Health Care Costs

[Bluegoat]

No one in America is denied medical care, even those who did not earn it. Unfortunately that has driven up costs in part because of millions of aliens who were not admitted into Canada. When people complain about not having free health care, I often suggest they move to Canada, The consistent response is that Canada rejects them. Seems like Canadians have a thing against pre existing conditions.



And why shouldn’t wealth by better access?

Are you maintaining that’s a Christian position?

 

[royal_archer]

Are you maintaining that’s a Christian position?

Canada is not being very Christian by expecting that we care for these people instead of them.

 

[Bluegoat]

Canada is not being very Christian by expecting that we care for these people instead of them.

Ok, so you want Canada to provide health care for American citizens?

 

[markomalley]

Ok, so you want Canada to provide health care for American citizens?

Seems like a lot of folks think it is the States’ responsibility to provide for the health care of a lot of non-US citizens.

 

[Bluegoat]

Seems like a lot of folks think it is the States’ responsibility to provide for the health care of a lot of non-US citizens.

Yes, although they are at least actually in the country! I believe actually there have been a few attempts to claim refugee status due to lack of health care, but it failed to meet the criteria. Normally citizen, refugees, and landed immigrants have access here. Although I have never known people to be turned away - one family who had no access went to the clinic I worked at, and their doctor never got any payment. They used to bring him baked goods though.

The case in the US with illegal immigrants seems complicated with no adequate solutions. On the one hand, they seem essential to keep the American economy running. If every illegal working in America was sent home, there would be a lot of empty jobs, the ones most Americans don’t want.

As far as I know, no one has a good effective solution yet for the problem of illegal immigration and its associated economic issues.

But once they are there, working for American citizens, for wages American’s wouldn’t accept, what do you do about their health care? (or workers rights, etc…) It seems that those who hire illegals should be responsible for their health care, but that just doesn’t work, for obvious reasons. Leaving people with no way to access care also seems wrong, especially when society to some extent turns a blind eye to their existence.

It’s a problem, but I have no clue what would be a better approach.

 

[markomalley]

Yes, although they are at least actually in the country! I believe actually there have been a few attempts to claim refugee status due to lack of health care, but it failed to meet the criteria. Normally citizen, refugees, and landed immigrants have access here. Although I have never known people to be turned away - one family who had no access went to the clinic I worked at, and their doctor never got any payment. They used to bring him baked goods though.

The case in the US with illegal immigrants seems complicated with no adequate solutions. On the one hand, they seem essential to keep the American economy running. If every illegal working in America was sent home, there would be a lot of empty jobs, the ones most Americans don’t want.

As far as I know, no one has a good effective solution yet for the problem of illegal immigration and its associated economic issues.

But once they are there, working for American citizens, for wages American’s wouldn’t accept, what do you do about their health care? (or workers rights, etc…) It seems that those who hire illegals should be responsible for their health care, but that just doesn’t work, for obvious reasons. Leaving people with no way to access care also seems wrong, especially when society to some extent turns a blind eye to their existence.

It’s a problem, but I have no clue what would be a better approach.

Well, this is not the thread to discuss immigration policy…having said that you have some good grasp on the problems…

And when the US had less than 5% unemployment (8.4% including discouraged and underemployed workers) during the Bush administration, the situation was clearly different than now with 10.4% unemployment (17.9% including discouraged and underemployed workers),

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(In case somebody questions whether the numbers are accurate or not).

 

[royal_archer]

Ok, so you want Canada to provide health care for American citizens?

No, Canada can’t even provide health care to it’s own citizens, even the ones who have earned it.

No one should be forced to provide health care for another.

But Canadians need to shut up about universal health care if they are not willing to provide universal health care to aliens like what has been happening in the US

 

[royal_archer]

Yes, although they are at least actually in the country! I believe actually there have been a few attempts to claim refugee status due to lack of health care, but it failed to meet the criteria. Normally citizen, refugees, and landed immigrants have access here. Although I have never known people to be turned away - one family who had no access went to the clinic I worked at, and their doctor never got any payment. They used to bring him baked goods though.

The case in the US with illegal immigrants seems complicated with no adequate solutions. On the one hand, they seem essential to keep the American economy running. If every illegal working in America was sent home, there would be a lot of empty jobs, the ones most Americans don’t want.

As far as I know, no one has a good effective solution yet for the problem of illegal immigration and its associated economic issues.

But once they are there, working for American citizens, for wages American’s wouldn’t accept, what do you do about their health care? (or workers rights, etc…) It seems that those who hire illegals should be responsible for their health care, but that just doesn’t work, for obvious reasons. Leaving people with no way to access care also seems wrong, especially when society to some extent turns a blind eye to their existence.

It’s a problem, but I have no clue what would be a better approach.

Simple solution:

If you can’t get healthcare with the job you have, get a different job. Don’t choose a job that people don’t want to pay decent money for and then complain you are not making enough money.

 

[cynic]

Simple solution:

If you can’t get healthcare with the job you have, get a different job. Don’t choose a job that people don’t want to pay decent money for and then complain you are not making enough money.

And what if you’ve been living from pay day to pay day, get made redundant, and have to find work as quickly as possible? If very low money is being offered then it’s because workers can still be found to work for it, and some job-seekers will end up doing that work, getting those wages,

 

[Sophia86]

You should all come over here to the UK, things are very different. Have you heard of the NHS?

 

[Bluegoat]

Simple solution:

If you can’t get healthcare with the job you have, get a different job. Don’t choose a job that people don’t want to pay decent money for and then complain you are not making enough money.

Do you think your society should eliminate such jobs? Not have maids, home care workers, cab drivers, nannies, etc? Or do you support having an underclass who ‘deserves’ to have no health care and benefits? Or would it be better to really enforce a living minimum wage? That might well have the effect of eliminating such positions in any case I suppose.

 

[Bluegoat]

No, Canada can’t even provide health care to it’s own citizens, even the ones who have earned it.

No one should be forced to provide health care for another.

But Canadians need to shut up about universal health care if they are not willing to provide universal health care to aliens like what has been happening in the US

We don’t force people to provide health care, we tell our government that is what we want them to do, and so they do it. And I am not sure why you keep asserting we don’t provide health care for our citizens, it’s silly.

We just don’t have a similar situation with illegal aliens to deal with, and they don’t form an integral part of our economy. When such people appear, they are cared for in my experience. In the US, as a society, you depend on illegal aliens work to make your economy run. When that happens, as a society, you begin to have responsibilities to people. Each man as an island is a myth - no one is really self-made. When you take a ride in a taxi you have created a kind of connection with the person driving it, small as that connection might be. He is now your neighbour, and he is giving of his time and substance for your service, and you owe it to him to recognize his humanity. If you, as a society, want taxi cabs, or whatever, available at reasonable prices, as a society need to make it possible for cab drivers to live in accordance with human dignity given by God. THere are probably many ways to accomplish this.

But your view of health care etc isn’t even based on accurate facts, so I don’t really think it is worth discussing it with you.

 

[royal_archer]

And what if you’ve been living from pay day to pay day, get made redundant, and have to find work as quickly as possible? If very low money is being offered then it’s because workers can still be found to work for it, and some job-seekers will end up doing that work, getting those wages,

I have been in that situation several times. I have learned that if you are willing to work longer harder and smarter than others and can get along with your boss, opportunities always arise.

 

[royal_archer]

Do you think your society should eliminate such jobs? Not have maids, home care workers, cab drivers, nannies, etc? Or do you support having an underclass who ‘deserves’ to have no health care and benefits? Or would it be better to really enforce a living minimum wage? That might well have the effect of eliminating such positions in any case I suppose.

Or people can hold out for better wages or move into jobs that pay better. Most of those jobs that pay minimum wage do so only because people are willing to work for those wages (teenagers, dependent spouses, etc.)

 

[royal_archer]

We don’t force people to provide health care, we tell our government that is what we want them to do, and so they do it. And I am not sure why you keep asserting we don’t provide health care for our citizens, it’s silly.

You do not have an involuntary tax system? Is there some government owned gold mine that is funding it? Is it being funded purely by voluntary donations? I bet you are funding it by forcing people to pay excessive taxes Therefore you are forcing those tax payers to provide health care.

If you are providing adequate health care for your citizens, why are they coming down here and paying for healthcare out of their own pocket?

We just don’t have a similar situation with illegal aliens to deal with, and they don’t form an integral part of our economy. When such people appear, they are cared for in my experience. In the US, as a society, you depend on illegal aliens work to make your economy run. When that happens, as a society, you begin to have responsibilities to people. Each man as an island is a myth - no one is really self-made. When you take a ride in a taxi you have created a kind of connection with the person driving it, small as that connection might be. He is now your neighbour, and he is giving of his time and substance for your service, and you owe it to him to recognize his humanity. If you, as a society, want taxi cabs, or whatever, available at reasonable prices, as a society need to make it possible for cab drivers to live in accordance with human dignity given by God. THere are probably many ways to accomplish this.

Right people should pay taxi drivers in accordance with a mutually agreed to contract.

But your view of health care etc isn’t even based on accurate facts, so I don’t really think it is worth discussing it with you.

So what are those alleged innaccurate facts?

 

[cynic]

I have been in that situation several times. I have learned that if you are willing to work longer harder and smarter than others and can get along with your boss, opportunities always arise.

And what about the “others”? Your point of view requires some to fail (and presumably not be able to afford insurance).

 

[royal_archer]

And what about the “others”? Your point of view requires some to fail (and presumably not be able to afford insurance).

No one has to fail, they just have to find their niche. If everyone put in an honnest day’s effort, we wouldn’t have these financial challenges and their would be plenty of employment opportunities for all.

 

[cynic]

No one has to fail, they just have to find their niche. If everyone put in an honnest day’s effort, we wouldn’t have these financial challenges and their would be plenty of employment opportunities for all.

perhaps if employers bothered to set proper productivity targets for their workers and paid them decently once they’re met.

 

[Swan]

No one has to fail, they just have to find their niche. If everyone put in an honnest day’s effort, we wouldn’t have these financial challenges and their would be plenty of employment opportunities for all.

In an ideal world, this would be true but our world is far from ideal. There are people who work 2 or more jobs, all at minimum wage, to support their families. They never had the opportunity to learn a trade or go to college. It takes all their time and energy just to scrape by. It happens every day.

 

[royal_archer]

perhaps if employers bothered to set proper productivity targets for their workers and paid them decently once they’re met.

Productivity targets??? never worked with the union have you.