Heart is pulling me towards Orthodoxy

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Salibi said:
Is Alexis Toth a saint in Catholicism? I’m not aware that he is.
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Discussion went on about some people recognizing him as Saint privately- we are simply speaking about what for could he be venerated.
Salibi said:
Alexis Toth was wrong to leave, but I don’t believe he can faulted for it given the circumstances.
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I agree he was in hard situation, yet he should not be venerated for error/mistake, however hard it was to do the right thing (he could be venerated in spite of it, but not for it). No one could blame Saint Stephen if he ran away and did not proclaim Gospel when was persecuted- but he chose not to and is venerated for that, being protomartyr of entire Church.
 
I agree. He should not be venerated for leaving. But as you said, it was a messy situation, and I suppose only God can make heads or tails of it- as He doubtlessly has already. It may be that Alexis Toth is in Heaven now, or not. I wouldn’t be surprised if he was, though. He did what he did to protect and provide for his flock-as all priests should. It’s sad, however, that the only way he could do that was by leaving. Shows you how hard Bishop Ireland must have been pressuring him.
@ziapueblo much respect for my Byzantine brothers and sisters, but I personally will not recognize him as Saint Alexis until Rome does so. I defer always to the Holy See in these matters, as I did with Saint Gregory Palamas.
 
Salibi said:
only way he could do that was by leaving
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I doubt that was only way- God would not want someone to leave Church and would provide them with different solution, perhaps He just needed time. I would suggest waiting and praying, reffering to Holy See or anything else would have been suitable- I understand also, it would be hard. But we, Christians, are not called to do easy things but hard ones, and Saints should be our role models. I just do not view Alexis Toth as suitable role model. If Byzantine Catholics who venerate him can take a good example from him despite him schisming from Church, nice. But if good example consists of defending tradition while tearing apart Bride of Christ (or tearing himself and others from Her), I can not agree nor stay silent.
 
EWTN article:

“The story of Alexis Toth is an important part of Eastern Catholic history, especially here in the United States. After reading numerous accounts of what happened, including accounts written by Father Alexis himself, I have reached the conclusion that he did not leave the Catholic Church by his own volition, but was essentially “kicked out” as part of a campaign of harassment against him.

To understand this tragic story, one must first be aware of the situation in the United States. The Catholic Church was an immigrant Church, and was viewed by the Protestant majority as being strange and potentially dangerous. Many of the Catholic bishops in this country, led by Archbishop John Ireland of St. Paul, Minnesota, wanted to create an “American” form of Catholicism that would seem less foreign to the Protestants. Their plans were thwarted when a large wave of Greek Catholic immigrants arrived. These Greek Catholics had “strange” customs, such as infant chrismation and married priests, and were viewed as a terrible embarassment to Catholicism by some of these bishops.

Therefore, the bishops came up with a solution: they would require the Greek Catholics to be assimilated into the Latin Church, and become good Americanized Roman Catholics. In the midst of this scenario arrived Fr. Alexis Toth, a widowed Greek Catholic priest from Presov. He was sent by his bishop to minister to the Greek Catholic community in Minnesota. When he arrived, Fr. Toth introduced himself to Archbishop Ireland. The Archbishop noticed that Fr. Alexis was wearing a wedding band, and questioned him about it. Fr. Alexis explained that he was a widower, and wore the ring out of remembrance for his wife. Upon hearing this Archbishop Ireland angrily dismissed him from his office, and informed him that he was not welcome in the diocese. The Archbishop explained that he was going to have a Roman Catholic priest serve the Greek Catholics, who would henceforth be assimilated into the Latin Church. Fr. Alexis was horrified, and continued ministering to the Greek Catholic faithful. In response, Archbishop Ireland launched a campaign of harassment against Fr. Alexis, which drove him out of the Catholic Church.

Meanwhile, Father Alexis wanted to preserve the Byzantine faith and heritage of his immigrant flock. Since the Catholic bishops were overtly hostile to this endeavor, he decided to seek out the help of an Eastern Orthodox bishop. According to his journel, he believed this to be the only way to prevent their Eastern traditions from being forcibly removed. Thus, Fr. Alexis converted to Orthodoxy and eventually 100,000 Greek Catholics joined him. Several years ago he was canonized "St. Alexis Toth, the Father of Orthodoxy in America . . .
 
I will not judge a dead man. And I will not pretend to understand what it’s like to be in his situation. God is just, I trust He dealt to each his deserved punishment, and to each his deserved reward.
 
. . .

“Responding to these events, the Vatican intervened and appointed a bishop for all Greek Catholics in the United States, Bishop Soter Ortinsky. Thus, the Greek Catholic immigrants were saved from forced assimilation into the Latin Church. But by then much damage had already been done, and could not be undone.

This is a very sad chapter in Catholic history, and it is my hope that someday the wounds and schism caused by these events will be completely healed.”

ZP
 
As an eastern Christian, St Alexis wouldn’t have appealed to Rome, but rather to his own church’s Hierarchs. He did so and received no response. He was left abandoned by his own bishop and harassed by Abp. Ireland.
 
Salibi said:
but I personally will not recognize him as Saint Alexis until Rome does so.
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And you don’t have to. At the same time, all Catholics may have a private devotion to any Orthodox Saint if we choose to.

ZP
 
Thanks ziapueblo for this informative article. I had read something similar a while back.
 
Is not obedience to Church promised by every priest during his consecration? Obedience to Bishop, Pope and other authorities? I am not saying this was a happy episode, and I find Archbishop Ireland to be at fault, but Schism is never the answer.
Salibi said:
I will not judge a dead man. And I will not pretend to understand what it’s like to be in his situation. God is just, I trust He dealt to each his deserved punishment, and to each his deserved reward.
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I just judge his actions, so we take example from them or prevent them. If someone believes Alexis Toth is in Heaven, then it’s alright to venerate him privately- it’s just that they should be aware of Schism being evil, and therefore never defend that fact.
ziapueblo said:
Several years ago he was canonized "St. Alexis Toth, the Father of Orthodoxy in America . . .
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Same could be said about Marcel Lefebvre, who stood up for traditional Catholic Mass etc. When he was denied his traditional stances, he would schism from Rome by creating new Bishops and estabilished, wait for it, SSPX- now semi-schismatic group. Alexis Toth however, unlike SSPX who are only semi-schismatic because they set up no territorial jurisdiction, joined Church with other territorial jurisdiction therefore came to be in true full schism.
 
I have no problem with the veneration of Alexis Toth- nor is it my place to judge other people’s practices. If he is in heaven, great. If he is not, God can still hear the petitions, and answer accordingly.
 
Isaac14 said:
As an eastern Christian, St Alexis wouldn’t have appealed to Rome, but rather to his own church’s Hierarchs. He did so and received no response. He was left abandoned by his own bishop and harassed by Abp. Ireland.
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Bishop of Rome, as Primate of Catholicism, could have dealt with situation because Latin Bishops were under their jurisdiction (as Eastern Catholics, because Supreme Jurisdiction of Papacy was not questioned by Eastern Catholics back then either). Even if Toth’s hierarchs responded, chances are they would have to appeal to Rome too.
 
I see your point, but as Isaac has pointed out, Alexis Toth, as an Eastern Catholic, belonged to a non-Latin jurisdiction. I don’t think he was guilty of disobedience, too, as he was not under Ireland’s jurisdiction
 
Salibi said:
I see your point, but as Isaac has pointed out, Alexis Toth, as an Eastern Catholic, belonged to a non-Latin jurisdiction. I don’t think he was guilty of disobedience, too, as he was not under Ireland’s jurisdiction
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I would not call leaving Catholic Church as obedience to… Catholic Church. Even when he was received into Slovak Catholic Church as Priest, he promised obedience to Slovak Eastern Catholic Bishop who he left when he joined Orthodoxy.
 
I’d always wondered why Rome had not quickly intervened to solve this.
 
Same, I wish Rome had solved this and Eastern Catholics would flourish in America. I would love to live in world like that.
Salibi said:
I thought you were referring to disobedience to John Ireland.
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Well, depends. I am not sure if Eastern Catholics were under jurisdiction of Archbishop Ireland or not, but whoever Toth was under, he disobeyed him when he left Church.
 
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Let’s not be legalistic. He still left after being subjected to extreme pressure, disrespect, and possible racism from Bishop Ireland. I believe that would have diminished his guilt, no? Correct me if I’m wrong, but I remember reading that Ireland had rejected Alexis Toth’s priestly credentials from Toth’s bishop and had even expressed doubt that he and his Eastern flock were “real” Catholics.
 
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Yes it would, as it would have diminished Padre Pio’s guilt if he left Church or diminished Saint Stephen’s guilt if he ran away from his persecutors. Does not mean it’s the right thing- I’m not saying Alexis Toth had easy situation, but nevertheless it was not ideal decision that someone should take. Sometimes it’s hard and we fall, and it’s understandable as we are humans yet the fall itself can never be considered good, even if it’s forgiven.
 
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