

I don’t know any priests, and I don’t really need to. I got people, but they aren’t priests and they don’t presume to speak on God’s behalf.

This is how He commands us to be forgiven mortal sins when we sin after Baptism.

I don’t think you can successfully demonstrate that. Unless, of course, “he” refers to the current pope and some of his predecessors.

He established a Church and appointed its leaders to represent Him on earth.

He did not establish primacy in Rome.

He told us to listen to and obey His Church.

You saying Rome is all there is to the Church? That’s clearly not the case. When was the last time Rome listened to anyone from the rest of the Church?

 

[Monte1945]

This is a fine summary of Catholic teaching- none of which I adhere to, of course. I do have a couple of things to bring up, though.

For me, water baptism and the reception of the Holy Spirit were not even close to coinciding. I don’t think it is that way for most people. I also have no particular use for the term “sanctifying grace.” /QUOTE]

(much data snipped from this post as too much for me to respond too in one post)

You are lost. You have some bad habits which are bad because according to the
Bible teachings. You can’t help that because you are not a chrisitan.

You hear a sermon, you read a tract or you read something in the Bible or you
find the design of the world and the order of nature too much for you to believe
it all “just happened” “or evolved”… you are lured to a church service where
you finally realize there is a God and you walk down the isle and you confess
to the other people there that you are a sinner and you need to have Jesus
as your savior and Lord… “you are saved!”

You go back to your room, and you are sitting there born again you realize, through
the new convictions in your mind and heart thalt you have some habits in your
personal life which are not exactly “chrisitan” and you need to shed those
sins and replace them with your new christian virtures. Thus you will be
the New Creation as the old man with those bad habits is dead…

You sit there and you see yourself as you are… and with this new insight
of yourself through God’s Will for you… you are “not who you ought to be.”
You might pray to God this sinners Prayer… “lord help me to become the
man/woman you want me to be” "Give to me the strenght to do
as you said “be ye perfect as your father is perfect”… or when St. Paul
said… “murders, sex offenders will not be in the kingdom of Heaven”.etc.

As you pray that prayer, and receive God’s help for you to become the
new creation… that process, the help you receive from God is what
we catholics consider “santifying Grace”

Not that hard to understand and believe… is it?

 

[Monte1945]

Then explain to me how the Catholic church has made or is the right word canonized so many saints, yet cannot be sure of their own salvation? I was reading about that earlier and did not make an ounce of sense to me and still doesn’t.

A Saint is a person whom the Catholic Church uses as an example
of a christian who lived a “Great Witness” to the lord…

The chrurch does not want that witness’ life to be forgotten
in time. So that witness can be known by any and all
other people christian or not.

Notice how many non-religious people through out all of history
can name some Saints? I bet you can too…

Every heard of Santa Claus? One of our Saints who actually
lived. (Saint Nicklos)

The church does not say that person is in Heaven or not. No one knows who is
in heaven or not.

 

[Rocket_Man]

A Saint is a person whom the Catholic Church uses as an example
of a christian who lived a “Great Witness” to the lord…

The church does not say that person is in Heaven or not. No one knows who is
in heaven or not.

Then why are you praying to these saints to intercede for you.