Health care: is it a human right?

[goofyjim]

But what about the about the able bodied people who can actually work, but won’t because they know they don’t have to. They can just pay a doctor to say they are disabled and cannot work, and then they get disability compensation. I see them every day in the city. They have enough strength to stand in line in 20 degree weather to wait for their food stamps, but they can’t get a job? I don’t mean to sound heartless. I understand there are people who need help. But I just see so many people who are taking advantage of the system.

Disabilities cover minds as well as bodies. If they are able to work then they should. But you don’t just pay a doctor to call you disabled. And what you don’t know is what is going on their brain that prevents them from working. To just assume someone standing in 20 degree weather can automatically work is wrong. And just because there are those who abuse the system doesn’t warrant scrapping the system and leaving those who need the help with nothing.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I lived in Belgium for two years and their system is great. No citizen worries about not being able to affort health care even when they lose their job. Dr visit was 20 Euros and Dr would come to your house for $25 Euros as they did not want contagious patients in their office. The Dr’s did not make >$200k/year either. They were very practical and used a combination of homopathic and new medicine. We have been driven to “magic drug” society. When we show up with cholesterol of 300 and BP of 160/100 and way overweight what is wrong? Must need a new drug? Engineers in the Belgium lab said that homopathic was more effective and what they looked for SECOND after they examined their own lifestyle. There was not a single person in lab or 200 overweight…except me…I know I would be healthier if I lost 50 pounds, but instead my DR wants to give me the latest drugs which I refuse.

The boundaries are hard to set but if we keep the basic principle of value life, one of the essential messages from our Pope then we need to provide health care and not count on the “mysterious charitable organization” to save everyone. I personally know people falling through the cracks right now and it stinks.

Thank you,manualman! Healthcare is a human need, but how far do we go. I think if people in the states would actuallly look at and examine, the European model, and how it impacts all citizens in a country, and examine the quality of care these people are receiving, they may be more qualified to make an opinion.

 

[marcylee]

Disabilities cover minds as well as bodies. If they are able to work then they should. But you don’t just pay a doctor to call you disabled. And what you don’t know is what is going on their brain that prevents them from working. To just assume someone standing in 20 degree weather can automatically work is wrong. And just because there are those who abuse the system doesn’t warrant scrapping the system and leaving those who need the help with nothing.

If a person can stand and walk, they can do some type of work. And so we should punish the people who are actually working and doing their part by making them pay for the people who can work and don’t because the government is paying for them to NOT work? What is the incentive for them to obtain gainful employment? and don’t try to pull the mental illness card on me, because I know all about that…

 

[marcylee]

I lived in Belgium for two years and their system is great. No citizen worries about not being able to affort health care even when they lose their job. Dr visit was 20 Euros and Dr would come to your house for $25 Euros as they did not want contagious patients in their office. The Dr’s did not make >$200k/year either. They were very practical and used a combination of homopathic and new medicine. We have been driven to “magic drug” society. When we show up with cholesterol of 300 and BP of 160/100 and way overweight what is wrong? Must need a new drug? Engineers in the Belgium lab said that homopathic was more effective and what they looked for SECOND after they examined their own lifestyle. There was not a single person in lab or 200 overweight…except me…I know I would be healthier if I lost 50 pounds, but instead my DR wants to give me the latest drugs which I refuse.

The boundaries are hard to set but if we keep the basic principle of value life, one of the essential messages from our Pope then we need to provide health care and not count on the “mysterious charitable organization” to save everyone. I personally know people falling through the cracks right now and it stinks.

Hi Leroy, I understand that many people feel we need to help people who are less privileged than ourselves. But why do those of us who take responsibility for our lives, who exercise and eat well, have to pay for the healthcare of those who choose to eat Big Macs every day. And please don’t insult my intelligence by telling me that fast food is cheaper than apples

 

[LeroyCRHP]

I would not insult your intelligence or anyone else as that would be wrong on my part. I agree with you and example of the surge of type II diabeties could be turned with simple dietary changes. I consider fast food almost a national enemy. I think in 10 years they will have to change or they will be declared illegal based on what I see now. An apple and healthy food is much cheaper than fast food anyway. We should value LIFE, ie PRO-LIFE means respect for all life and if a 4 year old child has leukemia and his dad is great as is his mom, but is out of work that should be covered…very specific example I know of at this moment.

Ever see the movie “super size me”? IT will take a lot of education to reverse where we are now and what people consider as “normal”.

Hi Leroy, I understand that many people feel we need to help people who are less privileged than ourselves. But why do those of us who take responsibility for our lives, who exercise and eat well, have to pay for the healthcare of those who choose to eat Big Macs every day. And please don’t insult my intelligence by telling me that fast food is cheaper than apples

 

[marcylee]

I would not insult your intelligence or anyone else as that would be wrong on my part. I agree with you and example of the surge of type II diabeties could be turned with simple dietary changes. I consider fast food almost a national enemy. I think in 10 years they will have to change or they will be declared illegal based on what I see now. An apple and healthy food is much cheaper than fast food anyway. We should value LIFE, ie PRO-LIFE means respect for all life and if a 4 year old child has leukemia and his dad is great as is his mom, but is out of work that should be covered…very specific example I know of at this moment.

Ever see the movie “super size me”? IT will take a lot of education to reverse where we are now and what people consider as “normal”.

Hi Leroy! Education is a start , none the less. Government controls will not work. People will rebel. We’ll be having bootleg burgers.

 

[goofyjim]

If a person can stand and walk, they can do some type of work. And so we should punish the people who are actually working and doing their part by making them pay for the people who can work and don’t because the government is paying for them to NOT work? What is the incentive for them to obtain gainful employment? and don’t try to pull the mental illness card on me, because I know all about that…

Then you obviously don’t. Nobody is trying to “pull the mental illness card” on you but there are severe enough illnesses of the mind that prevent one from working. Try focusing on a job when you hear voices all day. It can’t be done and they are ina catch 22 because they need medication to treat the voices before they can work but under the heartless proposals here they need to work before they can get insurance to cover the medication. Shouldn’t have to be.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

After prohibition that would be a crazy move. You have to change the attitude of people. When I see the attitude of Europe on fast food vs the US they have the right attitude. Only the youth has been brainwashed by the fast food companies. In Antwerp there was one McDonalds and couple of Quick fast food restaurants in a city of ~500,000. Mostly teenagers and tourists that eat there. Most people in the lab I worked would say “never been in fast food place don’t see any need to ever be in one”.

At some point in time people will look back and call this fast food period of time completely destructive.

Obviously prevention is much cheaper than cure but we need to offer a solid basic health care package to everyone.

Hi Leroy! Education is a start , none the less. Government controls will not work. People will rebel. We’ll be having bootleg burgers.

 

[LeroyCRHP]

Often I have to look at the first post to make sure I am on topic and your post is Great Mimi!

We really must value all life and not start culling people as worthy of health care or not.

Today, we were given a flier: Principles for Health Care Reform from the Catholic Bishops fo the United States; date at bottom says June 18, 1993 for this statement:

“Heath care is more than a commodity; it is a basic human right, an essential safeguard of human life and dignity. We believe our people’s health care should not depend on where they work, how much their parents earn or where they live.”

This would presumably cover unborn infants in the womb.

Question: Is health care REALLY a basic human right?
Should it be considered so?

It seems to me that, if national health care ever comes to be, the Catholic bishops will have a real hard time maintaining Catholic principles which protect human life at all stages. I’m just trying to be realistic here.

Another part of the flier:

Be a Part of the Debate within your state:
– Contact the (state’s) Catholic conference or diocesan offices to learn where you can locate information on various health care reform proposals.
–Contact state legislators to voice your support for health care reform using the principles put forth by the Bishops. (Come prepared next weekend to write a brief account of a health care situation – your own or someone you know.)

By NEXT weekend? I wonder how many people even read this paper?

Did anyone else get this with their bulletin this weekend?

Mimi

 

[jman507]

The thing to do is to stop all innovation, and maybe even forget some stuff while we are at it. That way we can afford to give health care to everyone and give equal treatment. I suppose when we find that tree that grows new effective pharmcuticals, good new editions of textbooks, all the food we need, unlimited clean effecient fuel, new roads, and protectes us from any national security threats we can afford to be as idealistic as we want.

 

[shannin]

Is socialization of health care a step forward or a step backwards? What I want to know is who’s going to protect the rights of the unborn after they’ve socialized health care in this country?

 

[JuneBug72]

If a person can stand and walk, they can do some type of work. And so we should punish the people who are actually working and doing their part by making them pay for the people who can work and don’t because the government is paying for them to NOT work? What is the incentive for them to obtain gainful employment? and don’t try to pull the mental illness card on me, because I know all about that…

What is the “mental illness card?”

 

[bkropp]

Good analogy. Health care is a human necessity like food and shelter. We don’t hand out mansions or gourmet food for just anyone who asks.

I think we ought to take a similar attitude towards health care. Basic preventative care, ER and any drugs out long enough to be generic could be covered by the basic national coverage.

Specialists, surgeries and new drugs would only be available to those with insurance. I wish the idea were mine, but I got it from a Canadian dissatisfied with his country’s system and looking for a better way.

The problem with this statement is that the emergency room does not typically save people’s lives (unless the person needs emergency resusitation). That is just where they triage people to surgury, followed by post anesthesia unit, followed by intensive care, followed by several thousand dollars of a bill. I am not saying that I have a better solution to the problem. I am just saying that life saving is the real moral issue, and life saving treatment is VERY expensive. How are we going to get to the point were we can say that every human life is to be valued equally? That is the seemingly impossible problem with the health care debate.

 

[Oscarthecat]

Today, we were given a flier: Principles for Health Care Reform from the Catholic Bishops fo the United States; date at bottom says June 18, 1993 for this statement:

“Heath care is more than a commodity; it is a basic human right, an essential safeguard of human life and dignity. We believe our people’s health care should not depend on where they work, how much their parents earn or where they live.”

This would presumably cover unborn infants in the womb.

Question: Is health care REALLY a basic human right?
Should it be considered so?

It seems to me that, if national health care ever comes to be, the Catholic bishops will have a real hard time maintaining Catholic principles which protect human life at all stages. I’m just trying to be realistic here.

Another part of the flier:

Be a Part of the Debate within your state:
– Contact the (state’s) Catholic conference or diocesan offices to learn where you can locate information on various health care reform proposals.
–Contact state legislators to voice your support for health care reform using the principles put forth by the Bishops. (Come prepared next weekend to write a brief account of a health care situation – your own or someone you know.)

By NEXT weekend? I wonder how many people even read this paper?

Did anyone else get this with their bulletin this weekend?

Mimi

I think people are very confused about what it means to call something a “basic human right,” especially in the United States and Europe, because we have come to believe it is the responsibility of the government to provide all that we cannot provide for ourselves.

First of all, there are different types of rights. There are natural rights, which are those conditions proper to the state of being a human person, such as the condition of being alive. These rights are intrinsic parts of the human condition, and as such they cannot be provided to us, but can be infringed upon. The easiest example of this is our right to life- it is the natural state of all human persons, but it can be taken away. Another example is the condition of free will, which is natural to us as human persons- it cannot be given by other human beings, but it can be infringed upon.

Then there are human rights which are not natural to our state as human persons- those that require the use of goods and/or services which we can only have through interacting with others. There are called “positive” rights, because they require some action or intervention to be realized. As such, these are only “rights” insofar as they are actually possible. For example, while I do have a right to life, I do not have a right to be given a guaranteed cure for cancer because no such thing exists. Likewise, I do not have a right to something that I cannot provide for myself, because such a right places an obligation on another person which itself may restrict their rights. Similarly, I don’t have a right to restrict the natural rights of another person in the pursuit of my

This is where the Church gets into the issue of balancing rights and responsibilities. First, we have a responsibility not to infringe upon the natural rights of other human beings (Thou shall not kill). Second, God is very clear He holds us responsible for providing for the “positive rights” of others when they are unable to provide for themselves.

When the Church says “access to healthcare is a basic human right,” they are expressing that we, as Catholics, have a personal responsibility to make sure healthcare available to those who do not have access to it.

**Where this all goes wrong, as I said earlier, is HOW we ought to act on this responsibility. **

Some people say we ought to infringe upon the rights of others by forcing everyone to contribute to some government healthcare plan whether they want to or not, and then allowing the government to determine the terms and conditions by which this healthcare plan will work.

Others recognize that God does not want us to force His will on others, or contract out our moral responsibilities to the government, but rather continue to personally exercise kindness and charity in our own lives as examples to others in the hope that they, too, will freely choose to follow God’s will by fulfilling their moral responsibility to care to the poor and the sick along with us.

 

[Mimi]

Thank you all for the commentary. Many interesting points to consider.

Oscarthecat wrote, in part:

When the Church says “access to healthcare is a basic human right,” they are expressing that we, as Catholics, have a personal responsibility to make sure healthcare available to those who do not have access to it.

Where this all goes wrong, as I said earlier, is HOW we ought to act on this responsibility.

Exactly.

BUT – no one has addressed that this move toward socialized health care (as it seems to me) is what is being promoted by the council of bishops. The year the quote I stated in the OP was 1993. (i.e., “health care is … a basic human right…”)
How can all the Principles for Health Care Reform be met when the govt. is misspending so much $$ already?

There are now “interfaith community organizations” which are numerous in some states (MA, CA, NY, WI, NM) and are also pushing for providing things for illegal immigrants who may have no incentive to be integrated into American society
– not that I want to insert that into this discussion –
which are endorsed by (at least some) bishops. I know of Catholic parishes involved in these groups (I call them Alinsky-style organizations because they share a common foundation.)

I gotta ask: What does this mean for Catholics who don’t like to see this concerted push toward Socialized Everything??

There will need to be a 2- or 3- tier system if Catholics and other people who see abortion (and related Life issues) as evil. For sure, any govt. program will include them as a basic right. BTW, this was suggested in the flier; called “pluralism”. I just don’t see how this will be possible to achieve.

So – I think our bishops need to hear from us that we cannot and will not allow the govt. to use our tax money for anti-life evils; BUT it already has and seems to not care that a majortiy think abortion is wrong.

I know we must keep fighting it.

God bless, and hope you are healthy.
Mimi

 

[Viki63]

So, Mimi, do you think Medicare and Medicaid are failures?
These are programs provided by the government that provide healthcare to elderly people and the disabled.
It seems to work fairly well as far as it goes.
What’s wrong with extending it to the whole country?

In my opinion, the problem is the insurance companies, who pay big bucks to their officers while specializing in refusing care to the insured.
Some other countries provide basic health care to all citizens, and do it without going broke, by paying for it out of taxes. The taxes are a little higher, but no one goes bankrupt just because they get sick, which often happens in the US.

The next big thing is preventive care. We all need to quit eating starch and sugar and stick to vegetables and protein, and get some exercise. That would eliminate 50% of our diseases.

 

[Oscarthecat]

In my opinion, the problem is the insurance companies, who pay big bucks to their officers while specializing in refusing care to the insured.

The problem isn’t insurance companies, and the answer isn’t the government.

The problem is that people with lots of power tend to abuse it. Under universal healthcare, the problem will be the politicians- who will pay big bucks, in the form of earmarks, to their lobbyist pals.

The answer is to get rid of insurance companies and government intervention, so that the market has to operate within the constraints of what people can actually afford for healthcare.

 

[goofyjim]

The problem isn’t insurance companies, and the answer isn’t the government.

The problem is that people with lots of power tend to abuse it. Under universal healthcare, the problem will be the politicians- who will pay big bucks, in the form of earmarks, to their lobbyist pals.

The answer is to get rid of insurance companies and government intervention, so that the market has to operate within the constraints of what people can actually afford for healthcare.

Okay. Without insurance I can only afford $30 a month for my medication. Is the pharmaceutical company that makes it ready to drop the price from 700 a month. If not I’ll stick with the insuranc eoption and also provide it to the disabled through medicare and medicaid.

 

[redrosetea]

Christ was a healer and He didn’t charge…What did St Francis and Mother Theresa do?

I think somehow they are going to have to control what will be covered so people aren’t running to get nose jobs…but I do think we are our brothers keeper…I just hope he isn’t a hypochondriac…

 

[Mimi]

I heard part of the answer to my OP on The World Over with Raymond Arroyo on EWTN (this week’s broadcast). I hope to see it again on TV (only heard it on radio this evening).

Hope you all get to see/hear it as well. It was enlightening.

I found a book, An Introduction ot Catholic Social Teaching by Rodger Charles SJ. Only 103 pages, but very helpful, concise.

I think all Catholics need to be thinking about this and maybe there will be a few discussion groups starting up in various parishes.

A lot of people are confused about what Justice means, and Subsidiarity. The Catholic social teaching can sound quite socialistic if not understood in the correct way. Some in my state are getting into a Liberation Theology way of looking at it, and 3 popes have written that this is minimally compatible with Catholic teaching.

God bless,
Mimi