Heart is pulling me towards Orthodoxy

[OrbisNonSufficit]

It’s Roman Catholics who only see it as Rome’s way or the highway. If not, you ain’t Catholic! I’m kinda tired of it.

There are many of them, yes. However, it is not a highway- Catholic Church is the highway, and Rome is just the first truck that leads everybody else. No one who tries to get before it or deny it, or go other way can do so without leaving the highway.

I am just implying going Jansenist or Gallican because of some people who deny Eastern Catholics to be part of Church is just going to the other extreme. No matter if you go right or left, you are straying from the path.

 

[ziapueblo]

It’s funny. I have read all kinds of comments about the infallibility of the Church and the Popes leadership but when the Church and Popes have handed out documents and writings concerning the East, both Catholic and Orthodox, it all seems to go out the window and is totally ignored. That’s how I see it at least because we are constantly attacked for being Eastern and “copying” the Orthodox. How ridiculous! Makes me ill

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Church and Popes have handed out documents and writings concerning the East, both Catholic and Orthodox, it all seems to go out the window and is totally ignored. That’s how I see it at least because we are constantly attacked for being Eastern and “copying” the Orthodox. How ridiculous! Makes me ill

Thing is, those were either not dogmatic pronouncements ex-cathedra or are interpreted in their extremes. Popes affirm the truth, they do not create it. By copying Orthodox if it would mean that you adhere to being more like Orthodox without being more like Eastern Catholics were before schism (not literally, I mean taking examples from that) or it would be wrong. If someone means you are copying Orthodox by adhering to your own tradition then they are clearly wrong. Funnily enough, while here I seem like the Latin trying to enforce East to become Latin, in real life I am generally the one defending Eastern traditions and Eastern Churches to be true authentic Catholic sui iuris Churches. You can not even imagine the joy I had when I realized something like Eastern Catholic Churches, living embodiment of unity, exist. But unity is within Church, not unity with those outside it.

 

[ziapueblo]

Thing is, those were either not dogmatic pronouncements ex-cathedra or are interpreted in their extremes.

So ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM, a document of the Second Vatican Coincil is just there to make us Easterners happy! Give me a break! It must be nice. When a Pope or the Church makes a statement of something you don’t like all you have to do is say it’s not a dogmatic pronouncement. Must be nice :+1:t3:

By copying Orthodox if it would mean that you adhere to being more like Orthodox without being more like Eastern Catholics were before schism (not literally, I mean taking examples from that) or it would be wrong.

We’re Orthodox in communion with Rome. If you don’t like it you can send an email to the Pope. Although this Pope, as far as I have seen, doesn’t even refer to himself as Pope or Supreme Pontiff. Just as the Bishop of Rome.

Funnily enough, while here I seem like the Latin trying to enforce East to become Latin, in real life I am generally the one defending Eastern traditions and Eastern Churches to be true authentic Catholic sui iuris Churches.

Except when it comes to Purgatory or the IC. We better believe as Roman Catholics.

You can not even imagine the joy I had when I realized something like Eastern Catholic Churches, living embodiment of unity, exist.

Until you see that we are called to be as the Orthodox are?

ZP

 

[StAugustine]

No, it’s not. WHAT does the Vatican encourage? The Synodikon of the Holy Spirit? Would you side with Bekkos or Gregory of Cyprus? Which of the two is authentically eastern?

 

[ziapueblo]

Again, hilarious! You act as if Roman Catholic bishops or Popes have never had disagreements or taught differently.

WHAT does the Vatican encourage?

From Orientalium Ecclesiarium:
~ “The Catholic Church holds in high esteem the institutions, liturgical rites, ecclesiastical traditions and the established standards of the Christian life of the Eastern Churches, for in them, distinguished as they are for their venerable antiquity, there remains conspicuous the tradition that has been handed down from the Apostles through the Fathers (1) and that forms part of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church.”
*I wonder who has these same “institutions, liturgical rites, ecclesiastical traditions”? The Orthodox maybe?
~ “Between these there exists an admirable bond of union, such that the variety within the Church in no way harms its unity; rather it manifests it, for it is the mind of the Catholic Church that each individual Church or Rite should retain its traditions whole and entire and likewise that it should adapt its way of life to the different needs of time and place.(2)”
*My Church practices the Byzantine Rite. Who else practices the Byzantine Rite? The Eastern Orthodox of course. A Rite is much more than a liturgical patrimony, “§1. A rite is the liturgical, theological, spiritual and disciplinary patrimony, culture and circumstances of history of a distinct people, by which its own manner of living the faith is manifested in each Church sui iuris. §2. The rites treated in this code, unless otherwise stated, are those which arise from the Alexandrian, Antiochene, Armenian, Chaldean and Constantinopolitan traditions.”
~“he Sacred Council, therefore, not only accords to this ecclesiastical and spiritual heritage the high regard which is its due and rightful praise, but also unhesitatingly looks on it as the heritage of the universal Church. For this reason it solemnly declares that the Churches of the East, as much as those of the West, have a full right and are in duty bound to rule themselves, each in accordance with its own established disciplines, since all these are praiseworthy by reason of their venerable antiquity, more harmonious with the character of their faithful and more suited to the promotion of the good of souls.”

We could go on and on from this document.

ZP

 

[StAugustine]

So do you side with Bekkos or lord Gregory of Cyprus regarding filioque? Does your bishop anathematize Bekkos in the Synodikon of Orthodoxy? I was Orthodox FYI, I know these issues rather well. I think anathemas contra Rome do not belong to the universal church now do they?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

So ORIENTALIUM ECCLESIARUM , a document of the Second Vatican Coincil is just there to make us Easterners happy! Give me a break! It must be nice. When a Pope or the Church makes a statement of something you don’t like all you have to do is say it’s not a dogmatic pronouncement. Must be nice :+1:t3:

Please try to read my sentences before replying, I said either it is not infallible OR it is interpreted in extremes- there is nothing in that document that would assert Jansenism being fine.

We’re Orthodox in communion with Rome.

Why would someone insist on being called same name those in schism are? I mean it’s just a phrase to express you are like Eastern Orthodox in your beliefs, but there are fundamental differences- key being you are part of One True Church.

Except when it comes to Purgatory or the IC. We better believe as Roman Catholics.

Eh, is purgatory true or not? Believing in truth never hurt anyone, not spiritually anyway. It is not needed but I wouldn’t prohibit it same way you do.

Until you see that we are called to be as the Orthodox are?

Not ecclesiology-wise. Orthodox Christians use liturgical rites of Eastern Catholic Church, whom they were part of until the Schism. It’s not the other way around. Syllabus of Errors applies to Universal Church of which Eastern Catholics are rightful part.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Orientalus Ecclesiarum:

These individual Churches, whether of the East or the West, although they differ somewhat among themselves in rite (to use the current phrase), that is, in liturgy, ecclesiastical discipline, and spiritual heritage, are, nevertheless, each as much as the others, entrusted to the pastoral government of the Roman Pontiff, the divinely appointed successor of St. Peter in primacy over the universal Church. They are consequently of equal dignity, so that none of them is superior to the others as regards rite and they enjoy the same rights and are under the same obligations, also in respect of preaching the Gospel to the whole world (cf. Mark 16, 15) under the guidance of the Roman Pontiff.

By the name Eastern patriarch, is meant the bishop to whom belongs jurisdiction over all bishops, not excepting metropolitans, clergy and people of his own territory or rite, in accordance with canon law and without prejudice to the primacy of the Roman Pontiff.

(Note that while primacy is used in this document, when speaking about Eastern Patriarchs phrase “precedence of honor” is used. This indicates primacy of Roman Pontiff is therefore not the same as precedence of honor in regards of Eastern Patriarchs. After all, title of Cardinal is higher in esteem than title of Patriarch according to norms of Catholic Church. )

Also, rights of Pope:
The patriarchs with their synods are the highest authority for all business of the patriarchate, including the right of establishing new eparchies and of nominating bishops of their rite within the territorial bounds of the patriarchate, without prejudice to the inalienable right of the Roman Pontiff to intervene in individual cases (emphasis added)
It belongs to the patriarch with his synod, or to the supreme authority of each church with the council of the hierarchs, to regulate the use of languages in the sacred liturgical functions and, after reference to the Apostolic See, of approving translations of texts into the vernacular.
(again, speaks about Pope and Apostolic See having final say in Liturgical reforms regarding language)

Common participation in worship ( communicatio in sacris ) which harms the unity of the Church or involves formal acceptance of error or the danger of aberration in the faith, of scandal and indifferentism, is forbidden by divine law
Eastern Christians who are in fact separated in good faith from the Catholic Church, if they ask of their own accord and have the right dispositions, may be admitted to the sacraments of Penance, the Eucharist and the Anointing of the Sick. Further, Catholics may ask for these same sacraments from those non-Catholic ministers whose churches possess valid sacraments, as often as necessity or a genuine spiritual benefit recommends such a course and access to a Catholic priest is physically or morally impossible. (emphasis added)
(therefore attending Liturgy of Eastern Orthodoxy where Latin Rite Catholics are to fullfil Sunday Obligation is wrong, and Sunday Obligation is talked about for Eastern Catholics in this exact document- setting requirements of fulfilling it for Eastern Catholics)

 

[dochawk]

this is not about thinking, this is infallible document.

So you are saying that VI, VII, and the last few popes are in error?

I’m checking out of this one before I write something I regret.

 

[Margaret_Ann]

The Eastern Catholic Churches of the Byzantine Tradition have the Divine Liturgy too! Why don’t you encourage the OP to attend an Eastern Catholic Church?

 

[Margaret_Ann]

Welcome home, GD! Wishing you a fruitful Great Fast (Lent).

 

[Margaret_Ann]

17 years ago, God used a SSPX priest to save me from entering into a bad marriage. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be posting here today.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I never said they are in error- I just said I hold to infallibility of Popes and Ecumenical Councils. But not JUST latest ones, all of them. Some quotes hold higher authority than others- some things are reformable, others are not. This concept is very easy- there have been many errors of Age that affected thinking of Church but never it’s dogmatic stance. For example heliocentrism, which was not really condemned just not enforced, is not acknowledged- but not infallibly. This is why infallible statements hold much more authority, because Holy Spirit has much more authority than assembly of several Bishops or words of Pope that do not come through Peter. I am not saying they aren’t true nor am I affirming them by this post, I am saying that in arguments they hold less authority. That’s all.

 

[AlNg]

The Holy Roman Church “firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”…, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

This is what happens if you choose to become a schismatic.

Does that mean that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Eastern Orthodox will all go to hell unless they repent of their error?

There is no change. Those who change are heretics. Every dogmatic pronouncement of the Roman Church is current and binding in the sense in which it was first proclaimed. Anyone who says otherwise is simply not a Catholic, for they have abandoned its essence- tradition.

. Latin Dogmas are irreformable, true and according to will of Holy Spirit.

If Holy Roman Church professes and proclaims something in Ecumenical Council guided by Holy Spirit, then Holy Spirit guided them to this profession and proclamation.

 

[AlNg]

It’s Roman Catholics who only see it as Rome’s way or the highway. If not, you ain’t Catholic! I’m kinda tired of it.

Is it true that there are some Eastern Catholics who have become members of the Eastern Orthodox Church because they feel slighted by Roman Catholics?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Does that mean that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and Eastern Orthodox will all go to hell unless they repent of their error?

Yes and no. Everyone who gets to Heaven gets full knowledge of truth therefore he converts to Catholicism- that’s it kind of.

Is it true that there are some Eastern Catholics who have become members of the Eastern Orthodox Church because they feel slighted by Roman Catholics?

Yes, for instance many Orthodox in America are such. Most unfortunate is that Latin Bishop in America screwed up relations with Eastern Catholics. Though, if you want to use that as argument, it’s the same argument people could have for orthodox becoming unionists in wake of Lyons and Florence, who included many Greek Fathers as they realized that despite political circumstances concerning the Council, Latins had a point ( and a big “what if” they were tired of all latin-hate and just wanted unity like Jesus did, etc).

I’m pretty sure that despite no doctrinal differences as Eastern Catholics have from Latin Catholics (theologia secunda) existing between Eastern and “Western-Rite”

Spoiler

Eastern

Orthodox, Western-Rite

Spoiler

Eastern

Orthodox actually get bullied for having different Liturgies, being called form of “uniatism”, their continuity of Liturgies being doubted and so on. Also, Western-Rite of Orthodoxy seems to have just different Liturgies that are heavily easternized, but there is no difference in theology or any other interpretation. It seems like many people just want uniformity, which is not beneficial- no matter which Church they adhere to.

 

[D.Erasmus.R]

I think Martin Luther may have thought something similar.
In fact, I a theologian in Finland on the similarities between Orthodoxy and Lutheranism.

 

[StAugustine]

Yes. Look up the history of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church.

Fr Alexis Thoth was a Byzantine Catholic priest in the US in the early 20th century who got into conflict with the Latin Bishop John Ireland, a rather abusive personality who questioned every eastern distinctive and acted to undermine the Eastern Catholics.

So Fr. Alexis abandoned communion with Rome for communion with Constantinople. Hence the Rusyn (Carpatho-Russian) Orthodox Church.

 

[Isaac14]

Orthodox Church denies communion to women during their period. The Orthodox Church may also regard a miscarriage as a sin.

Do you have a source for these assertions? My experience directly contradicts this.