Hearing something and knowing something

[Peter_J]

Hi all. I’ve been away from the Non-Catholic Religions section for a while (though not so long that I’m inclined to reintroduce myself); but I have a question I’d like to throw out to you all, Catholics and “non-Catholics” alike.

It’s not uncommon to hear people speak as though being told something implies knowing it. Now I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with that, in itself as a manner of speaking (and I’m sure I do it too) but I want to ask: is there a point when it becomes an actual fallacy (dare I say the “being told something implies knowing it” fallacy?)?

Also, is your answer influenced by your religion?

 

[adamhovey1988]

Hi all. I’ve been away from the Non-Catholic Religions section for a while (though not so long that I’m inclined to reintroduce myself); but I have a question I’d like to throw out to you all, Catholics and “non-Catholics” alike.

It’s not uncommon to hear people speak as though being told something implies knowing it. Now I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with that, in itself as a manner of speaking (and I’m sure I do it too) but I want to ask: is there a point when it becomes an actual fallacy (dare I say the “being told something implies knowing it” fallacy?)?

Also, is your answer influenced by your religion?

Could you phrase that a little differently and more condensed? Thanks!

 

[Peter_J]

Could you phrase that a little differently and more condensed? Thanks!

Who are you, my editor?

 

[TonyBS]

Hi all. I’ve been away from the Non-Catholic Religions section for a while (though not so long that I’m inclined to reintroduce myself); but I have a question I’d like to throw out to you all, Catholics and “non-Catholics” alike.

It’s not uncommon to hear people speak as though being told something implies knowing it. Now I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with that, in itself as a manner of speaking (and I’m sure I do it too) but I want to ask: is there a point when it becomes an actual fallacy (dare I say the “being told something implies knowing it” fallacy?)?

Also, is your answer influenced by your religion?

This is a good question and needs no editing

I have seen this often and a lot with people that reject Christ and the Bible. The common one you hear is they say Jesus was just made up and the Bible is just a book put together etc etc!

The first question is have they read the Bible and the Second Question I ask is on what information do they base this opinion. Never had a good reply to this as yet

IMHO - In the end every comment we make has to be grounded in Gods Word or Credible Scientific research and results and not hearsay.

The problem with this is, tht after research, we then need to actually consult and offer our different views on these findings so more than one mind can form a appropriate opinion from the data. We then have to abide by the majority decision until it is either proved wrong or new information comes to light!

Yes my answer is 100% influenced by my Faith which uses the Writings given to us by the religions past, the Bible, the Koran and writings by the Bab, Baha’u’llah, Abdul’baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. With this we are to take into account all scientific research and results.

Quite a knowledge base to form an opinion on, one might say

Regards Tony

 

[Kaninchen]

The first question is have they read the Bible and the Second Question I ask is on what information do they base this opinion. Never had a good reply to this as yet

Would you know if you did? Do you ever try to understand other religions on their own terms?

Yes my answer is 100% influenced by my Faith which uses the Writings given to us by the religions past, the Bible, the Koran and writings by the Bab, Baha’u’llah, Abdul’baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice. With this we are to take into account all scientific research and results.

Sounds very noisy.

 

[TonyBS]

Would you know if you did? Do you ever try to understand other religions on their own terms? Sounds very noisy.

I use this advice and let you judge for yourself

“O SON OF SPIRIT! The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice; turn not away therefrom if thou desirest Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee. By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart; how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set it then before thine eyes”.

This to me is God asking this of us. Thus I judge no Religion by another Mans Terms, only by the Prophet/Messenger who gave the message and I try to see God with my Heart, by trying to understand what is true Justice.

Regards Tony

 

[Kaninchen]

Hi all. I’ve been away from the Non-Catholic Religions section for a while (though not so long that I’m inclined to reintroduce myself); but I have a question I’d like to throw out to you all, Catholics and “non-Catholics” alike.

It’s not uncommon to hear people speak as though being told something implies knowing it. Now I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with that, in itself as a manner of speaking (and I’m sure I do it too) but I want to ask: is there a point when it becomes an actual fallacy (dare I say the “being told something implies knowing it” fallacy?)?

Also, is your answer influenced by your religion?

Is the fallacy ‘route’ the best one to take in dealing with this kind of problem?

Isn’t it more a lapse of of the critical process itself?

 

[Kaninchen]

This to me is God asking this of us. Thus I judge no Religion by another Mans Terms, only by the Prophet/Messenger who gave the message and I try to see God with my Heart, by trying to understand what is true Justice.

I expect it helps.

 

[sticknstring73]

This is the spirit of the age. Many of these people are too lazy to do any real research. Also proving out a faith would be very inconvenient for most of the people I know who do this, they would have to make some major changes in their lives in order to follow a religion like Catholicism. It’s easier to just run their mouth and hope no one questions them.

FYI this also goes for people of faith who have a difficult time explaining it to others.

 

[TonyBS]

That needs further consideration I would say.

The difficulty may be the listeners.

Regards Tony

 

[SyroMalankara]

Hi all. I’ve been away from the Non-Catholic Religions section for a while (though not so long that I’m inclined to reintroduce myself); but I have a question I’d like to throw out to you all, Catholics and “non-Catholics” alike.

It’s not uncommon to hear people speak as though being told something implies knowing it. Now I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with that, in itself as a manner of speaking (and I’m sure I do it too) but I want to ask: is there a point when it becomes an actual fallacy (dare I say the “being told something implies knowing it” fallacy?)?

Also, is your answer influenced by your religion?

It depends on many factors. One is the credibility of the teller, the next is the credibility and comprehensibility of the hearer. Finally, there is the ability to retell with accuracy.
I can say so and so say the moon is made of cheese. Was so and so a PhD in cheese or the moon? Maybe there’s some credibility there. Was he joking, was I hallucinating, were we speaking the same language. Finally, did I understand what he stated and repeat the same message or did I add or delete by mistake or on purpose?

 

[Peter_J]

This is a good question and needs no editing

Oh you shaw:

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Hi all. I’ve been away from the Non-Catholic Religions section for a while (though not so long that I’m inclined to reintroduce myself); but I have a question I’d like to throw out to you all, Catholics and “non-Catholics” alike.

It’s not uncommon to hear people speak as though being told something implies knowing it. Now I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with that, in itself as a manner of speaking (and I’m sure I do it too) but I want to ask: is there a point when it becomes an actual fallacy (dare I say the “being told something implies knowing it” fallacy?)?

Also, is your answer influenced by your religion?

The difference between indoctrination and critical thinking.
Consensual indoctrination is allowing only the information YOU want to be fed into your brain without questioning.
Critical thinking involves running information through the thought process of your brain and deciding the truth of it BY questioning it.
Since you’ve spent the last month engaged in debates about a certain presidential candidate, you know this first hand.
I would say in religious circles the best examples would be the fundamentalist (Catholic and Protestant) and anyone who does not accept black and white pronouncements.

 

[Peter_J]

Is the fallacy ‘route’ the best one to take in dealing with this kind of problem?

Isn’t it more a lapse of of the critical process itself?

Well, possibly. Either way, it comes down to how far you take it.

For example, let’s say someone asks me “Do you know that it’s raining outside?” and I answer “Yes, someone just told me.” I think that’s fine; but supposing that I then suddenly decided to get really precise: then I would add “Of course I don’t *really *mean that I know it, but rather that I’m trusting that what someone told me is right.” But I probably wouldn’t actually say that, because that just isn’t conventional.

But if I said “I know it’s raining because someone just told me it is” and really meant it, then that would be a problem.

 

[sirach2v4]

Hi all. I’ve been away from the Non-Catholic Religions section for a while (though not so long that I’m inclined to reintroduce myself); but I have a question I’d like to throw out to you all, Catholics and “non-Catholics” alike.

It’s not uncommon to hear people speak as though being told something implies knowing it. Now I’m not suggesting that there’s anything wrong with that, in itself as a manner of speaking (and I’m sure I do it too) but I want to ask: is there a point when it becomes an actual fallacy (dare I say the “being told something implies knowing it” fallacy?)?

Also, is your answer influenced by your religion?

This question struck me only in a general way, not with respect to any religious belief.

In my mind, I’m paraphrasing the question as, should we believe rumors and stories we hear, especially talk around the water cooler at work? If that’s what this question is driving at, of course not.

Not only does gossip spice up the conversation, but it is destructive as well. Pope Francis made some remarks last fall, to the effect that gossiping is a form of terrorism against a person. We shouldn’t repeat gossip, we should try to not even listen to it.

I’ve seen cases first hand, where people “hear” something – perhaps one side of a story – and assume that they’ve understand it. THAT is a fallacy.

Once you are the victim of this sort of idle talk, you will appreciate how damaging and unfair it is. I hope we’re talking about the same thing.

 

[Beryllos]

I too thought the Original Post was about hearing gossip. The Catechism instructs us to avoid rash judgement, detraction, and calumny (CCC 2477-2481), but it seems to focus more on the speaking rather than the listening. However, the listener often plays an active role in gossip. He (or she) enables, encourages, and perhaps even leads the one who tells. In gossip-type situations, the listener should always consider the likelihood that the story is inaccurate, and be ready to squelch the rumor and correct the speaker with charity.

 

[Peter_J]

Since you’ve spent the last month engaged in debates about a certain presidential candidate,

Dukakis?

The difference between indoctrination and critical thinking.
Consensual indoctrination is allowing only the information YOU want to be fed into your brain without questioning.
Critical thinking involves running information through the thought process of your brain and deciding the truth of it BY questioning it.
Since you’ve spent the last month engaged in debates about a certain presidential candidate, you know this first hand.
I would say in religious circles the best examples would be the fundamentalist (Catholic and Protestant) and anyone who does not accept black and white pronouncements.

Good post. But would you agree with me about casual manners of speaking? E.g. that there’s nothing wrong with someone saying “I know it’s raining because someone just told me”?

 

[Peter_J]

This question struck me only in a general way, not with respect to any religious belief.

In my mind, I’m paraphrasing the question as, should we believe rumors and stories we hear, especially talk around the water cooler at work?

I too thought the Original Post was about hearing gossip.

I wasn’t thinking about that when I started the thread, but I welcome it as a natural extension of the topic.

 

[Son_of_Niall]

Good post. But would you agree with me about casual manners of speaking? E.g. that there’s nothing wrong with someone saying “I know it’s raining because someone just told me”?

Well then it’s a matter of trust.
I would probably say “Peter J says it’s raining outside, so I better grab my umbrella.” Not being outside, I don’t “know it for a fact”.
We accept a lot things at face value. I KNOW Australia exists because everyone says it does. But then, if I have never been there, how do I know?

 

[Peter_J]

Well then it’s a matter of trust.
I would probably say “Peter J says it’s raining outside, so I better grab my umbrella.” Not being outside, I don’t “know it for a fact”.
We accept a lot things at face value. I KNOW Australia exists because everyone says it does. But then, if I have never been there, how do I know?

I hear you man. But I’ve also been avoiding the possibility of speaking with *total *precision, which is sort of a cliff.