Health care: is it a human right?

[goofyjim]

I actually agree with you Jim, I think. If everybody had to pay out of pocket, then it would put the insurance companies, and the pharmaceutical companies out of business, because no one would be able to pay their inordinate prices. We would all be starting from ground zero. Then there enters the problem of research for drugs that would help people. It seems to be a catch 22.

On the other hand, if government controls healthcare, they control all aspects of healthcare. What if the government decides that you (or I or someone we love) are too wacked out to save, and then they just cut off your help because the funds may benefit someone more able or fit and better able to work or make money and pay taxes? What happens then? I realize I am speaking in hypotheticals, but aren’t we all? I would hope that we all want what is best for each other on a personal level. I truly hope you can afford your medication, but can you see how this can get out of hand?

God Bless you truly, Jim. Marcylee

I would love to have the government out of it. But if some are going to have the insurance option then everyone should. In my case the government would at least have to mandate that an insurer cover me. As it is I could not pay 700 a month and afford my residence at the same time. I’m not saying government is the way to go but we must find something because these things-food, clothing, healthcare, housing-they aren’t privileges but rights.

And I wish everyone would stop throwing around the old biblical reference of “if they don’t work they shouldn’t eat.” Anyone who does their research would realize that this was addressed to those who were waiting around in vain for Our Lord’s second coming instead of going about their daily business. We can’t aplly it to those who are unable to work for any reason. And often mental illness can become such a reason that interferes with work. personally I don’t know why anyone truly in their right mind would want to fake it because the social stigma associated withit is often unbearable.

 

[cynic]

I recently read an article in which a former US attorney general, who is now 92 years old, stated that he became very ill in 1986. This illness left him a quadraplegic. Surgery restored his limbs, but if he had lived in England at that time, he would have been 9 years too old to have that surgery that saved his life and gave him another 21 years. He fears that the US is about to embrace this same English socialized medicine system with the government deciding who lives and dies. It is sickening that the government is going to second guess doctors.

I suppose, but if he was one of the elderly that can’t afford high insurance premiums then those procedures wouldn’t have been available to him either.

 

[marcylee]

I would love to have the government out of it. But if some are going to have the insurance option then everyone should. In my case the government would at least have to mandate that an insurer cover me. As it is I could not pay 700 a month and afford my residence at the same time. I’m not saying government is the way to go but we must find something because these things-food, clothing, healthcare, housing-they aren’t privileges but rights.

And I wish everyone would stop throwing around the old biblical reference of “if they don’t work they shouldn’t eat.” Anyone who does their research would realize that this was addressed to those who were waiting around in vain for Our Lord’s second coming instead of going about their daily business. We can’t aplly it to those who are unable to work for any reason. And often mental illness can become such a reason that interferes with work. personally I don’t know why anyone truly in their right mind would want to fake it because the social stigma associated withit is often unbearable.

Hi Jim! First of all, I want to apologize for sounding cold and heartless in the past. There is no excuse for that, and I am truly sorry.

There are people who will do anything to NOT work. Mental illness is a convenient diagnosis because there are few medical tests that can diagnose it. They do not care about any stigma attached to it. It is to their advantage because they can sell their psych drugs.

You can’t make insurance companies pay for all people. They would go bankrupt. It would be better if nobody was covered by insurance, because then we would be on the same playing field.
If no one had insurance, then no one could afford their prices. Then they would have to lower their prices so people could afford their products. That is how capitalism works. I was born in 1961.No one had insurance. It cost my parents $200 to have me, that included all the medications and a 2 week hospital stay.

And Jim, I never used the quote you referred to in your previous post. I understand there are people who need help.

God Bless. Marcylee

 

[marcylee]

I suppose, but if he was one of the elderly that can’t afford high insurance premiums then those procedures wouldn’t have been available to him either.

That is true. I guess the point is, he was able to afford the premiums. Under a government plan, you would not have a choice. They would decide if you were worth spending the money and time on, or not. You may be deemed better off dead.

 

[cynic]

That is true. I guess the point is, he was able to afford the premiums. Under a government plan, you would not have a choice. They would decide if you were worth spending the money and time on, or not. You may be deemed better off dead.

Not quite. In western countries that have socialized/public healthcare, there is still the option of purchasing insurance and going private.

 

[goofyjim]

I say if we can’t have taxes to support this then we shouldn’t have taxes at all. Next time the government wants to start an unpopular war, sell war bonds, but don’t burden those of us who disapprove.

 

[Appleby]

That is true. I guess the point is, he was able to afford the premiums. Under a government plan, you would not have a choice. They would decide if you were worth spending the money and time on, or not. You may be deemed better off dead.

A friend of mine here in Canada was told that the elderly auntie whom he cared for was “too old” for any further medical treatment. He spent his own money and moved her to Connecticut, where she lived comfortably in nursing care for another five years and died with her affairs in order and her family around her.

In Canada she would not have had that option. She simply would have died a miserable death.

 

[Appleby]

Not quite. In western countries that have socialized/public healthcare, there is still the option of purchasing insurance and going private.

Not in Canada. It’s against the law.

 

[Soutane]

A friend of mine here in Canada was told that the elderly auntie whom he cared for was “too old” for any further medical treatment. He spent his own money and moved her to Connecticut, where she lived comfortably in nursing care for another five years and died with her affairs in order and her family around her.

In Canada she would not have had that option. She simply would have died a miserable death.

I challenge this ridiculous anecdotal assertion.In your attempt to slander Health Care in Canada(what IS your agenda?)you proffer the most ludicrous examples.Had this been the case it would have have made headlines “a mari usque ad mare”,and the Liberals,NDP,and Parti Quebecois would have a had a field day lynching the Conservative Party over this,not to mention the entire Canadian population.Hyperbole,exaggeration and misinformation destroy your arguement and make you look foolish and like someone with a very pronounced agenda.

I note that you seem to have abandoned the other thread where I challenged you on your ridiculous unsupported assertions.

The bottom line IS that Canadians live on average two years longer that Americans.Shall I retrieve my supporting documentation from the other thread?Odd that you never seem to provide proof to support your ludicrous allegations.

 

[Swan]

I challenge this ridiculous anecdotal assertion.In your attempt to slander Health Care in Canada(what IS your agenda?)you proffer the most ludicrous examples.Had this been the case it would have have made headlines “a mari usque ad mare”,and the Liberals,NDP,and Parti Quebecois would have a had a field day lynching the Conservative Party over this,not to mention the entire Canadian population.Hyperbole,exaggeration and misinformation destroy your arguement and make you look foolish and like someone with a very pronounced agenda.

I note that you seem to have abandoned the other thread where I challenged you on your ridiculous unsupported assertions.

The bottom line IS that Canadians live on average two years longer that Americans.Shall I retrieve my supporting documentation from the other thread?Odd that you never seem to provide proof to support your ludicrous allegations.

Not to mention the fact that Americans die everyday because they can’t afford healthcare. Even those with insurance are often cancelled or denied certain procedures - often lifesaving ones. I heard a mother on the radio the morning whose daughter needed a liver or kidney transplant. The insurance company refused to pay for the surgery. Eventually, after much publicity and wrangling, the insurance company agreed to pay - but by then it was too late. The little girl died. This is not an isolated incident.

 

[Appleby]

I challenge this ridiculous anecdotal assertion.In your attempt to slander Health Care in Canada(what IS your agenda?)you proffer the most ludicrous examples.Had this been the case it would have have made headlines “a mari usque ad mare”,and the Liberals,NDP,and Parti Quebecois would have a had a field day lynching the Conservative Party over this,not to mention the entire Canadian population.Hyperbole,exaggeration and misinformation destroy your arguement and make you look foolish and like someone with a very pronounced agenda.

I note that you seem to have abandoned the other thread where I challenged you on your ridiculous unsupported assertions.

The bottom line IS that Canadians live on average two years longer that Americans.Shall I retrieve my supporting documentation from the other thread?Odd that you never seem to provide proof to support your ludicrous allegations.

Shall I bring you a notarized statement from the friend?

When you have made up your mind that you are right and anyone who has another type of experience is wrong, there is no use arguing with you, so I have “abandoned” any thread where people substitute fights for arguments.

How about you quit the name calling and apologize? Yeah, right.

 

[Soutane]

Shall I bring you a notarized statement from the friend?

When you have made up your mind that you are right and anyone who has another type of experience is wrong, there is no use arguing with you, so I have “abandoned” any thread where people substitute fights for arguments.

How about you quit the name calling and apologize? Yeah, right.

If I offended you I DO apologise,however I will not let silly blanket anecdotal statements stand without being challenged.especially when our American cousins are subjected to a campaign of disinformation by special interest groups-i.e.their insurance companies and HMOs.

There is PLENTY to slag Canada for-so-called same-sex marriage,no abortion laws and Human Rights Commissions that try to control speech and thought and I’m the first to criticise especially in these Fora.Just not our Health Care system which is accessible to ALL.

How about YOU apologise for some of the characterisations you’ve made about me-adherent of a brave new world,envious of Rich People(your italicizisation not mine)etc.If your going to fling around insult and invective with abandon expect to get hit with some backwash.What was that advice my momma gave to me…oh,yeah,if you can’t stand the heat…well,you know the rest.Strangely(or not),you also abandoned the other thread where I challenged you.

 

[Traditional_Ang]

It is unless you believe abortion and euthanasia are healthcare. If we could truly get out of the prodeath culture, I have every reason to believe we could make healthcare a basic human right. Till then, God is letting us be tried over this whole issue.

Goofy:

This is one case where I thank God for anonymity - We had an Annual Parish Meeting at my Church 7 weeks ago, and to my chagrin, I found out that our parish’s entire annual budget for taking care of the poor in our parish was 12 x my monthly pledge (all of my pledge goes to the Rector’s Fund which is our equivalent of our outreach to the poor). I was embarrassed that they predicted that no one else in the congregation was going to contribute to helping the poor, or that, if they were, their contributions were going to be minimal a most (less than 5% total in addition to my contributions).

I must admit that I’m so ashamed that, between that thing and 2 others, I’m seriously considering leaving and joining the nearest of the Catholic parishes I pass on the way to this parish.

The other has to do with the refusal of the Rector to have anything to do with the 40-Days for Life Campaign along with his refusal to preach on or announce Abortion as a prayer request (even as a mild - “We ask you to pray for an end to Abortion in this country and elsewhere.”) claiming that people in the parish are too wounded to even here the word “Abortion”.

I’m sure people would be offended to hear that Abortion kills babes, and others would be offended to hear that Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided (Something “Jane Roe” herself has said"), and still others would be offended to hear a Pro-Life Homily or a Pro-Life speaker every month (something many Catholic parishes have). But, I’m only asking for him to do what the Bishops in the Catholic Church have asked all parishes in the Catholic Church to do. I think those who would be offended at that would have been so offended when it would have been required of us they would have left when Final Union Talks would have begun in earnest between the TAC and Rome - We would have lost them anyway. Better to obey the Lord than to worry about whether people who are disobedient would be offended.

Time for me to go.

I hope this makes it clear.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[Traditional_Ang]

Not to mention the fact that Americans die everyday because they can’t afford healthcare. Even those with insurance are often cancelled or denied certain procedures - often lifesaving ones. I heard a mother on the radio the morning whose daughter needed a liver or kidney transplant. The insurance company refused to pay for the surgery. Eventually, after much publicity and wrangling, the insurance company agreed to pay - but by then it was too late. The little girl died. This is not an isolated incident.

Swan:

I have SOLID BONES FIDES on this situation - My file is one of those that was read into the record when the Senate had their hearings about HMO’s in 1995-1996… My HMO even went to the point of trying to get me kicked out of the hospital while I was suffering from SPINAL HEADACHES (trust me, you don’t want one) after the brain surgery (craniotomy) to remove an ACOUSTIC TUMOR (Location = Lethality) that I had forced them to pay for (total cost of surgery, hospitalization and aftercare = $70,000)

I do recall reading about the situation Appleby spoke about, and there is something about doing the same type of thing on the in the present Health Care Reform Bill that President Obama is presenting to Congress.

All I’m going to say is that this is the type of stuff that happens when we as Christians don’t do our duty and take care of our Brother and Sisters in Christ and at least try to help the poorer members of our society take care of themselves. This is the type of stuff that happens when we don’t, “Pay a workman his wage,” and, “Do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with our God.” and, This is the type of stuff that happens when we allow bureaucracies to handle what human beings should handle.

I also have personal experience with dealing with a governmental agency which acted “bureaucratically” really messing things up, when, if the people working in this agency would have acted as “Workmen” and human beings whose job was to make sure every thing that needed to be gathered was gathered, things would have been much easier for me, and the people who pay the bills (the Taxpayers) would have spent less money. and, If my experience is any indicator of how things are done by this agency, I can only tell you the social and human costs of how they do business are huge, and I wouldn’t want Health Care or Health Insurance handled in a similar slipshod, uncaring manner either.

Let us Christians act as Christians, taking care of each others’ needs, then we can see what problem remains.

Your Brother and Servant in Christ, Michael

 

[goofyjim]

It’s about time we realize that except for the ones that believe it is okay to kill, be it the child in the womb, or one’s neighbor in war, both of which I feel are wrong, we all want the same thing. That’s why there are still Catholic Democrats. We want, again, except for the proabortion crowd, the same good things for everyone. On that both liberals and conservatives agree. So it’s time to respect each others views on how to achieve these things and really iron out something. We all want to end hunger, promote good health, shelter everyone. We have to start coming to some consensus over these things instead of playing petty politics which in the long run allow the very things we are trying to end keep going. Now if anyone says they will accept someone going without the basics then, be they liberal or conservative, I want no association with them.

 

[jman507]

It’s about time we realize that except for the ones that believe it is okay to kill, be it the child in the womb, or one’s neighbor in war, both of which I feel are wrong, we all want the same thing. That’s why there are still Catholic Democrats. We want, again, except for the proabortion crowd, the same good things for everyone. On that both liberals and conservatives agree. So it’s time to respect each others views on how to achieve these things and really iron out something. We all want to end hunger, promote good health, shelter everyone. We have to start coming to some consensus over these things instead of playing petty politics which in the long run allow the very things we are trying to end keep going. Now if anyone says they will accept someone going without the basics then, be they liberal or conservative, I want no association with them.

Unfortnunatly just because we “do something” doesn’t mean it will solve the problem. There have been many government problems that have caused a great number of unintended consequences.

As far as petty politics, I would say while that does happen, not all politics are petty. Sometimes even when petty politics are being played, it can serve usefully as to flushing out problems.

 

[Jean_1958]

Catholic Health Association Call on Congress to Expand Health Coverage to Millions of Uninsured

WASHINGTON (March 12, 2003) – Calling the fact that one in seven Americans does not have health insurance “morally unacceptable,” three national Catholic organizations are pressing Congress to increase access to affordable health care to the millions of uninsured in the United States.

In a letter to the leadership of the Senate and House Budget Committees, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB), Catholic Charities USA, and the Catholic Health Association of the United States (CHA) urged Congress to dedicate at least $89 billion over the next 10 years to expand coverage for the uninsured, the amount set aside by President George W. Bush in his fiscal 2004 budget proposal.

“We consider access to adequate health care to be a basic human right, necessary for the development and maintenance of life and for the ability of human beings to realize the fullness of their dignity. A just society is one that protects and promotes the fundamental rights of its members – with special attention to meeting the basic needs of the poor and underserved, including the need for safe and affordable health care,” wrote Cardinal Theodore McCarrick, of the Archdiocese of Washington, and chair of USCCB’s Domestic Policy Committee, Rev. J. Bryan Hehir, president of Catholic Charities USA, and Rev. Michael D. Place, STD, CHA’s president and chief executive officer.

In their letter, which was copied to all members of the committees, the organizations also called on Congress to provide immediate fiscal relief to states for their Medicaid and the State Children’s Health Insurance Program, which provide health coverage to millions of low-income adults and children. In dire fiscal straits, state and local governments are slashing their Medicaid and other health care budgets. “We urge Congress to act quickly to provide immediate relief for these programs and prevent the erosion of coverage to our most vulnerable beneficiaries,” said the letter.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, nearly 42 million Americans did not have health insurance in 2001. Eight out of 10 were from working families. In most cases, the main wage earners in these families either had jobs that offered no health coverage or their premiums were unaffordable.

“People who lack health insurance are far less likely to receive basic health care services, and are generally in poorer health as a result,” wrote Cardinal McCarrick, Fr. Place, and Fr. Hehir. "Studies show they delay seeking care even when in need of medical attention, do not fill prescriptions and have trouble paying medical bills. The uninsured have more difficulty obtaining primary care and access to essential medication, and have a higher rate of hospitalization for treatable conditions such as hypertension, asthma or diabetes.

The letter is available online at chausa.org/publicpo/03030…_Uninsured.pdf.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops’ Domestic Policy Committee speaks for the U.S. bishops on health care and other social and economic programs. For more information, visit www.usccb.org.

The St. Louis-based Catholic Health Association of the United States is the national leadership organization of the Catholic health ministry, engaged in the strategic directions of mission, ethics, and advocacy. CHA’s more than 2,000 members form the nation’s largest group of not-for-profit health care sponsors, systems, facilities, health plans, and related organizations. For more information, visit the CHA Web site at www.chausa.org.

Catholic Charities USA’s members—1,640 local agencies and institutions nationwide—provide help and create hope for more than seven million people a year regardless of religious, social, or economic backgrounds. For more than 275 years, local Catholic Charities agencies have been providing a myriad of vital services in their communities, ranging from day care and counseling to food and housing. For more information, visit www.catholiccharitiesinfo.org.

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