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SHW
Guest
When John the Baptist made his statement Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, he was making a general statement about receiving the Holy Spirit as a result of Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the cross because by His death on the cross He would purchase our redemption/reconcile us to God Acts 20:28. He was not giving more importance to the tongues of fire/Pentecost/confirmation of faith.
The “Fire” of the Holy Spirit is Divine Charity/Grace and it is received usually first by Baptism of “water by the word” Ephesians 5:26 because people become sanctified by this Baptism and Baptism is what gives them remission of sins and this makes them Christ’s disciples. Matthew 28:19, Acts 22:16
This “washing of water” in this Baptism sanctifies us (makes us holy, spiritually regenerates us/reconciles us to God) by grace. This is why it is called sanctifying grace Titus 3:5:
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
These Corinthians were unrighteous before their conversions, but now since they have been washed by the waters of Baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus (and the Father and the Son - God is One Matthew 28:19), they are now sanctified and justified by the Holy Spirit’s power/fire.
Paul is also telling them to not be deceived, because if they return to their old manner of living, then they will not remain sanctified and they will not inherit the kingdom of God.
It is water and the Spirit (water Baptism John 3:5) that makes us born again/reconciled to God.
John 3:5-8
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
Mark 1:8
I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.
It is the Holy Spirit Who is Sanctifying Grace, the Spirit of Grace Hebrews 10:29. It is His power which sanctifies us in water Baptism. This is why John states that Jesus’ baptism will baptize us with the Holy Spirit and fire. The Holy Spirit, the Power of God, Luke 22:69 applies the merits of Jesus’ blood sacrifice on the cross to our souls in Baptism 1 John 5:6. It is the Holy Spirit’s presence within our souls at the time of our deaths which guarantees us eternal life 2 Corinthians 1:22. If He, Sanctifying Grace, is not present within our souls at the time of our deaths, then we do not inherit eternal life. 1 Corinthians 3:16-18, Hebrews 10:26-30 So, if we defile our temples/souls/hearts with mortal sin, then we will no longer inherit eternal life.
to be continued…
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SHW
Guest
Continued:
Jesus sits at the right hand of the Holy Spirit, the Power of God, on the throne in heaven Luke 22:69. Jesus, the Word of God, also sits at the right hand of His Father who is the Will of God Acts 22:14, Matthew 7:21. The throne is semicircular. Jesus sits to the right of both His Father and the Holy Spirit on the throne.
It is the Power of God (Holy Spirit) Who sanctifies us in Baptism and He continues to sanctify us for as long as we do not commit sins “leading to death” (mortal sins).
Romans 11:22
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness (grace), if you continue in His goodness (grace). Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Examples of sins leading to death (sins causing damnation):
1 Corinthians 6:8-10
No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
For if we (Christians/disciples) sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (become Christ’s disciples through Baptism Matthew 28:19-20),** there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins**, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”
The writer of Hebrews is speaking of Christians/disciples (we), not persons who have never been baptized/saved/justified.
If people sin willfully after they have come to the knowledge of the truth, (after they are baptized/sanctified), then God’s vengeance will be upon them. Persons in the state of mortal sin (sin willfully) who lead others into sin are indeed wolves in sheep’s clothing.
to be continued…
Jesus sits at the right hand of the Holy Spirit, the Power of God, on the throne in heaven Luke 22:69. Jesus, the Word of God, also sits at the right hand of His Father who is the Will of God Acts 22:14, Matthew 7:21. The throne is semicircular. Jesus sits to the right of both His Father and the Holy Spirit on the throne.
It is the Power of God (Holy Spirit) Who sanctifies us in Baptism and He continues to sanctify us for as long as we do not commit sins “leading to death” (mortal sins).
Romans 11:22
Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness (grace), if you continue in His goodness (grace). Otherwise you also will be cut off.
Examples of sins leading to death (sins causing damnation):
1 Corinthians 6:8-10
No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren! 9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we (Christians/disciples) sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth (become Christ’s disciples through Baptism Matthew 28:19-20),** there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins**, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”
The writer of Hebrews is speaking of Christians/disciples (we), not persons who have never been baptized/saved/justified.
If people sin willfully after they have come to the knowledge of the truth, (after they are baptized/sanctified), then God’s vengeance will be upon them. Persons in the state of mortal sin (sin willfully) who lead others into sin are indeed wolves in sheep’s clothing.
This is your opinion, but it is not fact. Jesus provides the Sacraments through His Church. All seven are alluded to in Scripture and are provided in the Catholic Church John 16:13. They are called mysteries in Scripture. Matthew 13:11 Because “mystery” can mean more than one thing, the Church decided to call these special mysteries sacraments because they give grace to the recipient of the sacrament. 1 Corinthians 4:1
to be continued…
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SHW
Guest
Conclusion:
Matthew 16:18-19
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Only the **chief **steward of a kingdom is given its keys Isaiah 22:22.
Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
1 Peter 5:1-3 “The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.”
Titus 2:15 “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”
2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
The Church’s hierarchy consists of a sacerdotal priesthood: the “office of Peter” or Pope as we now call him (papa means father in Latin) since he is our foremost spiritual father 1 Corinthians 4:15 and our head bishop; all other bishops who are the overseers of dioceses, etc.; elders or priests who are over individual churches, etc.; and deacons who help administer some of the Sacraments, etc. in the Church. Philippians 1:1, 1 Timothy 5:17
Again, Baptism remits/forgives our sins.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Christ forgives sins through the action of His priests in the sacrament of reconciliation. John 20:23 Laypersons are not given this power. Confessing sins to a friend will help to keep a person accountable, but this confession does not forgive sins. James 5:16 Only God forgives sins and He has chosen to do it through the action of His bishops/priests, the successors of His Apostles 2 Timothy 2:2.
Jesus established primacy in Peter and his successors, not in a place.
Matthew 16:18-19
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Only the **chief **steward of a kingdom is given its keys Isaiah 22:22.
**The hierarchy of the Church listens to God, not to its lay members. John 16:13 ** The members of the Church are commanded to obey its leaders:
Hebrews 13:7
Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct.
Hebrews 13:17
Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.
1 Peter 5:1-3 “The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed: 2 Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by compulsion but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly; 3 nor as being lords over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock; 4 and when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that does not fade away.”
Titus 2:15 “Speak these things, exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no one despise you.”
2 Timothy 2:2
And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.
The Church’s hierarchy consists of a sacerdotal priesthood: the “office of Peter” or Pope as we now call him (papa means father in Latin) since he is our foremost spiritual father 1 Corinthians 4:15 and our head bishop; all other bishops who are the overseers of dioceses, etc.; elders or priests who are over individual churches, etc.; and deacons who help administer some of the Sacraments, etc. in the Church. Philippians 1:1, 1 Timothy 5:17
Again, Baptism remits/forgives our sins.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
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SHW
Guest
People deny Christ when they disobey His commandments:
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
These people who profess to be Christians, but who disobey His commandments are also people who deny Christ. Matthew 10:32-33
Titus 3:14
And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.
People, whether Christian or not, who deny Christ either by their evil works or by their lack of good works, will not inherit eternal life. James 2:20-26
Christians who do not produce good works are called lukewarm Christians.
Revelation 3:16
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Luke 13:6-9, Mark 11:12-14, Mark 11:20-21
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mmmcounts
Guest
No. I didn’t. That’s not what happened.
This is how I know. I know what it’s like to not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, and I know what it’s like to be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
At the time when I was baptized with water, I was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It continued to be this way for a few years after that.
There was, however, a later time at which I did become indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I’m not saying it always happens that way for everyone. You, on the other hand, are saying it always happens a certain way for everyone. Please note that this is wrong and change.
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tweetymom
Guest
There is a great big difference and I agree with you.
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pete_29
Guest
Can the indwelling of the Holy Spirit come gradually and not like a flash of lightning? Just a thought.
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Rocket_Man
Guest
All unrighteousness is sin and a denial of God and His commandments. However we are discussing the authors meaning of the phrase “sin willfully” in Hebrews 10, He is not writing about those who are “luke warm” or “not producing good works”. Rather he is specifically wrting about those Jews who were enlightened and turned away from the only means ordained in heaven that a person can receive atonement for their sin(s). Their willful sin is the willful rejection where Christ’s blood isn’t worthy enough to take away their sin and they return to their old religious practices, There is nothing left for them except God’s wrath.
People deny Christ when they disobey His commandments:
Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.
These people who profess to be Christians, but who disobey His commandments are also people who deny Christ. Matthew 10:32-33
Titus 3:14
And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.
People, whether Christian or not, who deny Christ either by their evil works or by their lack of good works, will not inherit eternal life. James 2:20-26
Christians who do not produce good works are called lukewarm Christians.
Revelation 3:16
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. Luke 13:6-9, Mark 11:12-14, Mark 11:20-21
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Rocket_Man
Guest
There’s no such thing as a Christian who doesn’t possess the indwelling Christ.
Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
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SHW
Guest
Feelings are not reliable for determining truth. Many Christians believe/feel that they will be going to heaven when they die, but they will be eternally mistaken. They will claim that they fellow-shipped with Him, but He states that He will not “know” them. The reason that He will not “know” them is because the Holy Spirit will not be found residing/abiding within their souls at the time of their deaths. He only recognizes the persons (as His own) who have not defiled their temples with mortal sins and so they still have the Holy Spirit (sanctifying grace) abiding within the temples of their souls at the time of their deaths as their guarantee (sanctifying grace) of eternal life.
Luke 13:24-28
He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
"But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
26"Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
27"But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
28"There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
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SHW
Guest
Every baptized person receives sanctifying grace (indwelling Holy Spirit in the temple of his soul) at the time of his Baptism.There is a great big difference and I agree with you.
However, not every newly baptized person cooperates with this Grace of God (Holy Spirit/sanctifying grace) after his Baptism and so he does not choose to continually die to self and to change his life to live for Christ. Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38
Instead, he decides/chooses to continue to indulge in sinful activities and he thereby loses the sanctifying grace that he received at his Baptism. He has chosen to defile his temple with mortal sin and so the Holy Spirit will destroy/damn him when he dies.
I’ve already posted Scriptures for all of this.
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SHW
Guest
Christians, whether of Jewish or Greek lineage, who commit mortal sins (disobedience to His commandments) deny Christ by their mortal sins/disobedience. The Greek Christians who deny Christ by their mortal sins are no better than Jewish Christians who deny Christ. Titus 1:16
The Book of Hebrews was written to Christian Brethren:
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
Hebrews 2:1-4
Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
This is the passage immediately before the “if we sin willfully” passage:
Hebrews 10:
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
He is speaking in the Book of Hebrews to his “brethren” and so he tells these fellow Christians 10:26-27 that "if we sin willfully," after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
There no longer remains a sacrifice for sins (Christians are no longer saved) if they commit mortal sins (sin willfully) after their Baptisms.
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pete_29
Guest
You misunderstand me. I’m asking if you feel the work of the Holy Spirit within you in the blink of an eye, or can it take time before you understand that the Holy Spirit is leading you. This is in response to mmmcounts stating that there were years between his Baptism and when he felt the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I’m asking if at Baptism, the Holy Spirit can enter your heart and gradually lead you in the direction you need to go, or is it, BAM, the Holy Spirit is with you.
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SHW
Guest
**
There are two types of sin: mortal and venial.** Sins leading to death are mortal sins and the soul loses sanctifying grace (Holy Spirit’s presence) when a person sins mortal sins and so he will not inherit eternal life when he dies. (Unless he repents of his mortal sin before he dies.) Ezekiel 33:12-18, 1 Corinthians 3:16-18
Sins not leading to death are venial sins. 1 John 5:16-17 Sanctifying grace is not lost when a person sins this type of sin. The Holy Spirit continues to abide/remain in the soul when a person commits venial sins so the person still has sanctifying grace and he will inherit eternal life when he dies.
An example of venial sin is when you yell at your kids, even though they have done nothing wrong, because you are tired.
An example of a mortal sin is adultery.
Venial sin does not cause the loss of sanctifying grace. Mortal sin does cause the loss of sanctifying grace.
Paul gives several examples of mortal sins which cause the loss of eternal life:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
A “surprising” mortal sin:
1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
Differences in punishment for venial sin and mortal sin:
Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment (venial sin punishment - prison/purgatory); whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council (venial sin punishment - prison/purgatory), and whoever says, `You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire (mortal sin punishment - hellfire).
There is a gradation in sin and so there is a gradation in punishment. Matthew 7:5
Anger: judgment
Insult: council
Contempt (you fool!): hellfire
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StillWondering
Guest
The slow growth that many of us experience as we mature is beautiful at it’s core. Better than aged wine =). It’s like God is painting our picture in “truth and spirit” and the whole act of painting by God is miraculous.
SHW. Your replies are great. It really enlightening to see how skillfully you bring in scripture to respond.
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SHW
Guest
Thank you for your kind words.The slow growth that many of us experience as we mature is beautiful at it’s core. Better than aged wine =). It’s like God is painting our picture in “truth and spirit” and the whole act of painting by God is miraculous.
SHW. Your replies are great. It really enlightening to see how skillfully you bring in scripture to respond.
I, too, learn something “new” from other posters on forums.Catholic.com all the time. “We” make a good “team.” I appreciate your thoughtful and enlightening posts also. All of us Christians here on Catholic.com desire to imitate Christ to the best of our abilities because we love Him. The more we learn about Him and the more we understand His Word; the better we can know Him, love Him, and serve Him on earth so that we can be happy with Him in heaven after we die.
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Rocket_Man
Guest
Absolutey not! He is telling the Jew that if they willfully turn away from the Gospel (sin willfully), the only hope of salvation, then there can’t be any sacrifice left for them. Because the old covenant has been replaced with the new: Hebrews 8:13 “In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away”
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