Hearing philosophy = depression

[Flavius_Aetius]

Forgive me if I don’t defend my statement well; I feel depressed and just want to get this out there because it seems so true.

First being relying on faith-having to put so much in with the full knowledge that you’ll never get any return, or that any return you do feel has been created entirely by your own mind. (believing God touches you with a gust of wind, feeling elated after a Mass)

To be religious you do what is right out of rewards and punishment; whether consiously or sub-consiously.

To do so without any belief in a god is doing so because you believe its right-making you morally superior to someone who does it out of religious conviction.

If no afterlife exists we consern ourselves more with the present. True abused it creates engulfing materialism, but it can also create ambition to improve this life for society and our families.

If your living for your death…what is there in life?

Anyways I’m tired, depressed, and feeling without any faith. I’m sick of people who understand philosophy smugly looking at the religious as the unwashed masses-the ignorant that deserve sympathy.

I hate college, I hate the fact that I’m sending my family tens of thousands of dollars in debt for my own education, and I hate that everything moral points to being relative.

Even though I would never do it; I feel like just dying…the world is a terrible place, having faith in God is completely one-sided, and all philosophical thoughts nowadays point to there being no evidence for God, morals, and religion is just the majority of humans means to cope with such horrendous lives.

 

[futurtheologian]

Hello Flavius. I hope that this response helps you discern different aspects of your life.

First and foremost, I am also in college and I somewhat bothered by the high costs assocated with earning a degree. It is difficult to accept but it is reality; it is not something which is immoral or against the Catholic faith. Sometimes you have to accept aspects of modernity which you do not agree with. A degree will only help you future you future prospects.

I know that you are doubting life and that you equate philosophy with depression. Yes, philosophy can be depressing. Much of life can be depressing. There are always trials in life. Trust me, I as everyone else have experienced serious trials in life. Just be sure to always believe in God. Philosophy may try to disprove God through complex systems of rational thought which infuse verbosity with different forms of logic.

Listen, morality is NOT relative. That is a lie which you have been told. Morality is ABSOLUTE. Christianity, God, is absolute. I guess if you want to read a text outside of the Bible to learn about this, consider Augustine, Aquinas, or Bonaventure. Confessions by Augustine is a work of true beauty and love for God–it will restore your faith. Aquinas is quite difficult compared with Augustine, but Summa Theologica has “5 Proofs for the Existence of God.” I just started with Bonaventure so I cannot fully comment, but trust me, it is an experience reading his works. Ancient and medieval theologians in my opinion are the most beautiful authors to exist.

I also highly suggest you read Plato’s Republic at least through Book VI in your search for absolutes or transcendent knowledge. Live outside the aesthetic or visible and search for the intelligible. Socrates always says he is searching for the good–but that is quite possibly God.

And I guess I can add that life is beautiful. Learn to accept what God gives you. God is infinite and omnipotent. This implies that God is greater than the imperfection and finitude of humanity. Sometimes you have ups in life sometimes you have downs. If you take any solace in this, I truly found not only happiness but a “contendedness” (if that makes sense) by truly believing in God as a Catholic and following the Padre Pio addage “Pray, Hope, and Don’t Worry.”

If I may also suggest, take a look at Kierkegaard. I was in a depressed state at one point, and Kierkegaard helped me move out of that. READ “Sickenss Unto Death” which describes the state you are describing-despair. The first twenty or so pages will explain to you so much. Also consider “Fear and Trembling” and “Works of Love” if you are truly interetsed in philosophy.

I hope this helps you on your journey in life. Just write think and reflect and pray and God will make sense.

 

[Adeodatus]

Even though I would never do it; I feel like just dying…the world is a terrible place, having faith in God is completely one-sided, and all philosophical thoughts nowadays point to there being no evidence for God, morals, and religion is just the majority of humans means to cope with such horrendous lives.

Even as a Catholic student of philosophy, I sure thought I knew stuff until I got to graduate school. There are some truly brilliant men who know more about St. Thomas Aquinas than I still feel like I will ever know. Look into St. Thomas and I think you will find some interesting things. Start reading the Summa Theologiae. Just sit down with Part 1, Question 1, Article 1 and give it a shot.

I look at the so-called philosophers of this day and age and I have to laugh, man. I read articles on Aristotle by self-appointed ‘greats’ and it’s clear that, though they’ve read the work they’re commenting on, they haven’t read the works that come before it in the corpus and they constantly miss the most obvious points. And I’m not even talking about hacks like Dawkins; I’m talking about really admired men. And don’t even get me started on Dawkins. The guy wants us to be materialists and he’s talking some pseudo-science garbage about “memes”? Is this guy for real?

Philosophy nowadays is made up of guys who read a few key books in their own tradition, which happen to be very arid books of no underlying substance (David Hume, I’m looking at you), and then read one another’s articles and comment upon those. Half the time, they actually refute themselves in their own book (Ludwig Wittgenstein, I’m looking at you). They come at problems that have been hashed out with great subtlety and sublimity over centuries during the Middle Ages (a time when philosophers sat around in stone rooms all day neither watching TV nor surfing the net nor having sex nor playing Playstation… very productive times) as if they, the ‘moderns’, are the first to think of them! While Aquinas and Augustine and Aristotle and Plato and Cajetan and Scotus are in the background roaring like lions, the modern philosopher mewls in the foreground like a kitten and thinks himself to be roaring.

Of all the things in the world, dude, do not let your faith be shaken by contemporary philosophy. It’s the biggest joke of a bush league pseudo-field that you can imagine. Real philosophy takes actual rigor. They don’t make philosophers anymore.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Forgive me if I don’t defend my statement well; I feel depressed and just want to get this out there because it seems so true.

First being relying on faith-having to put so much in with the full knowledge that you’ll never get any return, or that any return you do feel has been created entirely by your own mind. (believing God touches you with a gust of wind, feeling elated after a Mass)

Thats assuming God doesn’t exist. If He does then you benefit greatly.

To be religious you do what is right out of rewards and punishment; whether consiously or sub-consiously.

Philosophy only deals with the conscious realm, not the sub-conscious. Therefore, one cannot use the argument “aha, but sub-consciously this is what is really going on!” Subconsciously we don’t really know what is going on. In fact since it is the subconscious, you can’t even say that you are following the religion because of reward.

To do so without any belief in a god is doing so because you believe its right-making you morally superior to someone who does it out of religious conviction.

Or I could say that sub-consciously you are doing it because altruism is programmed in your genetics so that you are really in the end doing it for your own benefit or the benefit of your DNA (kids) which is essentially selfish. This is why the sub-conscious argument isn’t any good. There are too many variables and since it’s the sub-conscious the person who your speaking to can’t say “no, that’s not the reason” because he couldn’t know it isn’t.

If no afterlife exists we consern ourselves more with the present. True abused it creates engulfing materialism, but it can also create ambition to improve this life for society and our families.

How would that be so? What is your reasoning behind that conclusion? Why would it be so? If anything it would not create ambition, but kill it, since essentially everything would be pointless after that. You seem to think the world would be better if religion didn’t exist (probably because of reinforcement by peers in college). Ask the Jews in Nazi Germany, people under Communism in the USSR, and those under Pol Pot.

If your living for your death…what is there in life?

I’m not living for my death. I know that by living my life for God I can live it in the fullest way I can, as a human being is supposed to live in it.

As Christ said in John 10
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

I don’t live for my death. I live for God, and in Him I will have the fullness of life. Not just for a heaven, but because I can be who I am supposed to be, who i was made to be, the show my true personality that will one day be unobstructed by sin, but most of all I do it for God because I love Him and it is right for me to live for Him.

Anyways I’m tired, depressed, and feeling without any faith. I’m sick of people who understand philosophy smugly looking at the religious as the unwashed masses-the ignorant that deserve sympathy.

In this quote is the implicit statement that those who are religious do not know anything about philosophy. You need to look up some Catholic philosophers and their works. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_philosophers_and_theologians

I hate college, I hate the fact that I’m sending my family tens of thousands of dollars in debt for my own education, and I hate that everything moral points to being relative.

Even though I would never do it; I feel like just dying…the world is a terrible place, having faith in God is completely one-sided, and all philosophical thoughts nowadays point to there being no evidence for God, morals, and religion is just the majority of humans means to cope with such horrendous lives.

Three things that need to be pointed out.

1. Morality is not relative. Philosophical arguments that says it is make one assumption, that there is no God. If there is a God, then Morality is not relative.
2. Having faith in God is completely one-sided. We who have faith in Christ and endure gain a prize and strength and life more great than those who give up can possibly imagine. If God is for us who can be against us? We have God on our side, and the victory was already won on the cross. Yep, one sided.
3. Do not let your heart be swayed and troubled by the trends of this time. In the past much philosophical thought swayed in the other direction, saying that there is a God. Philosophy grows and changes overtime. Right now in philosophy there is a strong argument for the existence of a non-physical part of the self (a soul) that cannot seem to be knocked down as of yet. But it will be knocked down eventually, just as the atheistic arguments will be knocked down as well. Such is the nature of philosophy. One argument is not the be all and end all. All things are subject to scrutiny, discredit and finally abandonment.
4. Keep faith, keep going to Church, keep going to confession, keep going to class and learning, and keep loving God all the way through. Though your body struggles with the existence of God your intellect knows it to be true. No matter how you feel, your intellect knows, so keep on acting in faith (go to mass, confession, say prayers, receive the Eucharist), hope (keep going even though it may seem pointless at times) and love (pray to God, for in the end He is the giver of faith, faith is not something you come upon on your own)

I went to the same thing after taking a philosophy class (though not to the degree that you are experiencing it), so I know how you may feel. I will pray for you.

 

[Flavius_Aetius]

Before I say anything, I want to thank everyone who posted a reply so far. It helped greatly to get a response back. So far this has come from self-described philosophers; people either on the internet or in person who most of the time can twist logic and reason to make it sound like Religion and faith are outdated idea that should slowly die away. Almost all tended to be smug after leading a person focused on faith astray.

As for the philosophy class, I have a grim feeling about it. We’ll be talking about a lot of Catholic Philosophers, but since their arguements are in showing proof that God exists our classes job will be to refute their claims…

Right now in philosophy there is a strong argument for the existence of a non-physical part of the self (a soul) that cannot seem to be knocked down as of yet. But it will be knocked down eventually, just as the atheistic arguments will be knocked down as well. Such is the nature of philosophy. One argument is not the be all and end all. All things are subject to scrutiny, discredit and finally abandonment.

I’m confused; how do you respond if someone creates a understandable, ‘logical’, and ‘reasoned’ arguement that concludes with showing atheism to be considered more likely true than theism? I would think ignoring their arguement just seems to prove to them that religious people are just closed-minded. Not only that but arguing always puts the burden of proof on the theist, with somehow atheism being free from that burden.

 

[TheQuestioner]

Before I say anything, I want to thank everyone who posted a reply so far. It helped greatly to get a response back. So far this has come from self-described philosophers; people either on the internet or in person who most of the time can twist logic and reason to make it sound like Religion and faith are outdated idea that should slowly die away. Almost all tended to be smug after leading a person focused on faith astray.

As for the philosophy class, I have a grim feeling about it. We’ll be talking about a lot of Catholic Philosophers, but since their arguements are in showing proof that God exists our classes job will be to refute their claims…

I took a similar class. My faith is fine. Just take my advice and you’ll be ok. Also realize that philosophy is just that, philosophy. Yes, they will refute those arguments. And they may even refute their own refutations. They will present some atheistic arguments and refute those ones too. That is how philosophy works. Arguments appear and disappear. The ones you will study are not the only ones to exist, and there are variations of them. Philosophy is not a tool of the enemy, but can be used for God as well. It is intrinsically neutral like math and science. It is only in how you use it that it can be bad.

Realize in philosophy if an argument for the existence of God is refuted it does not mean that God does not exist, only that a better argument for the existence of God needs to be made. In the same way, if an argument proving God does not exist is refuted it does not mean that there is a God, only that a better argument for the non-existence of God needs to be made.

I’m confused; how do you respond if someone creates a understandable, ‘logical’, and ‘reasoned’ arguement that concludes with showing atheism to be considered more likely true than theism? I would think ignoring their arguement just seems to prove to them that religious people are just closed-minded. Not only that but arguing always puts the burden of proof on the theist, with somehow atheism being free from that burden.

I never said to ignore the argument. It’s there, acknowledge it. But realize that just because you don’t have a response to it, does not mean that someone else doesn’t as well, or that someone else wont come along later and show that the argument is wrong. There have been plenty of philosophical arguments that have been refuted hundreds of years later, rather than in a 10 minute conversation. It happens. There have also been arguments that seemed unstoppable until a scientific fact came out that changed everything (since philosophy is supposed to deal with the world around us as well, it is subject to science). So don’t worry. God made creation. He is not deceitful, all creation will point to His existence. Today one scientific fact will suggest God may have this or that quality and then another day one will come out and suggest God is not real and then another one will suggest He is and so on. But in the end all things will point to God, whether it be science (if done honestly) or philosophy (again, if done honestly).

By the way, if you want to refute a philosophical argument the best thing to do is attack the premise. I know of one person who was arguing against the existence of God by trying to point out how “ridiculous” some miracles were and that they were unlikely to have happened. Thus God is not likely to exist. The problem with such an argument is that it assumes first and foremost that God does not exist in the first place. Thus effectively it goes something like.

“Prove God does not exist”

“Ok, first off, lets assume He doesn’t exist. Then all those miracles would seem highly unlikely, and thus God does not likely exist”

Well, the first premise is the end point in and of itself, so under those terms you can never win against them. You have to point out that when someone seeks to prove that God does not exist, they must start off with the assumption that He already does exist and show why this assumption cannot possibly be logical. Under those terms you can work to examine his arguments and refute them as well, and the ground is more even. Also, anyone who brings likelihood into play is also doing a poor job. Likelihoods change. Those miracles may seem ridiculous and unlikely when one assumes God does not exist, but when one does assume He exists they no longer seem unlikely, but some miracles even seem more likely.

They’ll teach you how to successfully refute arguments in general in those philosophy courses, so don’t worry. Keep praying and in the end if you feel a class may be too much for you right now in your faith then drop it. Not because you are ignoring the truth or anything, but simply because right now you simply aren’t ready to argue on this level and it may be imprudent for you to stay in this class. God before pride. I will pray for you.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Forgive me if I don’t defend my statement well; I feel depressed and just want to get this out there because it seems so true.

First being relying on faith-having to put so much in with the full knowledge that you’ll never get any return, or that any return you do feel has been created entirely by your own mind. (believing God touches you with a gust of wind, feeling elated after a Mass)

Who said I’ll never get any return? In my opinion, I have had incredible healing as a result of practices that were faith-centered. Now show me where I’m wrong.

To be religious you do what is right out of rewards and punishment; whether consiously or sub-consiously.

Sigh. In so many cases, I’m afraid this is true. This, however, is not a flaw with the faith but with its application. Even getting to heaven or hell is based on rewards or punishment.

The greater reason to do what is right, which religion attempts to bring us to, is love. Philosophy may not be able to describe or quantify “love” adequately, but those of us who’ve acted out of genuine love for others know it well. By the way, it comes with emotional rewards so I suppose you could argue that I knew and expected these rewards. Note that’s only true if the #1 statement above is recognized as false.

Yeah, that’s it. How can we be acting out of reward and punishment if we don’t expect a return? That’s preposterous and self-contradictory.

To do so without any belief in a god is doing so because you believe its right-making you morally superior to someone who does it out of religious conviction.

Please define “morally superior.” If you mean that being intellectual and devoid of love is superior, then I’ll have no part of it.

If no afterlife exists we consern ourselves more with the present. True abused it creates engulfing materialism, but it can also create ambition to improve this life for society and our families.

I believe what I believe; you may believe what you believe.

If your living for your death…what is there in life?

I agree. When I live in love I enjoy almost every moment of life, even the trials such as talking to people like you.

Anyways I’m tired, depressed, and feeling without any faith. I’m sick of people who understand philosophy smugly looking at the religious as the unwashed masses-the ignorant that deserve sympathy.

Enjoy them and learn them. You will have many like them to deal with if you have a future in business or academia. Or politics.

I hate college, I hate the fact that I’m sending my family tens of thousands of dollars in debt for my own education, and I hate that everything moral points to being relative.

Don’t expect them to teach you morals. Let them teach you what they are good at, and find your morality through your faith.

Even though I would never do it; I feel like just dying…the world is a terrible place, having faith in God is completely one-sided, and all philosophical thoughts nowadays point to there being no evidence for God, morals, and religion is just the majority of humans means to cope with such horrendous lives.

I hear you. Sometimes I want to say, “Lord end my pain and take me into Your presence right now.” Luckily these things pass.

Alan