Heart is pulling me towards Orthodoxy

[Vanny]

Yes I remember this. The interesting thing I thought was that she was the one who had filed for divorce from Joe Kennedy, so I’m not sure it was even about a woman scorned.
ETA: I believe Pope Francis had spoken about respecting the Orthodox way of handling the issue, I remember it being quite controversial on here.

 

[ziapueblo]

Canon 844 section 3 does not make acceptance of the Pope a precondition for an Orthodox Christian to receive.

And the first rule of intercommunion club, we don’t talk about intercommunion club. It’s just like fight club

ZP

 

[Isaac14]

And the first rule of intercommunion club, we don’t talk about intercommunion club. It’s just like fight club

It’s so true!

On a less-humorous side note, does it ever get tiresome having to constantly defend your Catholicity on a Catholic forum?

 

[dochawk]

And the first rule of intercommunion club, we don’t talk about intercommunion club. It’s just like fight club

When forming a KofC chapter at my byzantine parish, we have Orthodox parishioners who never formally transitioned (and some describe themselves as Orthodox). Our inquiry wentall the way up to Supreme, and they accepted that Orthodox communing in a Catholic church are Catholic for membership purposes . . .

On a less-humorous side note, does it ever get tiresome having to constantly defend your Catholicity on a Catholic forum?

Yes, although more often these days it has to with abuse of Orthodox and the denial of church teaching to do so, as in some of the recently removed posts.

In the past, it was more the condescending “instruction” of what the eastern little brothers were required to believe (also denying church teaching) to the point that I left in discust several times before the current moderation system came around . . .

hawk

 

[ziapueblo]

On a less-humorous side note, does it ever get tiresome having to constantly defend your Catholicity on a Catholic forum?

It is but I do understand where they are coming from. This is a Roman Catholic forum where people come learn to defend their faith and it’s from the Roman Catholic perspective. I think there should be more on the website about understanding the relationship between the Latin and the Eastern Catholic Churches.

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

To my understanding “separated brethren” does not carry that same classification as mortal sin and so these terms carry two very different meanings.

That’s difficult, it actually does send different message towards us Catholics but in the end schism is mortal sin- whether or not you are guilty of it, God will be judge of it, not me. However I suppose we would call any heretics separated brethren as long as they are humans (Children of God), they are our brethren and we care for their salvation. I don’t mean to somehow undervalue brethren part but Christians are called to love everyone anyway, including those in schism or heresy.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

It’s mostly that you claim to be “exactly” like Orthodox, and that we would not recognize difference in your parish (which I don’t necessarily believe as in Liturgies you would commemorate Pope, even if that is latinization), you seem to give respectful silence to Papal Infallibility and treat Pope in more Orthodox view than Catholic one. While you are right things might change, as of now they did not. It’s about obedience now- I hope many things change in discipline of Latin Church yet I don’t act like they did yet. It’s just that Latin dogma proclaimed by Council guided by Holy Spirit which is infallible, is infallible. There is no “but”, there is no “this is theologia secunda”, it either is true or is not- interpret it Eastern way of course, but ultimately truth stays same and both sides should acknowledge it. This is literally only thing that troubles me about East, that they perhaps hold out to be Orthodox too much (not talking about tradition, but ecclesiology) and forget they are Catholic first, Eastern second.

 

[ziapueblo]

It’s mostly that you claim to be “exactly” like Orthodox, and that we would not recognize difference in your parish

We express our faith in the same way as our Orthodox brethren, whether it be liturgically, theologically, spiritually or our life of prayer.

(which I don’t necessarily believe as in Liturgies you would commemorate Pope, even if that is latinization)

Depends on the Church. I know of a couple of Melkite parishes that do not.

you seem to give respectful silence to Papal Infallibility and treat Pope in more Orthodox view than Catholic one.

Not only me but also some of our Patriarchs and bishops right now, in the present day.

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

It’s just that Latin dogma proclaimed by Council guided by Holy Spirit which is infallible, is infallible.

Many of these “general Western Councils”, as Popes since Saint Paul VI have referred to them as, dealt with issues facing the Latin West. I’m assuming you are speaking of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception etc.?

There is no “but”, there is no “this is theologia secunda”,

Tell that to Archimandrite Father Robert Taft S.J. of blessed memory.

it either is true or is not- interpret it Eastern way of course, but ultimately truth stays same and both sides should acknowledge it.

It seems like, and please correct me if I’m wrong, that you are saying that we must believe in Purgatory, for example, and we can interpret that in our own way. If that is what you are saying, we as Byzantine Catholics cannot do that. It would be going against what the Church has asked us to do since Vatican II and be fully Eastern. We interpret purification after death in our own way and it’s not Purgatory. Purgatory is a place in which we make expiation for our sins. We don’t believe that. It’s not part of our theology.

Again, correct me if I’m missing your point.

This is literally only thing that troubles me about East, that they perhaps hold out to be Orthodox too much (not talking about tradition, but ecclesiology) and forget they are Catholic first, Eastern second.

Have you ever wondered why some of us see ourselves as Orthodox? Living in the west we are surrounded by not only Roman Catholics but Protestants, both who believe Catholic is synonymous with Roman Catholic. We can say we are Catholic to our hearts content but no one will believe it.

What! You don’t believe in Purgatory? You’re not Catholic!
What! You used leavened bread? You’re not Catholic!
What’s up with all the incense and chanting and vespers two or three times a week? What’s up with the Jesus Prayer why not the Rosary? You’re not Catholic!

Try defending this constantly to your Catholic brethren or Protestant friends. I’m sure people on this forum will have a heart attack when they see this, when out of town and there is no Eastern Catholic Church, my wife, daughter and I go to an Eastern Orthodox Church. This is were we feel spiritually at home. Can we receive communion? Depends on the priest.

ZP

 

[dochawk]

Depends on the Church. I know of a couple of Melkite parishes that do not.

Commemorating more that the bishop is a latinization–byzantine praxis is the priest commemorates bishop, bishops the metropolitan, metropolitans the patriarch (brother head), and patriarchs the other patriarchs.

 

[Justin_Mary]

Have you ever wondered why some of us see ourselves as Orthodox? Living in the west we are surrounded by not only Roman Catholics but Protestants, both who believe Catholic is synonymous with Roman Catholic. We can say we are Catholic to our hearts content but no one will believe it.

What! You don’t believe in Purgatory? You’re not Catholic!
What! You used leavened bread? You’re not Catholic!
What’s up with all the incense and chanting and vespers two or three times a week? What’s up with the Jesus Prayer why not the Rosary? You’re not Catholic!

Try defending this constantly to your Catholic brethren or Protestant friends. I’m sure people on this forum will have a heart attack when they see this, when out of town and there is no Eastern Catholic Church, my wife, daughter and I go to an Eastern Orthodox Church. This is were we feel spiritually at home. Can we receive communion? Depends on the priest.

ZP

I’m just going to throw some thoughts out there to help me better understand. Please don’t take this as being argumentative.

It is my understanding that the West’s understanding of Purgatory has changed. At one time we believed Purgatory to be a place subject to time. Somewhere between my first communion (1979) & now, we understand there is no time & it’s more of a state than a place.

Now, I’m thinking maybe this change has taken place due to influence of the East.

I personally think that’s what union between East & West should look like. Finding the one truth between the two truths, if that makes sense.

At the same time I understand where OrbisNonSuficit is coming from. We’re either Catholic or we’re not. Not just you or Eastern Catholics, but us Westerners as well. Because there is only one truth.

I have no problem with you saying the Jesus prayer instead of the Rosary. That’s an Eastern thing. I find it fascinating & want to learn more about it, how it developed. I would not be upset one iota if our tradition took on more Eastern flavor, especially if it were a bottom up thing.

Even if that means our understanding of purgatory changes. Or the Immaculate Conception, or original sin. The goal is truth. Isn’t it?

As children we all understood these things differently. As we’ve grown & our capacity to understand has increased, the way we understood these things changed. It’s the way it is for us as individuals, it’s the same way for us as a people, as a Church.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

We express our faith in the same way as our Orthodox brethren, whether it be liturgically, theologically, spiritually or our life of prayer.

Basic faith perhaps, but not ecclesiology for certain, not view on Latin dogmas neither anything else. Catholics are required to believe and affirm Dogmas of Faith, not Doctrines. Theologia prima can not be changed.

Depends on the Church. I know of a couple of Melkite parishes that do not.

Interesting. Personally I believe commemoration in itself is great sign of unity, and would include commemoration of Easterners in Latin services for sake of educating Latin Catholics about Eastern Catholics. Yet, I’ve been mistaken that Eastern Catholics do commemorate Pope always.

Not only me but also some of our Patriarchs and bishops right now, in the present day.

Many of these “general Western Councils”, as Popes since Saint Paul VI have referred to them as, dealt with issues facing the Latin West. I’m assuming you are speaking of Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception etc.?

Thing is, regardless of terminology, those Councils were guided by Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit showed us truth and to refuse to affirm it just to remain more “eastern” would be same way as refusing to admit any of pre-schism ecumenical councils to remain more “western” (whatever that would be, hypothetically speaking of course). Theologia secunda may vary but to reject theologia prima, therefore formulation of Ecumenical Councils, or give them respectful silence either means you think Latins are wrong about being guided by Holy Spirit or Holy Spirit was wrong to proclaim such truth. You are to be Eastern, not Eastern Orthodox. To believe in purgatory in Eastern view is fine, to reject it because “well our ancestors did that” is wrong. To choose respectful silence it so be Jansenist. Your theology is yours, however theology is a science as such, it can always start to reflect on things that need reflection in present time. Purgatory is not YET part of your theology. Theology itself is not dogma, not unchanging truth- unlike decisions of Ecumenical Councils.

I believe Latin Catholics should be more educated about Eastern Catholics and about the Church, to stop persecution from within the Church which is very flawed and very sad approach. However, same way, Eastern Catholics should not reject Universal Church and Her proclamations as “proclamations of autocephalous primate- Latin Church, that can their thing but we don’t need to care”. We seek unity as perfect as it can be, not just tolerance or acknowledgement.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I personally think that’s what union between East & West should look like. Finding the one truth between the two truths, if that makes sense.

I agree, that would be best approach but that would take quite some time. I hope for it yet there are steps to be taken first.

At the same time I understand where OrbisNonSuficit is coming from. We’re either Catholic or we’re not. Not just you or Eastern Catholics, but us Westerners as well. Because there is only one truth.

Yes, there is a parable that if one person is looking at barrel from side, he sees square and if another one looks from above, he sees circle. Ultimately, it would be best to unite those views and come to conclusion there is barrel. To deny existence of barrel or not care about it at all however, is not beneficial at all.

 

[ziapueblo]

Purgatory is not YET part of your theology.

Here we go again. Eastern on the outside as long as we are Roman on the inside. Honestly, this is of zero concern with the Vatican. The only ones who care this much are amateur apologists.

I don’t find in the writings of Saint Pope John Paul II, Benedict XVI emeritus or the current Bishop of Rome anything that says we need to change our theology.

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I did not say you need to change it but you can without changing fact you are Eastern. Theology is a science about God and supernatural things, roughly. Purgatory is part of those things that Theology, as science, cares about. As much as Palamite theology has not been there since Apostles (not necessarily that it was not believed in, but theology behind it was mostly Gregory’s job iirc), same way Purgatory has not been there before in East yet it may come. After all goal of Rites of Church is to enrich each other not to isolate from each other. This is what you seem to be missing. You do not need to be Roman inside, just be Catholics inside. There are decrees of Popes against Jansenism or Gallicanism- we do not hold them to be true. Those are now definitely heresies with proclamation of DOGMA (not doctrine) of Papal Infallibility, signed by Eastern Patriarchs aswell as Pope and Cardinals.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I didn’t mean to overstate it. But Islam was pushed back during the first Crusade and Asia Minor was given back to the Byzantines. Levantine Islam had become feudal by then and the Arab hold on the Levant was not as strong as it had been previously or would be again under the Ottomans.

 

[ziapueblo]

I did not say you need to change it but you can without changing fact you are Eastern.

Hmmm

Again, it seems that Roman Catholics just wish us to be Eastern in our Liturgy. This sums it up:

same way Purgatory has not been there before in East yet it may come.

Interestingly enough everything that Saint Pope John Paul II ever wrote about the East, whether in communion with Rome or not, goes against this.

Orientale Lumen:
~ “Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ’s Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.”
~ “Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church’s catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church(2) which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.”
Note “together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters.” We, as Eastern Catholics are Orthodox in every way.
~ “In the study of revealed truth East and West have used different methods and approaches in understanding and confessing divine things. It is hardly surprising, then, if sometimes one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed them better. In such cases, these various theological formulations are often to be considered complementary rather than conflicting.”
~ “It has been stressed several times that the full union of the Catholic Eastern Churches with the Church of Rome which has already been achieved must not imply a diminished awareness of their own authenticity and originality. Wherever this occurred, the Second Vatican Council has urged them to rediscover their full identity, because they have ‘the right and the duty to govern themselves according to their own special disciplines. For these are guaranteed by ancient tradition, and seem to be better suited to the customs of their faithful and to the good of their souls.’”

This is just form one document and I could quote so much more from it as well as many others written by Saint Pope John Paul II when writing about the Eastern Churches.

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

As much as Palamite theology has not been there since Apostles

In the 20th century Saint Gregory Palamas’ teaching was seen positively by Western Catholic theologians such as Henri de Lubac, Jean Danielou and Louis Bouyer. In the 1930s Danielou wrote how excited he was to read of Palamas’ “vision of humanity transfigured by the divine energies”.

In 1996 Saint Pope John Paul II writing about Hesychasm, "In the East hesychasm means a method of prayer characterized by deep tranquility of the spirit, which is engaged in constant contemplation of God by invoking the name of Jesus. There was no lack of tension with the Catholic viewpoint on certain aspects of this practice. However, we should acknowledge the good intentions which guided the defense of this spiritual method, that is, to emphasize the concrete possibility that man is given to unite himself with the Triune God in the intimacy of his heart, in that deep union of grace which Eastern theology likes to describe with the particularly powerful term of ‘theosis’ (‘divinization’). “Precisely in this regard Eastern spirituality has amassed a very rich experience which was vigorously presented in the famous collection of texts significantly entitled Philokalia (‘love of beauty’) and gathered by Nicodemus the Hagiorite at the end of the 18th century. … “How many things we have in common! It is time for Catholics and Orthodox to make an extra effort to understand each other better and to recognize with the renewed wonder of brotherhood what the Spirit is accomplishing in their respective traditions towards a new Christian springtime” (John Paul II, Eastern Theology Has Enriched the Whole Church ).

Saint Pope John Paul II has even referred to Saint Gregory Palamas as a Saint!

ZP

 

[StAugustine]

I recommend before you make a change that you familiarize yourself with the debates within Orthodoxy and who they say are Schismatics.

On the one hand, you have the Greek Old Calendarists who severed communion with the Greek Church over the adoption of a New Calendar. The New Calendarists rightly condemned them as Schismatics for declaring the Greek Hierarchy deposed by the very fact of accepting a New Calendar. The Old Calendarists did not summon any bishops to a trial or deal with the issue in a canonical way at all and devolved into fanaticism, saying the New Calendarist Sacraments were invalid.

Now wait, if this is a schismatic act, then the Orthodox are self-condemned- for which Latin Bishop or Hierarchy did they canonically try in a court in order to condemn? When is the Papacy even first anathematized by NAME? 1583.

Moreover, in an Orthodox synod, you have the patriarch and his Metropolitans. Now, if the Metropolitans sever communion with the patriarch and declare him deposed without a trial are they Schismatics? Yes. Nikodemos of Athos talks about this in his commentary on the canons- no canonical penalty has any force unless a living council enacts it.

Again, what living council ever summoned and canonically tried and anathematized the Latins or the Pope? None.

As for Changes, just read about all the opinions of those who refused to accept the innovations of Gregory Palamas which are now standard Orthodoxy.

Why do the Orthodox always break up the reunion attempts first?

Schism. It won’t wash.

 

[ziapueblo]

There is plenty in Catholic theology that affirms that the Orthodox do need to change their theology.

Interesting . . . I’m Byzantine Catholic and the Church accepts our theology as it is and as Saint Pope John Paul II put it, “Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters .”

The Church is much larger than 3 Popes.

The Church is much lager than Rome

She goes back all the way to Christ. I know that might sound hard to believe

Again, I’m Byzantine Catholic, I think I know the Churches history pretty well, but thanks!

ZP