Heartbroken by divorce

[Eliza10]

I don’t think that she even implied that one should not get an attorney if papers are being served. I think she was saying that she was being told to hire a shark and “GET HIM”, make him pay. Get rid of him and find someone else, someone better. This is advice that many give freely. …

Well, I didn’t get any advice like that. I think people need to be set straight immediately if they suggest things like that. Then they’ll maybe think next time before they give ridiculous or immoral suggesitons to you.

…A good lawyer isn’t a shark lawyer…

Yes, thats what I had, a good lawyer. Not a shark.

I wish I had sole custody ike you. We have joint so there is always the threat of residence change someday. It forces me to rely on Jesus though. My lawyer said in our state, sole is not given unless there is drugs or sexual abuse. It has to be really provably very dangerous for the child before they award sole.

If the person repents at the moment of death, that person is forgiven. If that person obstinately refuses to repent before death, he is in God’s hands…

I agree. And God only knows, there may be a moment of mercy, a chance to repent, after death for those who could not repent on earth, for reasons only He understands. But at SOME point there is a cutoff; we must repent. In ordinary circumstances, surely thats before the moment of death.

It was this thinking that made me so very angry in the beginning. I wanted my spouse struck dead on some days. …Then I got a good dose of His Mercy. And I saw how very wrong I was… I must forgive, even if never asked, if I want to be forgiven…
I now plead “Mercy” when I pray for my spouse, because I do not want the father of my children to end up in Hell.

I think the people who MOST need our forgiveness are the ones who never ask. They need the most mercy. And we are the ones who most need to give it.

I had trouble asking from the heart for my husband’s salvation when we were in the thick of things. I told a priest about my reluctant heart in Confession, and he said it was okay, and to pray 3 Hail Mary’s for him every day. So I do. I have added to that asking Our Blessed Mother to be the one to pray for him with Her heart of infathomable mercy, instead of my heart, too weak. So I give my ex-husband to her, and then I focus on her, and God’s work in her, in my prayers, having handed my ex over to her once again. I can’t think of a better gift I could give him. I think maybe thats why I got stuck with him. So I could pray for him.

…bp2.blogger.com/_NJd0pYUa1U0/RtLPX87_qqI/AAAAAAAABsk/4473AAXfhAs/s400/0827+Saint+Monica+praying-thumb.jpg

 

[Link21]

I just want to say I was married outside the church. It was considered civil with a judge but I don’t consider it legal because God wasn’t there. Only the State of Iowa and man made laws. Latter on we got married in the church which I consider the actual marriage. Why I would have gotten married in the church the first time but my wife was from Russia and we had immigration issues to face. Plus you have to wait 6 months to get married in the Catholic church. Anyway, I had known this girl since the age of 17 and now i’m 24 and happily married to her. I’ve been married for two years.
Plus it’s a better ceremony to be married in the church than by some judge with a few of your relatives. But to be married by the State or by the Church. The sacrement is more valid because you can feel God’s presence. The church is said to exist to the end of times. As for Governments, they change and fall.
Now, I can understand some acceptions to get married civilly but you should be married in the church.

 

[marietta]

cecelia97:

I never assumed that the Church does not recognize as valid any marriage which has taken place outside of the Catholic Church. In my opinion, that, too, is none of the Church’s business.

My question strictly applies to (lapsed) Catholic marriages. If a man and woman, both lapsed Catholics, both alcoholics, both drug addicts, make a deliberate decision to get married by a JP and not be married in the Church, how is this a valid/invalid marriage in the eyes of the Church? The marriage itself took place two years after co-habitation, during which time the man was civilly married to another woman. If God Himself does not oversee and bless this marriage, how in the world does a “tribunal” assume authority to deem it valid or invalid? The Church can’t have it both ways.

If the Church does not “lay blame on who did what wrong”, then what is the purpose of the “tribunal”? This is an evaluation of some sort. What are the pass/fail criteria?

Just curious,

marietta

 

[trichocereus]

Hi there all!

Here’s a prayer you can use for the benefiction of your souls…

PRAYER TO THE HOLY SPIRIT
(pray for 3 days or 3 hours straight)

Holy Spirit, You who make me see everything and showed me the way to reach my ideals, You who gave me the divine gift to forgive and forget the wrong that is done to me and You who are in all instances of my life with me, I want to thank You for everything and confirm once more that I never want to be separated from You no matter how great the material desire may be. I want to be with You and my loved ones in Your perpetual glory. Amen
In Jesus Christ, your Son’s name, I ask that you grant me (State your specific request or intention here!)
While making the request, you must promise either:
(a) To publish this prayer or
(b) To circulate the favor

 

[Eliza10]

Marietta,
Maybe it would be a good idea to start a thread on this. One with an eye-catching title, like, 'Why should I have to have an annullment?". I think you’ll get a lot of good info from those who’ve been there. I hesitate to comment not only because I don’t want to distract from the topic at hand but also because I haven’t been through the process.

I was suspicious of the process once too. But I know that the Church is our loving and wise mother. I think that the process will probably confirm that for you. Thats what people say who have been through it. Also, I think the reason why you would have to have one before remarrying in the Church is because the Chruch has to definatively prove that you are not already in a valid marriage. The Church can’t be involved in polygamy. The things you say indicate its not valid (but I’m not an expert). The process is the formal act of investigating that.

It kind of like you were a country kid who had been driving since he was 12. Now he is 18, and wonders why he should have to get a license when obviously he know how to drive better than most of the peope on the road. Yes, he can drive, but he still has to take the test to prove it. After that, no one can question his ability to drive.

…http://oneyearbibleimages.com/ezekiel_rafaelo.jpg

 

[WICatholic]

WICatholic:

Wow! Come on down from your chair, drop the big stick and consider that all I was doing was asking a question.

I do think it’s absolutely absurd that the Church feels a responsibility to investigate failed marriages and grade them on some arbitrary scale. What if the bride and groom were active drug addicts or active alcoholics? Would you say they were able to make a genuine commitment to each other when they had not been sober in many years? I don’t see how the Church’s yardstick of merit could possibly compare such a marriage to one in which both parties were sober, had active spiritual lives, common values, etc., and yet the union deteriorated in spite of their efforts, counseling included.

I don’t have a doubt that God is the last house on the block as far as authority is concerned here. But I cannot fathom how a group of celibate men, no matter what their intentions, can determine the sanctity or scurrility of any given marriage. What would they be basing their judgment on? His story? Her story? Or the truth? And what if no one involved even remembers the truth?

I have heard you. I just don’t agree with you.

marietta

he Archdiocese of Denver has the answer to your question, esp about two people married outside the Church by a justice of the Peace in the red section of my post.

.

 

[WICatholic]

We are both arguing with people who are not even on this thread! I never said anything about fantasy, or God intending us to be happy and not spend 50 years alone. I’m divorced and “annuled” and I seriously HOPE to spend 50 years alone because I have no plans to remarry for sure! So I think you’re projecting a bit.

And yes, I may also be projecting onto you all the threads I’ve read about “people who apply for annulments are adulterers and post-V2 liberals”, which you never said, but I assumed you were implying because we hear it on CAF so often.

As for forgiveness, I think we’re both coming at the same view of it from different directions.

Shake?

Shake. I don’t remember the specific authors of the two quotes used about fantasy world and enabling today.
(and just as an aside, those words are not yours, but ones we who choose to live our vows hear all the time from many sources).

One of my closest friends is also very legitimately divorced and ‘annuled’ and will never marry again. She is the one I visited so often when I could afford to go to the country she now works in (for a Bishop) and did dental work for the girls in two orphanages (for a few years, twice a year, and I really miss those girls). One of my sisters is as well. There are valid reasons.

God bless!

 

[Eliza10]

If you can find a Catholic ministry that teaches indissolubility here in the US, I can guarantee you that there will be people who go. I have many friends who are not Catholic that are standing for their marriage, but I also know many Catholics who cannot find that support in parish, Diocese, the US. There IS a group in Italy, under the direction of the Bishop. But that isn’t very helpful in the here and now.

I have, in the past, been supported most strongly by my non-Catholic friends, to be honest. .

I don’t know about Catholic ministries, but we all have the teaching of the Church, and She teaches the indissolubility of the marriage union.

It hard to find support when you are not in a marriage for whatever reason. I have not found a support group in the Church (only support), but not the reasons you are not in one, from what I surmiss. It seems to me that you are taking a stand against the Church as far as nullities being granted, and seek likeminded supporters. Correct me if I am wrong.

Others may not be protesting the Church’s wisdom on marriage tribunals, but may choose not to remarry for other reasons, like God’s calling in their life, or what’s best for the children. These people need support, too, and it seems there are many people in the Church who can support each other for their various reasons. If you are not finding a particular support group particularly for those who protest the church’s ruling on invalid marraiges (if that is what you are looking for), then maybe there is a reason for that.

There *are *problems in our Church but God has not abandonned it. He gives you what you need. He knows what you need.

Maybe your non-Catholic friends need your Catholic support more than you need theirs. You have the fullnes of truth, they don’t.

If you are in fact taking a stand against the Church’s rulings on marriage validity, I think you have to be careful about pride, coming from thinking that your own wisdom and interpretations of scripture are superior to the Magisterium of the Church. As someone who was a practising Evangelical for so many years, I attest that there is a pride that comes with private scripture interpretaion and being your own private “magisterium”.

If, instead, you are standing for the indissoluability of valid marraiges, including your own, because you believe it to be valid, then you are simply being Catholic - nothing more, nothing less.

But the question I originally posed to you, you haven’t answered - and I am still curious. I am referring to the question I put to you in Post#93, page 7 of this thread. I was responding to of Dulcissima’s who was responding to you. She wrote: "…There is all of the difference in the world between that and standing for a marriage that is valid but which one party left."

And I said, “* Yes. I don’t get the idea that WICatholic sees the difference?”*

(I am sorry I did not then make a separtate post addressed just to you when I asked you. I didn’t think that it might be offending. I’m sorry.)

I am still wondering, are you against both invalid marriages where one party left, AND valid marriages that one party left? And, do you see a difference?

That said, my question to you is off-topic. If you want to answer by starting a new thread on the topic, I’d be happy to follow you there.

 

[Eliza10]

… I don’t remember the specific authors of the two quotes used about fantasy world and enabling today. …

Dulcissima asked Norcal (the OP) if it might be possible that she might be living a fantasy because of some of her choices. I said that I had the same thoughts. Meaning: I agree, she should question herself on this. I stated further that the non-denom organization she is turning to is Evangelcial Protestant and has untruths mixed with truth, and I don’t reccommend it as a support group for that reason. She is Catholic and complete wisdom is available in the Catholic Church.

Dulcissima also talked about enabling, and I did too. I think treating her husband to home-baked dinner in her home on a weekly basis (or even at all) when he has left the marraige and is living in an adulterous relationship with another woman - with whom he is raising a baby - is good reason to suggest she is enabling him to keep on with his sin. Its not a wise move, IMO*. It protects him from any normal consequences of sin. It seems to be seriously lacking boundaries. Seriously. If she wants them all to get together with their children, then straying hubby should treat them all to dinner in a neutral place, like a restaurant. Seriously. Straying hubby just might be gloating to himself or others that he has two women; that his ex makes him a nice dinner in her home each week. He might not see it as his wife being nice, but his wife being stupid, or him making a conquest with his charm.

*Some might do this to make the other women jealous (I’m not saying Norcal is doing this). This would very likely make the other woman jealous, since she has a baby with the husband and feels he is her rightful claim. But uncharitable motives, even when understandable, can’t be expected to lead to good.]

On Gregory Popcaks show on Ava Maria Radio today, he quoted St. Gregory the Great who spoke on people that are too nice, and too quiet, who ought to speak up and protest when their toes are stepped on, for the good of the soul of the other person. It made me think of Norcal.

Greg and Lisa Popcak could be asked by Norcal for their wisdom about her situation on their radio program. I think you can email questions. She would get truly wise, truly Catholic advice.

…(and just as an aside, those words are not yours, but ones we who choose to live our vows hear all the time from many sources)…

I hope you don’t mind my asking, but have you ever taken these repeated suggestions and your concerns about them to a priest somewhere in youir vicinity who is reputed to be good and holy, and told him your particular situation, and thoughtfully considered his counsel?

WICatholic, I think you and I have a lot in common except for what I perceive in your thinking (correct me if I have jumped to a wrong conclusion), which is that there is something inherently wrong with the Marriage Tribunal.

That is a judgement I personally wouldn’t make until I have gone through the actual process. If then I felt something was inherently wrong with it, based on that experience, I would address my concerns with a respected and holy Priest and see what he had to say on the subject.

But perhaps you have already done this. And we may be veering off-topic, so as I said above, if you wanted to start another thread on this subject, I would follow you there.

…http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/3/35/300px-Botticelli_Madonna.jpg

 

[stadre]

Ladies,

This thread has been a God-send to me at this time. I found out today that my husband has contacted a lawyer seeking separation. He didn’t tell me, he waited for me to see it on the credit card. When I asked him, he told me that much (about the lawyer) but lied about many other things.

It is so sad, because he allowed himself to change so much during this deployment. He is due home this weekend. I am watching my daughter anticipate this happy event and it is like a scene in slow motion. I am watching this car driving towards her and it is going to hit, but I can’t stop it. Please pray for us and our safety.

 

[dulcissima]

I am so sorry, St Andre. My dad was in the Navy, and I know how those homecomings are. I can’t imagine how you are feeling right now. I’ve found the best thing is to just go to adoration and let the tears come out.

Keeping you in my prayers.

 

[Eliza10]

Ladies,

This thread has been a God-send to me at this time. I found out today that my husband has contacted a lawyer seeking separation. He didn’t tell me, he waited for me to see it on the credit card. When I asked him, he told me that much (about the lawyer) but lied about many other things.

It is so sad, because he allowed himself to change so much during this deployment. He is due home this weekend. I am watching my daughter anticipate this happy event and it is like a scene in slow motion. I am watching this car driving towards her and it is going to hit, but I can’t stop it. Please pray for us and our safety.

I’m so sorry, too, Stadre. I will pray for you and for you to have peace. And wisdom.

You realize your daughter doens’t have to know now, right? You have time to get yourself together before she has to know. It takes time to divorce, if thats what must happen. Meanwhile she can have a happy homecoming. If this is all inevitable, and you end up having to tell her, you can shroud the event in prayer.

I really increased my read-aloud with my son during the protected divorce. We read all the Chronicles of Narnia. Also King Arthur, Robin Hood, several treasuries, more. Its a great way to escape together in another world, to have some special “we time” with your daughter. Read-aloud helps listening comprehension so much, and my son’s is superior now. (we still read aloud a lot, too). You can read all through high school (my inspiration was The Read Aloud Handbook by Jim Trelease. He has one for highschoolers too). And I didn’t always read well, either, as I was distracted. Sometimes I didn’t know what I just read, but my son would. Read aloud let me spend time intereacting postively with my son when I was completely overwhelmed or upset about adult matters. Other times, I worked on improving my reading aloud and focus.

Also at that time, perhaps because of sensing my anxiety, and perhaps feeling it was rejection, he developed an inability to fall asleep alone at night. I’d lay with him hoping he’d fall asleep quickly since I could not relax and wanted to escape to be alone with my thoughts, and I guess he sensed this. So he’d lie there more and more awakened, more and more anxious if I wanted to leave him. So, I decided to “bore” him to sleep by praying my rosary outloud. It must have been my Guardian Angel’s idea. It worked every time, and calmed me down, too.

I will remember you in my prayers, Stadre.

http://achristiancounselor.com/hug1.jpg

 

[cecilia97]

Marietta,
Maybe it would be a good idea to start a thread on this. One with an eye-catching title, like, 'Why should I have to have an annullment?". I think you’ll get a lot of good info from those who’ve been there. I hesitate to comment not only because I don’t want to distract from the topic at hand but also because I haven’t been through the process.

I was suspicious of the process once too. But I know that the Church is our loving and wise mother. I think that the process will probably confirm that for you. Thats what people say who have been through it. Also, I think the reason why you would have to have one before remarrying in the Church is because the Chruch has to definatively prove that you are not already in a valid marriage. The Church can’t be involved in polygamy. The things you say indicate its not valid (but I’m not an expert). The process is the formal act of investigating that.

It kind of like you were a country kid who had been driving since he was 12. Now he is 18, and wonders why he should have to get a license when obviously he know how to drive better than most of the peope on the road. Yes, he can drive, but he still has to take the test to prove it. After that, no one can question his ability to drive.

…http://oneyearbibleimages.com/ezekiel_rafaelo.jpg

You’re right on the money, Eliza. There are tons of threads on annulments, and I and many other would love to answer marietta’s questions there on a new one. I have been through the nullity petition process and know a little something. I’m not a canon lawyer, but I’m easier to talk to…har! Marietta, please PM me if you really want info about the nullity process. Sadly, the only way to really understand it is to participate in it.

Remeber too, that the Church never makes any statement about the validity of a marriage until someone ASKS it’s opinion. It has the power to look into marriages by virtue of the power of the keys that Christ gave to Peter.

 

[rinnie]

I am so sorry i can only imagine your pain, but please just take one day at a time, concentrate on that baby. And I will pray that God will keep you in his arms and protect you through this. Who knows maybe he will come to his senses and regret what he has done. But for now all you need to do is take care of yourself and that beautiful baby. Again I am so sorry this must be horrible for you. Also is you feel you cant take much more please go see you Dr, he may be able to also suggest some things to help. But please remember better days are ahead, even though it may not seem that way right now.

 

[NorCal73]

Dulcissima asked Norcal (the OP) if it might be possible that she might be living a fantasy because of some of her choices. I said that I had the same thoughts. Meaning: I agree, she should question herself on this. I stated further that the non-denom organization she is turning to is Evangelcial Protestant and has untruths mixed with truth, and I don’t reccommend it as a support group for that reason. She is Catholic and complete wisdom is available in the Catholic Church.

Dulcissima also talked about enabling, and I did too. I think treating her husband to home-baked dinner in her home on a weekly basis (or even at all) when he has left the marraige and is living in an adulterous relationship with another woman - with whom he is raising a baby - is good reason to suggest she is enabling him to keep on with his sin. Its not a wise move, IMO*. It protects him from any normal consequences of sin. It seems to be seriously lacking boundaries. Seriously. If she wants them all to get together with their children, then straying hubby should treat them all to dinner in a neutral place, like a restaurant. Seriously. Straying hubby just might be gloating to himself or others that he has two women; that his ex makes him a nice dinner in her home each week. He might not see it as his wife being nice, but his wife being stupid, or him making a conquest with his charm.

*Some might do this to make the other women jealous (I’m not saying Norcal is doing this). This would very likely make the other woman jealous, since she has a baby with the husband and feels he is her rightful claim. But uncharitable motives, even when understandable, can’t be expected to lead to good.]

On Gregory Popcaks show on Ava Maria Radio today, he quoted St. Gregory the Great who spoke on people that are too nice, and too quiet, who ought to speak up and protest when their toes are stepped on, for the good of the soul of the other person. It made me think of Norcal.

Greg and Lisa Popcak could be asked by Norcal for their wisdom about her situation on their radio program. I think you can email questions. She would get truly wise, truly Catholic advice.

I hope you don’t mind my asking, but have you ever taken these repeated suggestions and your concerns about them to a priest somewhere in youir vicinity who is reputed to be good and holy, and told him your particular situation, and thoughtfully considered his counsel?

WICatholic, I think you and I have a lot in common except for what I perceive in your thinking (correct me if I have jumped to a wrong conclusion), which is that there is something inherently wrong with the Marriage Tribunal.

That is a judgement I personally wouldn’t make until I have gone through the actual process. If then I felt something was inherently wrong with it, based on that experience, I would address my concerns with a respected and holy Priest and see what he had to say on the subject.

But perhaps you have already done this. And we may be veering off-topic, so as I said above, if you wanted to start another thread on this subject, I would follow you there.

…http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en-commons/thumb/3/35/300px-Botticelli_Madonna.jpg

Eliza10, I just wanted to correct you on this post. Dulcissima did not ask me if she thought I was living in a fantasy world. She was asking Restore this question from Restore’s post #84. I can see how things can get so confusing with this thread being pretty long now, but I am not enabling my husband to continue in his sin which he clearly does not want to stop doing. Right now, all my prayers are focused on my baby, and to be able to keep him with me and raise him to be a good person. Please continue to pray for me too.

 

[stadre]

Eliza10, I just wanted to correct you on this post. Dulcissima did not ask me if she thought I was living in a fantasy world. She was asking Restore this question from Restore’s post #84. I can see how things can get so confusing with this thread being pretty long now, but I am not enabling my husband to continue in his sin which he clearly does not want to stop doing. Right now, all my prayers are focused on my baby, and to be able to keep him with me and raise him to be a good person. Please continue to pray for me too.

NorCal, You are in my prayers as I ask you to pray for me as well. I wish we didn’t have to go through this, but I do know that God will get us through and we will be happy again when we get to the other side. My daughter needs me just as your son needs you. I am thankful that we have them to help us stay afloat. When I feel like despairing, I remind myself that I need to stay strong for her. I also know that I feel God’s love coming from so many directions. It hurts to know that isn’t coming from the one person it should be (my husband) but I do feel it.

 

[NorCal73]

stadre, you and your daughter are in my prayers.

 

[Eliza10]

Eliza10, I just wanted to correct you on this post. Dulcissima did not ask me if she thought I was living in a fantasy world. She was asking Restore this question from Restore’s post #84… I can see how things can get so confusing with this thread being pretty long now, but I am not enabling my husband to continue in his sin which he clearly does not want to stop doing. Right now, all my prayers are focused on my baby, and to be able to keep him with me and raise him to be a good person. Please continue to pray for me too.

Sorry Norcal! I did get that mixed up! Yes, it was Restore treating her straying husband to weekly dinner* And it was Restore who is relying on a Non-denom Protestant ministry to spiritual advice, at the link she gave here on this thread.

Sorry we got so far off he topic you opened. Yes, I will pray for you Norcal. I will remember you especially at every Mass when I ask Our Blessed Mother to help my son and help me be a mother. Also for Stadre. Also Restore. I have asked my Guradian Angel to help me not forget.

*And while I am on the topic, I will say another thought I had - and that is that Restore’s actions can cause scandal. Others on the outside will see her as having tolerance and/or aceptance for his behavior. They will think this, and say this to others, and people being the way they are, no one will probably go to her to get the real story on her motives. So the actions will stand exactly how they look to others, and that is the scandal.

 

[cecilia97]

Sorry Norcal! I did get that mixed up! Yes, it was Restore treating her straying husband to weekly dinner* And it was Restore who is relying on a Non-denom Protestant ministry to spiritual advice, at the link she gave here on this thread.

Sorry we got so far off he topic you opened. Yes, I will pray for you Norcal. I will remember you especially at every Mass when I ask Our Blessed Mother to help my son and help me be a mother. Also for Stadre. Also Restore. I have asked my Guradian Angel to help me not forget.

*And while I am on the topic, I will say another thought I had - and that is that Restore’s actions can cause scandal. Others on the outside will see her as having tolerance and/or aceptance for his behavior. They will think this, and say this to others, and people being the way they are, no one will probably go to her to get the real story on her motives. So the actions will stand exactly how they look to others, and that is the scandal.

While I agree that there’s the possibility for scandal, and Restore may be participating, it ultimately all stems back to her husband’s infidelity…the ultimate scandal. It sounds like a very difficult and confusing situation.

Somehow, it seems much easier for me to pray for my ex than to envision cooking for him!

 

[Eliza10]

While I agree that there’s the possibility for scandal, and Restore may be participating, it ultimately all stems back to her husband’s infidelity…the ultimate scandal. It sounds like a very difficult and confusing situation.

Somehow, it seems much easier for me to pray for my ex than to envision cooking for him!

Thanks for the correction Cecelia. Yes, her husband infideity is the real scandal. Its only my opinion that cooking for him in her home is not wise, and that he and others will take it as accomodating.