Health Care reform from a Doctors perspective

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I can’t say whether or not the doctor not diagnosis the heart was unforgivable because I wasn’t there. If it really was as obvious as you claim then he probably should have lost his license and should have been sued. But that is only one case. You try to take the worst of anyone’s experience and say that’s how the entire system is. Shame on you for ignoring all the good professionals there are. Did you grandmother take case of gay patients without a second thought? If she did, then obviously there are medical professionals who care, if not, then she’s no angel for you to hold up.
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I rmeber that story vividly because right after that happened my nurse grandmother along with my mom and other family memebers emphatically tryed to get my maternal grandmother to change doctors because of that “mistake”. My Maternal grandmother’s brittle diebetes didn’t get propper care for many years because she had to go to Doctor Tremper, because she thought she owed her life to his hospital for giving her a job during the depression. Because she didn’t go to a good doctor she died 4 days before getting to see her first grandchild getting married, ie ME! That person who died as a result of misdiagnosis, was my (nurse) grandmother’s next door neighbor…
Since you want to bring in the subject of homosexuality in the arguement when you posted the word “gays”. My grandmother didn’t ask sexual orientation of her patients. She treated injuries and illnesses as they came in. Her youngest son passed away from AIDS. She took care of him for the last half year of his life.
 
And people calm down. It’s been what, less than 5 hours since you pointed out RA hadn’t answered your question and you’re saying it’s because they are too preoccupied by business. Maybe they’re just spending time with their family. Try to be more charitable than you accuse us of being, otherwise you have no ground to stand on.
Agreed. Everyone should calm down, including me. I apologize for my little tirade. This is a volatile issue, but honestly I have seen less anger on the abortion threads. This much anger is new to me and I got caught up in it too, although I’ve never gotten so angry when debating abortion.

It would have helped if the OP hadn’t abandoned the thread. It’s the OP’s job to keep the thread on topic but Steave bailed out long ago although he may have had a good reason for doing so. When I’m the OP I never just abandon a thread.
 
And we’ll see if pathia gets any better care when she moves to another 1st world country.

Finally, pathia, not to sound cold, but you’ve said multiple times death would be welcome. Then why don’t you stop taking life saving medications. If you want to die, then let yourself do so. If you want to live, then live and stop saying you wish you’d die.
I’m not angry as I type this. While reading this I just got so sad that now I’m crying. Aren’t you a Catholic? Maybe I’m wrong but I think you are. As a Catholic you should know that our bodies do not belong to us. Our lives do but we are here to love and serve God. Yet you are telling someone to die. Suicide goes against Church teaching. It is never OK to commit suicide, and if Pathia stopped taking “life saving medications” she would be committing suicide. You don’t know why Pathia is here or why anyone else is here on earth. We are here for a reason. I find it very, very sad that you have no pity in your heart. You don’t know what’s going on in Pathia’s life. Only Pathia knows that.

Should I die, too? I want to know because I have been where Pathia has been, at least a little bit. Do you know how much damage you can cause by telling someone who is suicidal at times to go ahead and do it? I know how much damage you can cause. If you had written that to me when I was suicidal I would have killed myself. I’m not trying to judge you here - that is not my place. I’m telling you what I would have done.

That little comment at the end of your post may have the effect of causing a suicide. But that seems to be what you want. I am so saddened by your post. Wow.
 
I know this is going to get me flamed.

You do realize, that the Constitution clear does grant the powers of protection to the Federal government. However, many social programs are more of a gray area. [Whether this is correct or not is can be debated and there is a process for amending the constitution]
Everyone in this thread gets flamed sooner or later. There is a lot of hostility here. I just want to point out that Pathia didn’t state anything about the Constitution. Pathia stated that he/she didn’t want his/her money going to defense contractors. I may have missed something stated earlier and if so I apologize. It’s hard to keep track in this thread. Usually I’m able to categorize posters as either “pro” or “anti” whatever position I have. But I have no position on national health care and I can’t figure out what most of the posters here believe. I can’t get past the anger. There is no OP to keep an eye on things.

Perhaps there should be an amendment to the Constitution. Maybe that would be part of the solution, or it might cause even more problems as it could be interpreted by the Supreme Court whichever way it chooses (which is unfortunate IMO). I guess that would best be discussed on another thread.
 
Everyone in this thread gets flamed sooner or later. There is a lot of hostility here. I just want to point out that Pathia didn’t state anything about the Constitution. Pathia stated that he/she didn’t want his/her money going to defense contractors. I may have missed something stated earlier and if so I apologize. It’s hard to keep track in this thread. Usually I’m able to categorize posters as either “pro” or “anti” whatever position I have. But I have no position on national health care and I can’t figure out what most of the posters here believe. I can’t get past the anger. There is no OP to keep an eye on things.

Perhaps there should be an amendment to the Constitution. Maybe that would be part of the solution, or it might cause even more problems as it could be interpreted by the Supreme Court whichever way it chooses (which is unfortunate IMO). I guess that would best be discussed on another thread.
Pathia didn’t state the constitution, however the law of the land explicitly states that the Federal government has responsibility for defense of the nation. Defense contractors fall under this umbrella. This is why I brought it up, there’s no way around this - it is a fact of life in this country.

Social programs are not specifically discussed in the Constitution.
 
I’m not angry as I type this. While reading this I just got so sad that now I’m crying. Aren’t you a Catholic? Maybe I’m wrong but I think you are. As a Catholic you should know that our bodies do not belong to us. Our lives do but we are here to love and serve God. Yet you are telling someone to die. Suicide goes against Church teaching. It is never OK to commit suicide, and if Pathia stopped taking “life saving medications” she would be committing suicide. You don’t know why Pathia is here or why anyone else is here on earth. We are here for a reason. I find it very, very sad that you have no pity in your heart. You don’t know what’s going on in Pathia’s life. Only Pathia knows that.

Should I die, too? I want to know because I have been where Pathia has been, at least a little bit. Do you know how much damage you can cause by telling someone who is suicidal at times to go ahead and do it? I know how much damage you can cause. If you had written that to me when I was suicidal I would have killed myself. I’m not trying to judge you here - that is not my place. I’m telling you what I would have done.

That little comment at the end of your post may have the effect of causing a suicide. But that seems to be what you want. I am so saddened by your post. Wow.
As a Catholic you are allowed to refuse to take life saving medication. No where did I tell her to kill herself. I told her if, to her, death is preferable than her current life she should stop taking the medication keeping her alive. Catholic patients are allowed to refuse resuscitation and other life saving procedures. Aren’t you Catholic and know this? If she stops taking the meds, that is not suicide. Yes, only she knows, so she should make the call. If she feels her life isn’t worth living, she should let nature do it’s work. If she wants to live, then she can continue to do all she can to keep herself alive. And she doesn’t sound suicidal to me. She sounds like she’s playing the sympathy card. And I felt sorry for her until she started this whole “I’d rather be dead” theme. What you wanted to do was something active to end your life. What she would be doing is not doing anything.
 
Pathia didn’t state the constitution, however the law of the land explicitly states that the Federal government has responsibility for defense of the nation. Defense contractors fall under this umbrella. This is why I brought it up, there’s no way around this - it is a fact of life in this country.

Social programs are not specifically discussed in the Constitution.
I understand that you were clarifying the issue. I was just trying to do the same. I wasn’t criticizing you in any way. You are, of course, correct.
 
As a Catholic you are allowed to refuse to take life saving medication. No where did I tell her to kill herself. I told her if, to her, death is preferable than her current life she should stop taking the medication keeping her alive. Catholic patients are allowed to refuse resuscitation and other life saving procedures. Aren’t you Catholic and know this? If she stops taking the meds, that is not suicide. Yes, only she knows, so she should make the call. If she feels her life isn’t worth living, she should let nature do it’s work. If she wants to live, then she can continue to do all she can to keep herself alive. And she doesn’t sound suicidal to me. She sounds like she’s playing the sympathy card. And I felt sorry for her until she started this whole “I’d rather be dead” theme. What you wanted to do was something active to end your life. What she would be doing is not doing anything.
The Church teaches the following:

"…An act or omission which, of itself or by **intention, causes death in order to eliminate suffering constitutes a murder gravely contrary to the dignity of the human person and to the respect due to the living God, ** his Creator. The error of judgment into which one can fall in good faith does not change the nature of this murderous act, which must always be forbidden and excluded. (CCC 2277)

“Discontinuing medical procedures that are burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome can be legitimate; it is the refusal of “over-zealous” treatment. Here one does not will to cause death; one’s inability to impede it is merely accepted…” (CCC 2278)

If Pathia were a patient in a hospital and was maintaining life only because of machines which kept respiration going, etc. it would be acceptable to turn off the machines and allow death to occur. However, Pathia is here, on this forum, conscious and able to type comprehensible posts. He/she is obviously not covered under CCC 2278. Taking life-saving medication is not burdensome, dangerous, extraordinary, or disproportionate to the expected outcome. However, Pathia’s option of discontinuing life-saving medication is covered under CCC 2277 where it states that an omission which causes death constitutes a murder, even if it is done in order to eliminate suffering. If Pathia decides to stop life-saving medication in order to die, he/she is committing the grave sin of murder. Pathia would be murdering Pathia. It would be the same as if a diabetic stopped injecting insulin in order to die. It is suicide. It is absolutely forbidden by the Catholic Church.

As far as Pathia’s intentions of posting as he/she does, that is between Pathia and God. I’m not going to decide that Pathia is lying or playing the “sympathy card.” That burden is on Pathia. I can only go by what the posts say. Also, even if Pathia were lying, there are lurkers here who may very well be in the situation Pathia describes.
 
The topic is:
Health Care reform from a Doctors perspective.
Either stay on topic or the thread will be close.
 
To everyone,

I’ve seen this thread deteriorate right from the beginning. The OP’s reference was a blog. The OP is now gone. I don’t think any actual physicians have been posting, so we are in a strange situation here. Does anyone have any concrete ideas about how health care should be managed in the USA? Is it acceptable to force taxpayers to fund abortion on demand? What about the baby boomers who are now retiring? Should younger, working people be forced to pay for health care for a disproportionately large number of retirees? Would it put a burden on them? What about state programs versus federal programs? What about the people who misuse the current system? What about people who have lived in poverty for generations and can’t (or won’t) find a way out of their situation?

Should we go back to discussing whether doctors make too much money and the effect a national health care program would have on them? As no physicians have posted (as far as I know), how can we know what effect a national program would have on them?

As I’ve stated several times, I don’t have a position. I’ve talked to people and I understand the fear of government taking money and mishandling it. Our government doesn’t have a very good track record when it comes to social programs. Yet I find myself hoping that I can get Medicare because it’s the best I can do for myself, in my own unique situation.

From what little I have learned from my own experience, physicians are not happy at all with Medicare and they hate Medicaid. I know that in California Medicaid (it’s called Medi-cal there) is usually not accepted. If one is on Medicare and Medi-cal it seems to be accepted as payment, or at least that was true when I was on it, which was 20 years ago. When I needed treatment I identified my insurance as “medi-medi” and I was never denied care for any reason. Even TMJD was covered and my treatment consisted of surgery and medication.

Is there any solution? Are there any positive ideas? I apologize for not having read every post as I’ve been gone for about a week and had limited access to my computer.
 
Most malpractice is a result of quackery, bad attitudes or not paying attention to the patient. I have a quarter centruy of story from a grandmother who was a nurse on the intermediate floor of a local hospital. Practicing correct medicine in most cases is not that tough to know what to do with most cases.
Maybe we should sue meteorologist for all they are worth and then some everytime the weather is not exactly what they predicted.
 
…Royal Archer was “bullying”
I have not threatened or bullied anyone here. I may have said some things others did not want to hear and I may be less than touchy feely in my wording but I would not stoop to threatening others. However, others here have said things I find as very insulting, offensive, and hateful. Part of being on a discussion of this type is that you get a variety of points of views, not just those you want to hear.
 
Maybe we should sue meteorologist for all they are worth and then some everytime the weather is not exactly what they predicted.
Actually there is a tv station here that keeps track of that. look up wzzmtv.com
Now you do know that if you sue to have to proove a loss of somekind.
 
I have not threatened or bullied anyone here. I may have said some things others did not want to hear and I may be less than touchy feely in my wording but I would not stoop to threatening others. However, others here have said things I find as very insulting, offensive, and hateful. Part of being on a discussion of this type is that you get a variety of points of views, not just those you want to hear.
What the poster is saying is better worded as badgering, which most people se as the same thing as bullying. The meteorologist comment a few frames ago would be considdered badgering. You just know how to cover your tracks better than most, it doesn’t make you anymore incocent.
 
Should we go back to discussing whether doctors make too much money and the effect a national health care program would have on them? As no physicians have posted (as far as I know), how can we know what effect a national program would have on them?
I’m not a doctor, but I work with them everyday as I am a X-ray & CT technologist. I here the genuine fear in their voice about nationalized healthcare. Several of them trained under doctors from Canada and the UK who immigrated here to get out from under those systems due to horrid practices. Many of them feel that tort reform would help greatly in reducing their costs (through malpractice insurance rates among other things). I had an MD tell me once that once you have to sit in front of an attorney who has no medical training and they second guess everything you did, you will never practice medicine the same way again.

I know medical imaging is one of the areas the government has said they want to scale back under a single payer system. What they don’t get is that CT cut back exploratory surgery by something like 80%. Do we want to go back to 1970’s/early 80’s medicine?
 
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