Healing misunderstandings and wounds through charitable dialogue

[Marybeloved]

I know plenty enough to impress some priests who have been begging me to teach at their catechism class.

Clearly the West needs prayers.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi MaryBeloved,

I’m not saying for you to do it again from scratch. I’m also not asking you to explain everything (or anything) that you did. Just the opposite really:

At this point, I’m not really interested in any addendums you’re (possibly) going to make to your answer. (I’m not exactly a captive audience you know.)

Or perhaps a better way to put it is that I’m withdrawing the question that I asked you.

 

[Marybeloved]

Hi MaryBeloved,

I’m not saying for you to do it again from scratch. I’m also not asking you to explain everything (or anything) that you did. Just the opposite really:

Or perhaps a better way to put it is that I’m withdrawing the question that I asked you.

Ok. But my apologies remain.

Peace

 

[lssanjose]

Dear brother ConstantineTG,

Are you learning about the East itself ONLY, or are your sources also inclined to give you a rather inaccurate understanding of Latin Catholicism in the process of their attempts to make the distinction? I have to tell you right now that upon reading your posts in the past several months insisting on the “worlds apart” view, you have shown very little understanding of Latin Catholic doctrines. I don’t know if it’s because you forgot what was taught you as a Latin Catholic, or because you are simply now more inclined to listen to non-Latins who know little or nothing about Latin Catholicism.

You really need to distinguish between the two (i.e., learning about the East for its own sake, on the one hand, and learning about the differences with the West through the eyes of Easterns who know little or nothing about the Latins, on the other), or you end up doing the same thing to the Latins that you claim the Latins are doing to Easterns.

Blessings,
Marduk

Brother, I don’t think it’s a matter of being callous to Latin Catholics, or Latin Catholic theology. But, there are things defining traditions: theology, practice, and attitude. In your case you’re oriental catholic. Everything a Catholic does - whether from a Latin, Eastern, or Oriental perspective - is driven by those three things. That’s why I, now, think rite is a term doing an injustice to each of our respective churches. It’s not so much the term, or word, rite, itself. It’s more of how it’s received, perceived, interpreted, and so on. When people typically see the word rite, they think physical expressions, of the same thing.

Tradition, to me, seems more encompassing. It’s like, the martial arts realm of style vs. art. The latter encompasses more items of interest, than the former. Tradition gives the what, how, and very importantly the why of such emphases. In the case of Eastern Catholics, there are reasons why their practices are what they are. Some, if not a good majority of those, are theologically-grounded. Take the separation of mind/heart. In the Eastern ethos, this divorce, due to the fall, is something of interest for those in the East, and I will wildly guess, it goes for the Oriental Catholics, too. In some sense, contemplative prayer is an issue among some, in the Eastern ranks. The goal in spiritual practice (from what I’m reading so far) is to quiet the mind. More aptly, bring the mind closer into communion in the heart, in the pre-fallen state. But, the heart takes precedence.

This isn’t emphasized so much, if at all, in Western thought. It’s pretty eastern to the point of some possibly labeling it hokey. I can totally see where they’re coming from that point. The emphasis, in the East, and may I dare say orient, too, is being in the present moment. Reading through that part of Webber’s book makes me want to read up on the idea of unfettered mind. In Zen, there’s the principle of no-mind, no-way. Eastern Christianity has a similar mentality.

 

[mardukm]

I am a Latin Catholic of 33 years and am been a trained catechist in the Latin faith.

So why is it that Latin Catholics often contradict your statements about Latin Catholicism? I myself studied Latin Catholicism so I could make sure I was not coming into communion with a heretical Church, and I have found a lot of your posts about Latin Catholic doctrine to be inaccurate.

There is a different spirituality and doctrinal emphasis in East and West (we agree on that), but you always make it seem like what is in the East is*** totally*** missing in the West, and vice-versa, so as to justify your “worlds apart” view. That’s the problem I see with your posts.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

Clearly the West needs prayers.

Indeed. My apologies I am not up to your level of theologial expertise.

So why is it that Latin Catholics often contradict your statements about Latin Catholicism? I myself studied Latin Catholicism so I could make sure I was not coming into communion with a heretical Church, and I have found a lot of your posts about Latin Catholic doctrine to be inaccurate.

There is a different spirituality and doctrinal emphasis in East and West, but you always make it seem like what is in the East is*** totally*** missing in the West, and vice-versa, so as to justify your “worlds apart” view. That’s the problem

Blessings,
Marduk

Maybe I’ve gone past the polemics. Also with me, I have lived the Latin faith for so long. The Latin faith is not just a bunch of theological writings or canons or sections of the CCC. I lived it.

 

[Peter_J]

I am a Latin Catholic of 33 years and am been a trained catechist in the Latin faith.

In addition to my above answer, I now explain via the Eastern perspective because that is the faith I now live.

Without wishing to rehash your conversation with mardukm and MaryBeloved, I would like to chime in that I share some of the concern they’ve expressed above.

Let me say, first, that I’m quite prepared to grant that the East (or “Easternness”) belongs more properly, as we might say, to the Orthodox. But it seems to me that you sometimes go much further than that, essentially speaking as though “Eastern” and “Orthodox” mean the same thing, which is where I’m concerned.

 

[lssanjose]

So why is it that Latin Catholics often contradict your statements about Latin Catholicism? I myself studied Latin Catholicism so I could make sure I was not coming into communion with a heretical Church, and I have found a lot of your posts about Latin Catholic doctrine to be inaccurate.

There is a different spirituality and doctrinal emphasis in East and West (we agree on that), but you always make it seem like what is in the East is*** totally*** missing in the West, and vice-versa, so as to justify your “worlds apart” view. That’s the problem I see with your posts.

Blessings,
Marduk

And, brother, therein may lie the problem. I was being brought up in a time, where it was all about memorization of this, or that. Definitely, there’s a time and place for that kind of learning. But it didn’t surprise me when most of those within my generation aren’t as spiritually fulfilled when they go to mass - or worse, left the faith entirely, due to the way(s) they were brought up in the faith. I’ve learned more about relationship with God; and obedience, from having conversations with my old housemate, who happened to be Lutheran; and my old co-worker, who was an evangelical protestant. Their mentalities were very Eastern, without claiming any association to it.

With the advent of changes over the last decade, or so, things have changed in how people are brought up in the faith (I’m hoping for the better, since I didn’t really get a chance to see full-on how people were being brought up nowadays).

 

[Peter_J]

Ok. But my apologies remain.

Peace

Well thanks. Peace to you too.

 

[lssanjose]

Indeed. My apologies I am not up to your level of theologial expertise.

Maybe I’ve gone past the polemics. Also with me, I have lived the Latin faith for so long. The Latin faith is not just a bunch of theological writings or canons or sections of the CCC. I lived it.

I think how to live the faith is missing, still. Too much lip service, and no real “training.” Role-play is powerful, yet ignored.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Without wishing to rehash your conversation with mardukm and MaryBeloved, I would like to chime in that I share some of the concern they’ve expressed above.

Let me say, first, that I’m quite prepared to grant that the East (or “Easternness”) belong more properly, as we might say, to the Orthodox. But it seems to me that you sometimes go much further than that, essentially speaking as though “East” and “Orthodox” mean the same thing, which is where I’m concerned.

The Orthodox certainly do not see themselves as “East”. It is an exclusively Catholic Church term. When the Catholic Church says “East” it more or less often refers to the Eastern Orthodox.

 

[Marybeloved]

Indeed. My apologies I am not up to your level of theologial expertise.

No need for apologies. I’m not a theological expert, just a Catholic who has, as you put it ‘‘bothered to learn what the church actually believes’’.

Maybe I’ve gone past the polemics.

Maybe you’ve driven right into them, that’s also a possibility.

Also with me, I have lived the Latin faith for so long. The Latin faith is not just a bunch of theological writings or canons or sections of the CCC. I lived it.

As do I. My faith is not just a bunch of writings. I doubt that is true for most Catholics here. But if you are living with an erroneous understanding then you may not be living it properly. Afterall, there’s many Catholics who disbelieve the real presence who could claim to have been living it (the faith) for 40 years.

 

[Marybeloved]

I think how to live the faith is missing, still. Too much lip service, and no real “training.” Role-play is powerful, yet ignored.

See? There’s a legitimate criticism. I agree with you wholeheartedly. But surely, you realize that the Western church at present is in the middle of a big crisis. It’s about the liberal ‘‘take over’’ of the council of VII, or rather hijacking of VII and replacing it with ‘‘the spirit of VII’’, and the church taking too long to respond…with disastrous results (Poor to zero catechesis, dissent and rebellion in the church, an excruciating sex abuse scandal, shortage of vocations, an attempt to throw away the history of the church pre-VII etc- you get the picture). But that’s not about a difference in approach. Believe me that is NOT the Latin approach, it is NOT the historical Western approach at all. It’s a crisis, it will pass, the Church will triumph as she always does, with treasures gained in the process for some future generations centuries to come.

 

[ConstantineTG]

No need for apologies. I’m not a theological expert, just a Catholic who has, as you put it ‘‘bothered to learn what the church actually believes’’. Maybe you’ve driven right into them, that’s also a possibility. As do I. My faith is not just a bunch of writings. I doubt that is true for most Catholics here. But if you are living with an erroneous understanding then you may not be living it properly. Afterall, there’s many Catholics who disbelieve the real presence who could claim to have been living it (the faith) for 40 years.

I take my faith very seriously. Otherwise I wouldn’t be wasting my time here. If you do not want to believe what I say, it is okay. Many of the Jews of the First Century didn’t believe Jesus, who do I think I am to be able to convince other people more effectively?

It is what it is. You accuse me of buying into polemics because I say things you do not agree with. Don’t you think that it is you who have bias to think that the truth may be somewhere else other than the one you think you are holding onto? Thing is, I’ve been to both sides of the fence, have you? How can you know that I’m wrong if you do not even know where I’m coming from?

 

[Peter_J]

The Orthodox certainly do not see themselves as “East”. It is an exclusively Catholic Church term. When the Catholic Church says “East” it more or less often refers to the Eastern Orthodox.

I’m going to come back later and respond to this (I think I’ve spent a little too much time on this thread already this afternoon ). At the moment I just want to say, Can you elaborate a bit on your first sentence?

Incidentally, I don’t know if it matters much, but there was a slight typo in my post:

Without wishing to rehash your conversation with mardukm and MaryBeloved, I would like to chime in that I share some of the concern they’ve expressed above.

Let me say, first, that I’m quite prepared to grant that the East (or “Easternness”) belongs more properly, as we might say, to the Orthodox. But it seems to me that you sometimes go much further than that, essentially speaking as though -]“East”/-] “Eastern” and “Orthodox” mean the same thing, which is where I’m concerned.

 

[mardukm]

And, brother, therein may lie the problem. I was being brought up in a time, where it was all about memorization of this, or that. Definitely, there’s a time and place for that kind of learning. But it didn’t surprise me when most of those within my generation aren’t as spiritually fulfilled when they go to mass - or worse, left the faith entirely, due to the way(s) they were brought up in the faith. I’ve learned more about relationship with God; and obedience, from having conversations with my old housemate, who happened to be Lutheran; and my old co-worker, who was an evangelical protestant. Their mentalities were very Eastern, without claiming any association to it.

With the advent of changes over the last decade, or so, things have changed in how people are brought up in the faith (I’m hoping for the better, since I didn’t really get a chance to see full-on how people were being brought up nowadays).

Yes, I agree. It’s how you live the faith. I find very little difference between an Eastern who lives their faith fully and a Latin who lives their faith fully (and an Oriental who lives their faith fully, for that matter).

A big part of it is in how the Faith is explained, and the differences are poignant, especially on the Internet. But we should always distinguish between the Faith itself, on the one hand, and how it is explained, on the other. Explanations can be heady, didactic, and juridical. We should always be ready to ask even of such explanations, “what exactly do you mean?” We need to go to that deeper level, for It is there that we can discover where our unity in Faith exists.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[ConstantineTG]

I’m going to come back later and respond to this (I think I’ve spent a little too much time on this thread already this afternoon ). At the moment I just want to say, Can you elaborate a bit on your first sentence?

Incidentally, I don’t know if it matters much, but there was a slight typo in my post:

As Catholics when we say “Eastern” faith, we think “Orthodox”. But the Orthodox just see their faith as “orthodox”, in the true meaning of the word. There is nothing “eastern” about their faith, though admittedly because of how the terminology has been used for quite some time, some of them use it. Kind of like how some First Nations/Native Americans do actually refer to themselves as “Indians” even though we sort of treat it as non-PC these days. It is not an admission that they are Indians but that it has been used for a while and it stuck and they just don’t take offense to it.

 

[Marybeloved]

As Catholics when we say “Eastern” faith, we think “Orthodox”. But the Orthodox just see their faith as “orthodox”, in the true meaning of the word. There is nothing “eastern” about their faith, though admittedly because of how the terminology has been used for quite some time, some of them use it. Kind of like how some First Nations/Native Americans do actually refer to themselves as “Indians” even though we sort of treat it as non-PC these days. It is not an admission that they are Indians but that it has been used for a while and it stuck and they just don’t take offense to it.

We also mean Eastern Catholics, though, not just Orthodox.

 

[ConstantineTG]

We also mean Eastern Catholics, though, not just Orthodox.

Eastern Catholics too is a bit of a misnomer, one reason why many do not subscribe to the “two lung” theory. Does it mean a Ukrainian Catholic is the same as an Ethiopian Catholic? Or a Maronite? Or a Chaldean?

 

[mardukm]

There is a great big difference in adoring Christ while you are receiving the Eucharist, than making the Eucharist the focus of your worship. Christ instructed us to eat and drink the Eucharist. Why do we want to do anything else with it?

And there’s a great big difference between saying “this is how Westerns do it, and this is how Easterns do it” and “What the Westerns are doing is wrong.”

Which statement most accurately reflects your pov on this matter?

Blessings,
Marduk