Heart is pulling me towards Orthodoxy

[AlNg]

If Holy Spirit is begotten from Father solely, it means Father has two paternal twins.

The Catholic teaching raises questions also. If the Son proceeds from the Father alone, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son and from the Father, how can the three Persons be equal. The Son proceeds from one source, but the Holy Spirit proceeds from two sources. That does not sound like equality but instead sounds like a huge difference which without further explanation could be interpreted by some to rule out equality between the Persons.

He was former Orthodox who converted to Catholicism IIRC.

Why did he convert. Was it because his wife was Catholic and he wanted to attend the same church on Sunday? Or did he have an extensive education in Orthodox theology?
Father Constantine was Doctor of Philosophy and professor of Slavic and Russian History in the Pontifical Oriental Institute (Rome), he was its vice rector, member of Jesuit Order, advisor of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. He was well educated in Catholic theology and yet he converted to the Russian Orthodox church.

 

[anon48198893]

You should research both sides equitably. If you just research one side, Catholic Or Orthodox, and neglect the other viewpoint, then you have done yourself intellectual harm.

 

[Vico]

Hello, I am posting this in the Traditional Catholicism forum because even though I will **welcome any …

Keep in mind that Tradition constantly assumes new forms, supplementing the old, but not superceding it. This is because the councils have made decisions on matters as they have occurred. Also liturgy has evolved.

 

[exnihilo]

The Catholic teaching raises questions also. If the Son proceeds from the Father alone, and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son and from the Father, how can the three Persons be equal. The Son proceeds from one source, but the Holy Spirit proceeds from two sources. That does not sound like equality but instead sounds like a huge difference which without further explanation could be interpreted by some to rule out equality between the Persons.

What problem are you saying uniquely arises from double procession that does not arise from single?

 

[AlNg]

There was an excellent post by guy on those forums who would explain that denying Filioque means following:

1. Father is Father because he is Father of Son
2. Therefore Son is begotten from Father
3. If Holy Spirit is begotten from Father solely, it means Father has two paternal twins. That united Holy Spirit to be second Son and not a Spirit. Because Spirit and Son share scource and are complete, they can not differ.
4. This basically defies teachings about Trinity. Can not be true.

Since this is so, why did so many Popes say the Nicene creed without the filioque and why even today do so many Catholics say the creed without the filioque at their Divine Liturgy.

 

[ioannes_pius]

Sad!

(1234567890)

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Because he saw lack of East’s knowledge about meaning of Latin terminology in judging it quite sad. Rather, he said that if you understand Latin theology with proper terminology you can not call Latins heretics and denying their teachings would lead to proclaiming heresy, same way I described Filioque above. If you deny Filioque you are basically making Holy Spirit and Son paternal twins. Filioque however does not deny equality. We know Son is begotten from Father yet he is equal to Father, is he not? Holy Spirit proceeds from Father yet he is equal to him, is he not? Even if we add another fact that Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son (after all, did not Son breathe upon Apostles and say “receive Holy Spirit” ? ) it changes nothing. Is Son inferior to Virgin Marry because she gave Him birth?

I told you numerous times, there are variations of Creed that are both true! Apostle’s Creed does not mention phrase “God from God” yet it is true. Why did Apostles not say it but Orthodox Church and Catholic Church say it now? This is no proof, literally strawman. Popes can say it with and without. Omitting Filioque is fine, denying it is not. Easy concept.

 

[AlNg]

Omitting Filioque is fine, denying it is not.

As i pointed out already, the Eastern Orthodox omit the filioque and they deny it. Further, many will say that the addition of the filioque to the creed is unacceptable.

 

[anon48198893]

I myself is tremendously disturbed by the lack of continuity in the Church pre and post Vatican II. That is what causes me to contemplate Orthodoxy.

I am at a crossroads as well. It is a tragic condition; I wish I was born 100 years ago.

However, I am not utilizing my response to cause yo doubt or despair.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

As i pointed out already, the Eastern Orthodox omit the filioque and they deny it.

Yes, and that is not fine. That is precisely why we are not One Church. We can not agree to deny truth. During reign of Henry VIII of England, Pope abandoned unity to favor truth. Catholic Church will always protect truth. This is of course our view, but I have not implied it is yours in my posts.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Although I agree there was lack of external continuity, or rather visibility of it, Catholic Church still continues to be the One Holy Apostlic and Catholic Church estabilished by Jesus. If you believe there was tradition pre-Vatican II you are even further away from Orthodoxy as Filioque would be even more enforced before Vatican II and we would openly call them schismatics. We don’t do that now, Vatican II has changed practical things. While sad, change of Vatican II was not supposed to be as dramatic as it is now. Liturgy should be more solemn even in Novus Ordo form- ad orientem and more incense.

If you are against celebration versus populum I understand that it has not been tradition of Church for millennia, but there are historical records that first liturgies were celebrated this way. After all, first Christians themselves probably used what was available in their age. This would be akin to guitars in the Church etc (I’m not saying I like them, by the way). You can still find traditional Catholics in communion with Rome who celebrate Tridentine Mass and hold to pre-V2 spirituality while not denying V2 nor authority of current Pope. I’ll pray we all find truth and God’s will in our choices.

 

[ChurchSoldier]

Best I gather is that Orthodoxy is valid and licit. Peruse their forums and you will see it is just as fractured as Anglicanism or Catholicism. There is no place that “is stable” as far as Christianity goes if your definition of stable is “everyone on the same page”.

 

[AlNg]

During reign of Henry VIII of England, Pope abandoned unity to favor truth.

Truth has varied as far as granting marriage annulments is concerned. During the reign of Henry VIII, marriage annulments were granted only for very limited reasons. In the USA in 1929, there were only 9 marriage annulments granted and they were granted only for very limited reasons. In recent years, in the USA, then number of marriage annulments granted has reached as high as 60,000 per year. this is because the truth has changed and marriage annulments are now granted for a wide variety of reasons which were not recognized in 1929.

We can not agree to deny truth.

If the filioque is true as you claim it is, then why was is it stated in the Bible that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. Since truth is so important, why is it not stated in the Holy Bible that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and from the Son.
What is the truth as regards torture? Is it right or is it wrong? The truth has changed concerning whether torture is right or wrong. At this time it is wrong, at a previous time it was allowed under certain conditions. What is the truth with regards to whether or not a slave should be subject to his master?

 

[ioannes_pius]

this is because the truth has changed

Truth does not change.

 

[AlNg]

Truth does not change.

How do you explain the examples given?
Would you say that the following statement is true or false?
It is against the will of the Holy Spirit that heretics be burned.

 

[minux]

Have you attended Mass at a Benedictine, Trappist, or Franciscan monastery? Do you have a SSPX Parish nearby? Have you attended a Jesuit Parish? You may find Catholic life outside your local Parish to be something more inline with Orthodoxy.

 

[AlNg]

Do you have a SSPX Parish nearby?

I thought that the SSPX were not in full communion with the Roman Catholic Church and that they disagreed with the Catholic Church on many issues such as ecumenical outreach for example.

 

[minux]

As I am sure you are aware, Pope Francis personally took an interest in the SSPX and made serious steps towards incorporating them back into full Communion with Rome. I would offer to the OP that attending a SSPX Mass may be exactly what he seeks over joining Orthodoxy, especially if joining Orthodoxy will bring a serious spiritual derailment.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Filioque doesn’t deny procession from Father. I told you that already many times.

Annulments are nice theme to debate, but what about Orthodox divorces and “let no man separate what God has joined together” ? Annulments have basis.

Slavery is not dogma. Does not concern me.

 

[Isaac14]

Annulments are nice theme to debate, but what about Orthodox divorces and “let no man separate what God has joined together” ? Annulments have basis.

I am Orthodox, but having been previously married to a woman who abandoned the marriage, I also had to go through the annulment process in order to marry Catholic wife. In parallel, I also worked with my Orthodox priest and bishop in order to be granted permission to remarry. It was very interesting comparing the two processes.

Contrary to your assertion that the Orthodox allow divorce, my divorce (and all divorces for that matter) are a sin and require confession. My priest and bishop looked at many of the same issues as the Catholic Tribunal did, and based on those considerations, ultimately decided that for the good of my salvation, I would be permitted to remarry.

On the Catholic side, they came to the same conclusion, though using different terminology. The only real difference is the length and bureaucratic nature of the annulment process as compared to the more personal nature of how my clergy handled it.

Having been through both, the process is very similar with identical outcomes. All of which is a long way of saying the issue is not nearly so cut and dry as you would make it.