Heart is pulling me towards Orthodoxy

[Isaac14]

I could say you are more concerned with us easterners being in full agreement with the west more than whether

As an Orthodox Christian looking into the Catholic world through this forum, seeing how strongly some Latin Catholics react against their Eastern brothers, i really wonder if full restoration of communion is actually desired.

Fortunately I realize voices on the internet don’t hold much authority; i’ll trust the theologians from both our churches who are slowly and deliberately working through the issues in the hopes of achieving a true restoration of communion.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I do want union to happen, but I want more than Florence, more than Lyons. We can not leave loose ends. I do not resent East, I resent someone pretending Rite is more than Church, same way I resent people pretending Bishop is more than Holy Spirit or Priest being more than Christ. Same way Latin Church alone is not Catholic Church (not anymore at least), same way East alone is not Catholic Church.

 

[Babaganoush]

Alexis Toth probably didn’t act perfectly, but he was forced into a decision. Tradition is the whole faith. If we abandon tradition then we have abandoned the faith. And yes I am aware of the common distinction between big T tradition and little t traditions. But it is a somewhat meaningless distinction since the Big T is lived through the little t.

The west believes in union at all costs, unless the bishop of Rome determines you have gone too far of course then he can excommunicate you. Ultimately it amounts to subjection of the east to the west. If the west doesn’t accept us as we are then we are expected to change to go along with what is expected of us.

 

[Babaganoush]

That is true the voices on the internet are pretty meaningless. They don’t reflect reality very accurately.

The divisions in Christianity are a great tragedy. I don’t think there will be any kind of unity until people realize that their enemy isn’t the Orthodox or the Catholics or even Protestants. We have our differences but that doesn’t mean we are enemies. There has to at least be some good will between us, and that isn’t always the case.

 

[ziapueblo]

That’s playing a victim, while your faith’s expression is not Latin, it is Catholic.

But it doesn’t feel that way. Not sure if it was this thread or another, we Byzantines were gettin harassed because we venerate, and Rome has no issue with this, Saint Gregory Palamas.

I would argue that Alexis Toth wanted to be Eastern more than Catholic, so he left Church and died outside of it’s communion and brought many souls with him.

No, he left the Church because Bishop Ireland would not let him minister to his own flock because he was a married priest, even though he was a widower and not even under the Latin jurisdiction.

Catholic ecclesiology (primacy of Pope, infallibility of Pope, Papal Supreme Jurisdiction)

As for Papal Infallibility, I’m quite sure that this can be clarified into a form acceptable to Orthodoxy (it is, in fact, something of a dead letter, since the odds of another ex Cathedra definition are slim to nil). Orthodox theologians deeply involved in the ecumenical dialogue are far more concerned about the issue of universal, immediate and ordinary jurisdiction; most would require a written clarification of just how, when and why the Pope could intervene in the affairs of Sister Churches.

ZP

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

If the west doesn’t accept us as we are then we are expected to change to go along with what is expected

that should not be case, I am merely saying to sometimes try and survive the storm instead of jumping the ship. If Latin Catholic objects to Eastern tradition, I am supposed to correct him too.

There has to at least be some good will between us, and that isn’t always the case.

Yes, in all things charity- as Saint Augustine said. As I mentioned earlier, being friendly is required of us towards everybody, but false courtesy would be another extreme. We can imitate many great Saints of both East and West in their approach. I will simply present Catholic approach (not just current, but also historical with it’s implications that are legitimate even today) while trying to maintain that charity.

After all, what is not of God but of men, will crumble and Schism is not God’s doing- therefore it will crumble too, and unity will prevail. That’s what we have been promised, and what we eagerly await.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Byzantines were gettin harassed because we venerate, and Rome has no issue with this, Saint Gregory Palamas.

By Eastern Orthodox convert, and it was a discussion of what it means to be Eastern, not about Rome.

he left the Church because Bishop Ireland would not let him minister to his own flock

Padre Pio was in similar situation but remained faithful to Church and obedient to authorities. I am not defending Archbishop Ireland’s stance, but neither am I defending Padre Pio’s superiors stance.

 

[_zarlengo]

I was not unlike you about a year ago. I felt so betrayed when I saw the reverence at an Eastern Orthodox liturgy whilst my liturgy was singing “Go Make a Difference” at the foot of the crucifix… Consider this, though:

1. 24 eastern rites are in communion with Rome under the pope. You can get any version of an Eastern Orthodox liturgy in a Catholic context.
2. Their churches are only alike inasmuch as doctrine until 1054. This leads to modern moral dilemmas that they officially disagree on.
3. Several Eastern Orthodox churches, especially in eastern Europe, were under the yoke of communist states. In other words, there were times in their history when they have had very similar issues of confusion and apparent contradiction to the post-Vatican II Catholic Church.

These were just some superficial things that drew me away from apostasy from the Catholic Church. There is some interesting theology behind the schism as well. Look for traditional Catholic materials for that. Modernists don’t have an answer to Eastern Orthodoxy because they couldn’t care less about Catholic orthodoxy.

 

[StAugustine]

I was the one objecting to the veneration. The main reason being Gregory Palamas fought against Rome. Now for the life of me, why would a Catholic venerate a man who fought against the Church with whom they entered communion? It has the appearance of schizophrenia.

I don’t say it to be rude or shallow, but it appears simply to be a result of the indefferentism spawned by the ecumenical movement.

 

[ziapueblo]

Now for the life of me, why would a Catholic venerate a man who fought against the Church with whom they entered communion?

It the same as Catholics who venerate Saint Mark of Ephesus or Saint Alexis Toth. They are not venerated because of opposition to Rome.

It has the appearance of schizophrenia.

Some could say the same of Eastern Catholics and communion with Rome. Both have very different liturgies, theology, prayer and spiritual lives.

I don’t say it to be rude or shallow, but it appears simply to be a result of the indefferentism spawned by the ecumenical movement.

Well, if that’s the case, many of us Eastern Catholics will just head to Orthodoxy if we are not appreciated. The beauty of Catholicism is it’s communion yet also it’s unique diversity.

ZP

 

[StAugustine]

That’s a wrong reason to be Orthodox. You don’t convert over personal acceptance but objective Truth. That was exactly Alexis Toth’s error.

 

[ziapueblo]

That’s a wrong reason to be Orthodox.

Being backed into corner and not being allowed to practice your Eastern tradition is a serious problem. I’m sure Roman Catholics would take issue if Eastern Churches forced their traditions on them.

That was exactly Alexis Toth’s error.

He was not allowed to minister to his flock. That is a a problem! It is a problem that not until a few years ago that Rome “allowed” for a married priesthood for the Eastern Catholic Church in the United States.

ZP

 

[ziapueblo]

Now for the life of me, why would a Catholic venerate a man who fought against the Church with whom they entered communion? It has the appearance of schizophrenia.

One last point, whether or not someone venerates St. Photios, Mark of Ephesus, Alexis Toth or Gregory Palamas is not a test of one’s faithfulness to the Church. It is possible for us to respectfully disagree on this matter.

ZP

 

[AlNg]

Being backed into corner and not being allowed to practice your Eastern tradition is a serious problem.

But in the Church of 1300 years ago, the Pope war recognized in the east as first among equals. Have the Eastern Catholics changed the teaching of the early Church so that now they recognize the Pope as the infallible head of the Church and as someone who has universal and supreme jurisdiction of the entire Church, East and West?

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

He was not allowed to minister to his flock. That is a a problem!

Padre Pio took it with obedience to Church and remained faithful even after he was unjustly forbidden the same. Obedience and humility is something Christ has always taught us. While it is of course wrong to suppress tradition of Church, it would be nice to trust God to resolve that- same way Padre Pio trusted God and remained faithful to his promise of being obedient to Church. Alexis Toth broke his vow to be obedient to Church. Breaking vow is not laughing matter.

If you venerate Alexis Toth for fighting for Eastern tradition, be it, but let’s not pretend leaving communion and establishing Church in Schism is a good thing. Same way let’s not venerate Gregory Palamas for being opposed to Rome (however that is, I’m not sure). Now I can not see how Mark of Ephesus falls into category of virtuous man who did something for the East, other than renouncing union with Rome, but that’s your private matter.

Beauty of Catholicism is that Catholicism is true Church of Christ- that is the most beautiful thing Church has going for Her. Even if we had no Pope, no Rites and no members, being Church of Christ is infinitely more important. Even if we had one rite, being Church of Christ is infinitely more important. Of course, Church possesses many Rites that enrich her, but in the beginning this was not the case and there was period where there were few Eastern Churches that remained in full communion with Church of Christ. We live now, we respect our tradition and fight for it if need be, but with obedience to Church and to authorities- and therefore obedience to God. I can not imagine someone saying to Jesus “well I believe your Church is right but it was mean to me, because fallible humans sinned, so I left it”. Isn’t that same as saying “Well I believe your Apostles were right but Judas betrayed you and that was very wrong to make him one of Apostles so I’m not gonna follow them nor you”.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

But in the Church of 1300 years ago, the Pope war recognized in the east as first among equals.

Uh, that’s a bit wrong. He was recognized as having primacy which also meant he could intervene in territories of other Patriarchs as we saw numerous times in history, when heresy was rampant in certain Patriarchates (Iconoclasm in Constantinople for example).

Have the Eastern Catholics changed the teaching of the early Church so that now they recognize the Pope as the infallible head of the Church and as someone who has universal and supreme jurisdiction of the entire Church, East and West?

No, they just keep teaching of Early Church and recognize Pope as Successor of Peter who is there to guard truth of Church, as pre-schism Pope Saint Gregory said, even with infallible statements that Pope can make. They hold to historically proven supreme jurisdiction, unlike Orthodoxy that just tried to escape it’s duties towards Peter’s Seat and escape obedience Christ wanted from us.

You are stating your opinions as facts.

 

[Isaac14]

Alexis Toth broke his vow to be obedient to Church. Breaking vow is not laughing matter.

St Alexis was in a “no win” situation. He could either obey Abp. Ireland and in so doing disobey his Bishop that sent him, or obey his bishop and disobey Abp Ireland. I’m open to correction, but I don’t believe Abp Ireland had any actual authority over St Alexis to which he had to be obedient. Someone above, I think, mentioned that Abp Ireland’s actions violated the treaty of Brest with his actions against St Alexis. Abp. Ireland made it impossible for him to minister to the very flock to which he was sent

I can not imagine someone saying to Jesus “well I believe your Church is right but it was mean to me, because fallible humans sinned, so I left it”.

I really hope you don’t mean to say that those who leave because of scandal are no different than those who caused the scandal.

 

[Salibi]

Forgive me if I have a faulty understanding of this matter, but weren’t Alexis Toth and his Eastern Catholic flock treated badly by John Ireland? It is my understanding that they had recieved assurances from Rome that they would be allowed to keep practicing their own Rite while living as immigrants in America. Bishop Ireland was apparently not informed of these assurances, or if he was, chose to ignore them. I cannot imagine how I would have reacted had I been the priest of a flock being bullied by an overbearing, Latinizing, and, dare I say it, possibly racist Archbishop.
No offense meant.
Christ’s peace.

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

Yes, that’s right. I guess I would have contacted Rome or so, but leaving Church is not a good thing- I’m not saying I would have done better, but I am not a Saint (yet, I hope). Padre Pio was denounced as maniac who hurt himself to cause himself stigmata- unjustly at that. He did remain faithful to Church though.

Of course, Archbishop Ireland acted wrongly, and his actions can not be defended. Does not mean we should canonize someone who went on and joined schismatic group because there was a hardship in Church of Christ.

No offense meant.

None taken.

 

[Salibi]

Ah, but I don’t think Saint Padre Pio’s case can be compared to this. Alexis Toth was wrong to leave, but I don’t believe he can faulted for it given the circumstances.

Is Alexis Toth a saint in Catholicism? I’m not aware that he is.