Head coverings

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CarolAnnSFO:
Please note that I am not attacking anything here, and I would be happy to wear a head covering if it were mandated again, but I am genuinely curious about this – if the head coverings are a sign of recognition that “this is Holy Ground” when we are in church, then why shouldn’t men also wear a head covering; maybe something like the yarmulke that Jewish men wear?

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***👋 Here are some of the old teachings and now I am on a search …maybe others have inflo on these texts as well !! Why the Church changed etc. The bottom article hints at modesty of dress etc. ***

“Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head - it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then, she should cut of her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. (Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man, nor man of woman; for a woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God. Judge for yourselves; is it proper for woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him. But if a woman has long hair, it is her pride. For her hair is given to her for covering.* If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God.” (I Cor. XI: 4-16}**[18]*
 
The commentary on this passage provided by the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture is of great help: “The difference between men and women lies not in their nature, but in their relationship (Chrysostom, Severian of Gabala). Woman is the glory of man, but there is an enormous distance between that and the glory of God (Ambrosiaster).** A man who approaches the throne of God should wear the symbols of his office, which in this case is represented by having his head uncovered** (Chrysostom). Just as God has nobody over him in all creation, so man has no one over him in the natural world. But** woman lives under the protection of man** (Saverian). The relation of man and woman to God makes all the difference in understanding their relation to each other (Ambrosiaster, Chrysostom). Being covered is a mark of voluntary subjection (Ambrosiaster), calling the woman to be humble and preserve her virtue (Tertullian, Chrysostom). Since woman is the glory of man, it is shameful for a woman to desire to be like a man (Chrysostom). In the Genesis narrative man precedes woman in the order of their creation (Epiphanius, Theodoret of Cyr). The woman was created** with gifts of serving, the man with gifts of ordering** (Theodoret of Cyr). Paul appears to be not confining his instruction about hair to a particular plae and time (Tertullian). He appealed to church tradition (Chrysostom), to nature (Ambrosiaster, Ambrose) and to the argument from general consent of reasonable people in these matters (Chrysostom). Since hair is potentially erotic, it can play into temptation (Pelagius). Natural hair is preferred to deceptive wigs (Clement of Alexandria)”[19].
 
Catherine S.:
Just as God has nobody over him in all creation, so man has no one over him in the natural world. But** woman lives under the protection of man** (Saverian).
Next question, then (and I’m really not trying to be snarky; I just want to understand how this is supposed to be interpreted) – how does this apply to women who don’t live under the protection of any man? (for example – older, living alone, never-married).

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Feminists like to proclaim that God is a woman. In this claim they point to an important fact, namely that the male–female polarity has its origin in God and not in man. Why it is that God, who in his Absoluteness is without gender, is nevertheless rendered in creation as masculine, while Nature - that is Natura Naturans Creatrix is referred to as feminine. Let us consider the act of creation. In God** Essence and Nature are united.** In creation there is a division between Essence and Nature, Heaven from Earth, and subject from object. Nature then “recedes from likeness to God, yet even insofar as it has being in this wise, it retains a certain likeness to the divine being” (Summa Theol 1.14.11 ad 3). Henceforth Essence is the Creator and active power, Nature, the means of creation and passive recipient of form. “Nature as being that by which the generator generates” (Damascene, De fide *orthodoxa *1.18). **The relationship between man to woman is a likeness to the relationship between Essence and Nature, and marriage is a symbol and reflection of the identification of Essence and Nature in divinis. **This same relationship is repeated in the course of our everyday functioning.
 
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CarolAnnSFO:
Next question, then (and I’m really not trying to be snarky; I just want to understand how this is supposed to be interpreted) – how does this apply to women who don’t live under the protection of any man? (for example – older, living alone, never-married).

Crazy Internet Junkie Society
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I have thought of that myself…all I can come up with is that it is still the male in our priests etc. My mind always says "we are all under Christ in the New Covenant so this is not important but I am growing to understand that** Men have a specific role in nature and women another role.** They compliment one another are both made in God’s Image but there is an order that if broken brings a lot of unnecessary suffering.
I read John Paul’s Apostalic Letter on the Dignity and Vocation of women and believe me it was the most beautiful article on womanhood that I have ever read. He must have laboured to gift women with this Apostalic Letter. I think that if the different roles were understood in there spiritual depth we would all do much better. I am beginning to believe that we are living when there is a very false understand of feminity and a very false understand of masculinity as well.
Just more thoughts !
 
Catherine S.:
I think that if the different roles were understood in there spiritual depth we would all do much better. I am beginning to believe that we are living when there is a very false understand of feminity and a very false understand of masculinity as well.
Just more thoughts !
It can be so easy to blur feminity and masculinity when we are forced to play both “roles” within our own home.

The text you posted earlier seemed to say that only men are created in God’s image (unless I’m misunderstanding it). I was always taught that all people are created in God’s image – so I find that a bit confusing.

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CarolAnnSFO:
It can be so easy to blur feminity and masculinity when we are forced to play both “roles” within our own home.

The text you posted earlier seemed to say that only men are created in God’s image (unless I’m misunderstanding it). I was always taught that all people are created in God’s image – so I find that a bit confusing.

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**It certainly could blur the roles. **The only way that one could prevent bluring the roles would be to center always on Christ as a model. Much like priest and nuns etc. I heard a protestant minister say the other night (on a tv show) that Jesus is the model for masculinity. I thought but He is also the model for femininity too. He has the characteristics in scripture that some discribe as masculine but also those that are discribed as femanine. Perhaps as Husband and Wife grow into one as mentioned in terms of marriage they help each other in their union to resemble Christ more…this is easier in some ways but also distracting in other ways. Domestic concerns and children take a lot of their time. For folks such as priests and nuns and those living single it is keeping their eyes on Christ alone which helps them to grow more like Him. Dedication to Him alone.

No, I do not think that only men are made in God’s image ! Not a chance :nope: ! I am just pondering some of these things. It is an issue that I have seen pop up a lot of late and when I saw it here on the forum I wanted to see what the thoughts of others are…I will also pray about it** because I want to know what these scriptures mean…why the Church up until around 1968 or so required us to wear headcoverings and than changed it. **I have searched for the reason why but I have not found anything with clarity. I was hoping others might have answers…
Just sharing my thoughts,
Shalom
 
“For the Church is subject to Christ, so also let the wives be to their husbands in all things. Husbands love your wives, as Christ also loved the church, and delivered himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life. …so ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself… This is a great sacrament.” I am fully aware that feminists dislike this passage because it speaks of obedience. Yet, under normal circumstances the father is head of the family. In this he reflects the priest who is “father” to the community, and both in turn reflect God who is “our Father in Heaven.” The father of the family is spiritually responsible for those under his care, and following the teaching of Our Lord, he can say: “if you love me you will obey my commandments.” He is of course himself under the obligation of obedience to Christ. He rules the family by “divine right,” – “right” being an older word for “law.” If he rules by other than divine right, that is, if he institutes his own private rules for those of God, he becomes a tyrant. If indeed the head of the family is to pattern his behavior after Christ, the woman should have little trouble in giving him obedience.The end result of such a relationship is that the family itself becomes a mini-Church, or a Nazareth in which the children can grow up “subject” to their parents as Jesus was to Mary and Joseph. St. Paul tells us in the next sentence that children are obliged to obey their parents. It will be argued that this is a rather “idealized” picture, but if the normal has become only an idealized picture in our age, this is indeed a tragedy, the fruits of which we see all around us.
 
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Patchunky:
Just curious, but WHY do you wear a necktie to Church? Is it mandated in Scripture?:hmmm:
No, I wear it out of respect. Head coverings are mandated in Scripture as you probably know.

Dan L
 
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TNT:
First:
No where is the reason given for head covering as being "because that was what women in her day wore!!".
As I recall, Lucia’s description of the “Lady from heaven” included a veil, and that was 1917…less than 70 years before the 1983 canon law was published. A law which simply ignored 2000 years of unbroken practice in obedience to Her own Scriptural witness.

Paul’s discourse on the reason for head covering is Theological as the prev post points out. Not a thing to do with “her day”. If it was common practice in “her day” why is Paul having to require it, unless there was a number of women NOT wearing head covering, and men wearing head covering (like jewish skull caps) in church? This would point to just the opposite of what you proclaim in : “what women in her day wore!!

Second:
There is no Scripture of the NT or OT that gives a theological requirement for “community ovens”, “common wells” or “togas”.
Therefore, bringing these up as comparative to the covered head in the Presence of God in Church is avoiding the the real issue. Making “straw man” arguments is not an argument at all.
The real issue is head covering as commanded by an Apostle himself. If this was only a custom of the time, why is it considered as revelation? Why did the Church practice it and also command it all the way to 1983?
The REAL reason for lifting the command (if it ever was) is explained in my signature yet again:
To destroy a Religion (and replace it), you must first sever its traditions.

Newchurch, by ignoring in slience the historical Scriptural rule of moral respect due to God, then sending out their “progressive goon squads” to belittle head covering, is that they can say “we didn’t officially say anything against Scripture”. This is typical “slithering theology”.

Of course the sheeple won’t see it that way, and that is what they rely on.
TNT: Clothing is clothing is clothing. God does not care about clothes as such.

A veil can be a sign of reverence, but it is only a sign, not reverence itself, which comes from the heart.

A cursory reading of First Corinthians should reveal that St. Paul is concerned with unifying the Church in Corinth; with ending rivalries, correcting errors, regularizing practices, and bringing it into line with the Jewish heritage of the Church. I doubt if St. Paul would assert that it was the specific clothing that mattered rather than a common attitude of reverence and submission to God.

Were the Church to make head-covering mandatory, all good Catholic women should submit to the authority of the Church.
However, re-instating the symbols of reverence will never produce the conversion of heart the Church needs today.

As I see it, lack of head-covering is not the main problem in the Church today; lack of Latin is not the main problem in the Church in the Church today; even lack of reverence is not the biggest problem in the Church today. The real problems in the Church today (from which the lack of reverence stem) are a) a general lack of catechesis and b) a lack of devotion and practice of the faith stemming from that lack of catechesis and a lack of zeal.

The tradition of the Church is not composed of human customs of clothing and speech; the tradition of the Church is Tradition; and I know that the Church will always cling to it because Christ has already won the victory.

I hope and pray that the Church in Her wisdom calls Her members first to a whole-hearted living out of their faith before She concerns Herself with clothing.

If that makes me a member of the “sheeple”, count me in.
 
It is one of the ways I show respect for God, for my fellow members, for my Church, and for myself pretty much in that order. I have thought about these things over the years. It isn’t just habit.

Dan L
 
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GregoryPalamas:
Head coverings are mandated in Scripture as you probably know.
What I know is that the Church no longer requires it. I choose not to make my own Protestant-style interpretation of scripture.
 
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Patchunky:
But out of respect for whom? Do YOU know???
Of course!!!
St Paul the Apostle explains it clearly:
“Every woman who prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered** dishonoreth** her head: “(Cor. 11:5).

Even the First Lady and the Secretary of State wore a veil at the pope’s funeral mass.
BTW:
WOULD YOU?
 
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rcn:
What I know is that the Church no longer requires it. I choose not to make my own Protestant-style interpretation of scripture.
Women took off their veils a decade before the 1983 “silent on the matter” canon law was issued!.
Who was Protestant then?
Now all you have to do is show us WHERE the Church said “headcoverings are no longer required”.
 
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TNT:
Now all you have to do is show us WHERE the Church said “headcoverings are no longer required”.
I’ll thank you not to phrase your questions in the form of a “demand”.

Your question (such as it is) has been asked and answered many times. As it is no longer in the new canon law, it is no longer required. Anyone who does so, does it completely on their own.
 
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TNT:
Women took off their veils a decade before the 1983 “silent on the matter” canon law was issued!.
Who was Protestant then?
Now all you have to do is show us WHERE the Church said “headcoverings are no longer required”.
Hey TNT, nice to see you posting more often. We need your efforts to make us think.

Let me guess… you were busy watching the playoffs, and now are too charitable to gloat about the Spurs taking the title away from my Pistons???

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/20_3_69.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/20_3_15.gif
 
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rcn:
What I know is that the Church no longer requires it. I choose not to make my own Protestant-style interpretation of scripture.
And I don’t intend to make a law about it one way or the other. I don’t have a Protestant style interpretation of Scripture on the matter. I’m not sure what to make of your posts either.

Dan L
 
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TNT:
Of course!!!
St Paul the Apostle explains it clearly:
“Every woman who prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered** dishonoreth** her head: “(Cor. 11:5).

Even the First Lady and the Secretary of State wore a veil at the pope’s funeral mass.
BTW:
WOULD YOU?
First of all, you REALLY should read the WHOLE thread before you respond to it…:tsktsk:

Secondly, I could NEVER be the First Lady since I’m by no means a LADY so I guess it doesn’t matter…:eek:
 
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MrS:
Hey TNT, nice to see you posting more often. We need your efforts to make us think.

Let me guess… you were busy watching the playoffs, and now are too charitable to gloat about the Spurs taking the title away from my Pistons???

smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/20_3_69.gif smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/20_3_15.gif
Spurs are awsome!. But Cotton planting is in, and the cows are near done birthing. Keeps you busy.
Unfortunately, we’re in for another hot drought not seen since 2000. Last year record June rain, this year, near-record dry June.
 
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