Heart is pulling me towards Orthodoxy

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OrbisNonSufficit said:
Same could be said about Marcel Lefebvre, who stood up for traditional Catholic Mass etc.
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Like you said, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre stood up for the TLM and there are more than a few Catholics who sympathize with him. If the SSPX made him a saint and Latin Catholics chose to privately venerate him, what would I care? I wouldn’t affect me as a Byzantine Catholic, one, and two, you would be free to do as you please.
OrbisNonSufficit said:
When he was denied his traditional stances, he would schism from Rome by creating new Bishops and estabilished, wait for it, SSPX- now semi-schismatic group. Alexis Toth however, unlike SSPX who are only semi-schismatic because they set up no territorial jurisdiction, joined Church with other territorial jurisdiction therefore came to be in true full schism.
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So the SSPX is “semi-schismatic” while the Orthodox (who the Church views as “True Churches,” “Sister Churches,” and having apostolic succession therefore a valid Eucharist and sacraments are "in true full schism)? It seems as if you are defending them because they celebrate the Tridentine Mass along with observing Latin rite theology?

ZP
 
There are hundreds of replies ! Hope you get here. I would suggest you consider the middle ground, which would be one of the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. I think traditions are very strong there and you wouldn’t be making a jump in actual articles of faith AND morals.

I knew a woman in the OC and that church looks at artificial contraception as a private decision, unlike the RCC. I don’t know what other issues there may be, but I’d say “look before you leap.”
 
Trust me, I dislike SSPX for being disobedient while knowing of Papal Primacy. Orthodoxy is in far more innocent schism, but Orthodoxy has set up rival jurisdiction while SSPX has not. Their (SSPX) guilt is imo far greater, and I do not support far too traditional people who denounce NO and current Papal teachings while admitting Pope to have authority. Veneration of Lebefvre would be veneration of disobedience.
 
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Orthodoxy’s jurisdictions were in existence from before the schism. I don’t see how this is an indication of “greater guilt”.
 
It is not- as I said, greater guilt was on SSPX yet they did not schism in real sense because they respected Bishops of Church. Orthodoxy had almost no rival jurisdiction until Ukraine joined Church and they set up rival bishops, Melkites joined they set up rival bishops etc. In Americas you have jurisdiction overlapping. Thanks to Orthodox illicit jurisdiction they can hear confessions validly, while SSPX cant. It’s a bit messy and complicated and there was long thread about it, and this is kinda summarised.

Oops last post was misleading, I edited it.
 
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Actually, I wrote that in very misleading sense, fault is on my side, apologies.
 
ziapueblo said:
Many of us venerate, wait for it, Saints like Mark of Ephesus and Alexis Toth too. I’m going to get scolded for this I’m sure 😂

ZP
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What miracles are attributed to Mark of Ephesus & Alexis Toth?
 
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Not sure about Alexis Toth, but one miracle ties to Mark of Ephesus, where soon-to-be-dead girl woke up cured from illness, being totally wet. When asked what happened, she said Bishop took her to fountain and washed here there. When she asked him about his name, he said he is “Mark, Metropolitan of Ephesus”. This is one of reasons he was made Saint in Orthodoxy (as well as for opposing communion with Rome).
 
I’m not sure? Do the Orthodox have a similar “canonization” process as the Catholic Church?

ZP
 
No they do not. I don’t think the Orthodox require two miracles for someone to be canonized in their Church.
 
I’m sure some may claim they have performed many miracles, and I respect that. However, no one’s required to believe they have, and until Rome recognizes the miracles, I personally won’t believe in them.
 
Perhaps @Isaac14 can enlighten us on how saints are recognized in the Orthodox Church?
 
I found this from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America:

“ The Orthodox Church does not follow any official procedure for the “recognition” of saints. Initially the Church accepted as saints those who had suffered martyrdom for Christ. The saints are saints thanks to the grace of God, and they do not need official ecclesiastical recognition. The Christian people, reading their lives and witnessing their performance of miracles, accept and honor them as saints. St. John Chrysostom, persecuted and exiled by the civil and ecclesiastical authorities, was accepted as a saint of the Church by popular acclaim. St. Basil the Great was accepted immediately after his death as a saint of the Church by the people. Recently, in order to avoid abuses, the Ecumenical Patriarchate has issued special encyclical letters ( tomoi ) in which the Holy Synod “recognizes” or accepts the popular feelings about a saint. Such an example in our days is St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain (1955).”

ZP
 
It’s good to look at Orthodox canonizations through an Orthodox lens, not a Catholic one. That way we’d understand the Orthodox better.
 
ziapueblo said:
The Christian people, reading their lives and witnessing their performance of miracles, accept and honor them as saints. St. John Chrysostom, persecuted and exiled by the civil and ecclesiastical authorities, was accepted as a saint of the Church by popular acclaim.
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Interesting.

St John Chrysostom is venerated as a St in the West. His writing & teachings are reflected in our liturgy, theology, & spirituality.

Curious how things have changed since then.

I understand Eastern Tradition. I respect it.

However I don’t understand how an Eastern Catholic can venerate a man who turned his back on the Catholic Church.

Unlike Eastern Catholics who did not turn their backs on the Catholic Church.

I can understand the many people who made the same decision, leaving the Church & professing Orthodoxy.

Like OrbisNonSufficit, I don’t understand a person who identifies as both Catholic & Orthodox. I guess I don’t understand Catholic or Orthodox.

If nothing else I would think we should all want to be Eastern Catholic. Or we should look to Eastern Catholic as the model.

But with Eastern Catholic here espousing tradition over truth… it is difficult to see Eastern Catholic as that ideal. Reading you Eastern Catholics here, the impression I get is that your tradition, which you identify as Orthodox (capital O) is more important than truth (Catholic (big C)).

I’m no one, but my hope was to find someone who identifies themselves as Eastern Catholic. Not Roman, not Orthodox. Eastern Catholic.

You use the Orthodox calendar. Made sense to me at one time but if it’s true (& I don’t know it is) there are Saints on that calendar who’s only claim to righteousness is opposing Rome…that’s a problem.

Are there any Western Saints who’s only claim to righteousness is opposing Orthodoxy? & I don’t mean a Pope who “did nothing of note” I mean a priest or friar.

Again, I’m no one just thinking out loud working out my own salvation.
 
Justin_Mary said:
However I don’t understand how an Eastern Catholic can venerate a man who turned his back on the Catholic Church.
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Those of us that venerate post-“schism” Orthodox Saints do not venerate them because of opposition to Rome but rather because of difficult stands that they took which were based on their own faith.
Justin_Mary said:
Unlike Eastern Catholics who did not turn their backs on the Catholic Church.
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When parts of the Orthodox Church came back into communion with Rome it was often because of internal/external strife within that particular Church, political reasons or to seek protection.
Justin_Mary said:
Like OrbisNonSufficit, I don’t understand a person who identifies as both Catholic & Orthodox. I guess I don’t understand Catholic or Orthodox.
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It’s what we are called to be. Vatican II has asked the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome to return to our ancient ecclesiastical heritage, which is Orthodox, and this is not only our liturgical heritage.
Justin_Mary said:
Reading you Eastern Catholics here, the impression I get is that your tradition, which you identify as Orthodox (capital O) is more important than truth (Catholic (big C)).
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I can only speak for myself here. To many people believe that Catholic is synonymous with Roman Catholic. We are not Roman Catholics with a different liturgy. We are truly Eastern in every respect. I have seen Roman Catholics visit our parish and leave in the middle of Divine Liturgy or argue with our priest because we were not “Catholic” and our parish even has some latinizations.
Justin_Mary said:
Are there any Western Saints who’s only claim to righteousness is opposing Orthodoxy?
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There may be but is the opposite ally true. There are many Orthodox who have opposed Rome and are not saints. That is not what makes someone a saint in the Orthodox Church.

I have some Orthodox friends that have devotions to western saints. Their priest makes no fuss about it.

ZP
 
With all due respect, Justin, I think you have an idea of Eastern Catholicism that does not exist. Eastern Catholics are Orthodox who returned to communion with Rome. Before the schism, if you were to travel the East, you would find churches that are very much like the Orthodox. Because they are Orthodox. Or should I say Eastern, since using Orthodox here is problematic.
 
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