Heaven and hell according to the East

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I came across this translation of Elder Photios of Mysia, and it piqued my interest:

“Not as erroneously as many of you under the influence of Frankish (Western) heresies believe, that Paradise is some physical place in the skies, or that Hell is beneath our feet with demons dancing around with cauldrons of boiling oil torturing the evil. Heaven and Hell are not physical places, but states of existence before the presence of the All-Merciful Holy Trinity. The Scriptures and our Church Fathers utilised poetic license to express these realities to the laity. The anthropomorphical and physical references express symbolisms, deeper meanings, eternal realities that we have a perception of, but do not know exhaustively since they ultimately remain as mysteries within God. Our Church Fathers seeking to discern the Faith as best they could, according to the will of Divine Grace, quantified and qualified what we as humans can safely know with regards to salvation.” (from modeoflife.org/category/patristic-texts-works-teachings/elder-photios-of-mysia/)

I was always under the impression that heaven and hell are real places and that we’ll have resurrected (and glorified) bodies, if we live a worthy life.

Is this like an instance of Beatific Vision/Theosis, where the words and descriptions are different but are similar “concepts”? Is human language just not sufficient to accurately describe heaven/hell?
 
EIF5A said:
I came across this translation of Elder Photios of Mysia, and it piqued my interest:

“Not as erroneously as many of you under the influence of Frankish (Western) heresies believe, that Paradise is some physical place in the skies, or that Hell is beneath our feet with demons dancing around with cauldrons of boiling oil torturing the evil. Heaven and Hell are not physical places, but states of existence before the presence of the All-Merciful Holy Trinity. The Scriptures and our Church Fathers utilised poetic license to express these realities to the laity. The anthropomorphical and physical references express symbolisms, deeper meanings, eternal realities that we have a perception of, but do not know exhaustively since they ultimately remain as mysteries within God. Our Church Fathers seeking to discern the Faith as best they could, according to the will of Divine Grace, quantified and qualified what we as humans can safely know with regards to salvation.” (from modeoflife.org/category/patristic-texts-works-teachings/elder-photios-of-mysia/)

I was always under the impression that heaven and hell are real places and that we’ll have resurrected (and glorified) bodies, if we live a worthy life.

Is this like an instance of Beatific Vision/Theosis, where the words and descriptions are different but are similar “concepts”? Is human language just not sufficient to accurately describe heaven/hell?
Click to expand...
There is no single Orthodox teaching on heaven and hell as place.

Photius died in 893 A.D, so that comment was at the point where the east and west were experiencing division.

Some people believe that the Catholic Church changed the teaching after Vatican II. Interesting theory, because in the BALTIMORE CATECHISM #3 (1891) we read:Q. 1379. What is Hell?
A. Hell is a state to which the wicked are condemned, and in which they are deprived of the sight of God for all eternity, and are in dreadful torments.

Q. 1395. What is Heaven?
A. Heaven is the state of everlasting life in which we see God face to face, are made like unto Him in glory, and enjoy eternal happiness.
 
The Eastern view?

Who knows? Who cares? It’s a mystery!

Just aim for heaven because hell is going to painful!
 
EIF5A said:
I came across this translation of Elder Photios of Mysia, and it piqued my interest:

“Not as erroneously as many of you under the influence of Frankish (Western) heresies believe, that Paradise is some physical place in the skies, or that Hell is beneath our feet with demons dancing around with cauldrons of boiling oil torturing the evil. Heaven and Hell are not physical places, but states of existence before the presence of the All-Merciful Holy Trinity. The Scriptures and our Church Fathers utilised poetic license to express these realities to the laity. The anthropomorphical and physical references express symbolisms, deeper meanings, eternal realities that we have a perception of, but do not know exhaustively since they ultimately remain as mysteries within God. Our Church Fathers seeking to discern the Faith as best they could, according to the will of Divine Grace, quantified and qualified what we as humans can safely know with regards to salvation.” (from modeoflife.org/category/patristic-texts-works-teachings/elder-photios-of-mysia/)
**
I was always under the impression that heaven and hell are real places and that we’ll have resurrected (and glorified) bodies, if we live a worthy life.

Is this like an instance of Beatific Vision/Theosis, where the words and descriptions are different but are similar “concepts”? Is human language just not sufficient to accurately describe heaven/hell?**
Click to expand...
It isn’t sufficient, that is true.

However, that we will indeed receive resurrectional bodies (spiritual body; pneumatikon soma) is an article of faith. It is not a matter of interpretation.

Because a body needs “someplace” to move around in, there are places connected with Heaven and Hell. But it is not the places that define either; to that extent, Heaven and Hell can indeed be described as states.

ICXC NIKA
 
We don’t really ponder what heaven or hell will be like. We just try to run the race and be with God in the end. That’s basically it.

This Elder Photios is a real card. “We don’t like the pontificating of the Westerns, so I’ll just pontificate to the Westerns also.”:rolleyes:

That’s not really the Eastern or Oriental way of doing things. Don’t be misled to think that this Elder Photios is indicating that there is some sort of dogma or set doctrine on the matter from the Eastern (or Oriental) pov.

However, his own pontificating should shed some light on why the Western Church historically had defined more things than their Oriental or Eastern counterparts. It’s simply that Western society and culture inspired free thinking moreso than the societies and cultures wherein the other Christian Traditions were situated. Questions arose that really never came up in the Eastern or Oriental setting. Naturally, the Church in the West had to respond, to make sure this free thinking did not lead to heterodox innovations. They had to meet the possible innovators on their own ground. Unlike some of my fellow non-Latins, I find it comforting that the Western Church took the time to address the issues that arose in their lands.

I recall that the Eastern Orthodox Council of Jerusalem adopted a lot of the Western Church’s arguments against the Protestants that came to EO shores. Many modern EO ciriticize this Council or being “infected” with Western ideas, which, imo, is silly. Protestants were Westerns trying to bring their errors into Orthodox lands. They were bringing up matters that never dawned on the EO. But the Orthodox hierarchs were wise enough to meet the Protestants on their own terms - that those terms had to be expressed in Western modes of thought is certainly no failing of those hierarchs. The failing is in the modern EO who criticize them.

Blessings
EIF5A said:
I came across this translation of Elder Photios of Mysia, and it piqued my interest:

“Not as erroneously as many of you under the influence of Frankish (Western) heresies believe, that Paradise is some physical place in the skies, or that Hell is beneath our feet with demons dancing around with cauldrons of boiling oil torturing the evil. Heaven and Hell are not physical places, but states of existence before the presence of the All-Merciful Holy Trinity. The Scriptures and our Church Fathers utilised poetic license to express these realities to the laity. The anthropomorphical and physical references express symbolisms, deeper meanings, eternal realities that we have a perception of, but do not know exhaustively since they ultimately remain as mysteries within God. Our Church Fathers seeking to discern the Faith as best they could, according to the will of Divine Grace, quantified and qualified what we as humans can safely know with regards to salvation.” (from modeoflife.org/category/patristic-texts-works-teachings/elder-photios-of-mysia/)

I was always under the impression that heaven and hell are real places and that we’ll have resurrected (and glorified) bodies, if we live a worthy life.

Is this like an instance of Beatific Vision/Theosis, where the words and descriptions are different but are similar “concepts”? Is human language just not sufficient to accurately describe heaven/hell?
Click to expand...
 
mardukm said:
We don’t really ponder what heaven or hell will be like. We just try to run the race and be with God in the end. That’s basically it.

This Elder Photios is a real card. “We don’t like the pontificating of the Westerns, so I’ll just pontificate to the Westerns also.”:rolleyes:

That’s not really the Eastern or Oriental way of doing things. Don’t be misled to think that this Elder Photios is indicating that there is some sort of dogma or set doctrine on the matter from the Eastern (or Oriental) pov.

However, his own pontificating should shed some light on why the Western Church historically had defined more things than their Oriental or Eastern counterparts. It’s simply that Western society and culture inspired free thinking moreso than the societies and cultures wherein the other Christian Traditions were situated. Questions arose that really never came up in the Eastern or Oriental setting. Naturally, the Church in the West had to respond, to make sure this free thinking did not lead to heterodox innovations. They had to meet the possible innovators on their own ground. Unlike some of my fellow non-Latins, I find it comforting that the Western Church took the time to address the issues that arose in their lands.

I recall that the Eastern Orthodox Council of Jerusalem adopted a lot of the Western Church’s arguments against the Protestants that came to EO shores. Many modern EO ciriticize this Council or being “infected” with Western ideas, which, imo, is silly. Protestants were Westerns trying to bring their errors into Orthodox lands. They were bringing up matters that never dawned on the EO. But the Orthodox hierarchs were wise enough to meet the Protestants on their own terms - that those terms had to be expressed in Western modes of thought is certainly no failing of those hierarchs. The failing is in the modern EO who criticize them.

Blessings
Click to expand...
Excellent answer Mardukm, I always find your posts very enlightening.
 
EIF5A said:
I came across this translation of Elder Photios of Mysia, and it piqued my interest:

“Not as erroneously as many of you under the influence of Frankish (Western) heresies believe, that Paradise is some physical place in the skies, or that Hell is beneath our feet with demons dancing around with cauldrons of boiling oil torturing the evil. Heaven and Hell are not physical places, but states of existence before the presence of the All-Merciful Holy Trinity. The Scriptures and our Church Fathers utilised poetic license to express these realities to the laity. The anthropomorphical and physical references express symbolisms, deeper meanings, eternal realities that we have a perception of, but do not know exhaustively since they ultimately remain as mysteries within God. Our Church Fathers seeking to discern the Faith as best they could, according to the will of Divine Grace, quantified and qualified what we as humans can safely know with regards to salvation.” (from modeoflife.org/category/patristic-texts-works-teachings/elder-photios-of-mysia/)

I was always under the impression that heaven and hell are real places and that we’ll have resurrected (and glorified) bodies, if we live a worthy life.

Is this like an instance of Beatific Vision/Theosis, where the words and descriptions are different but are similar “concepts”? Is human language just not sufficient to accurately describe heaven/hell?
Click to expand...
The bodily ascension of Jesus Christ, and the bodily assumption of Mary show us that Heaven is among other things a physical place. Not to mention the fact that in the creed we say that we believe in the resurrection of the body.
 
domNoah said:
The bodily ascension of Jesus Christ, and the bodily assumption of Mary show us that Heaven is among other things a physical place. Not to mention the fact that in the creed we say that we believe in the resurrection of the body.
Click to expand...
We do profess the resurrection of the body. However, no sound theologian would say that means heaven or the resurrection is physical in the sense that we experience it now. Jesus seemed to simply appear after His resurrection and, while He had a physical reality (i.e. such that Thomas should place his finger in His wounds), He was not limited to it. So while one of the resurrected body’s attributes might be physical, that is certainly not its exclusive quality as it is now.
 
MorEphrem said:
We do profess the resurrection of the body. However, no sound theologian would say that means heaven or the resurrection is physical in the sense that we experience it now. Jesus seemed to simply appear after His resurrection and, while He had a physical reality (i.e. such that Thomas should place his finger in His wounds), He was not limited to it. So while one of the resurrected body’s attributes might be physical, that is certainly not its exclusive quality as it is now.
Click to expand...
Not exclusive, but definitely intrinsic.

While it’s life functions and even material will have altered for its new life, there will be no doubt that your pneumatikon soma, will be a visible, recognizable, solid HUMAN BODY.

ICXC NIKA !
 
mardukm said:
We don’t really ponder what heaven or hell will be like. We just try to run the race and be with God in the end. That’s basically it.

This Elder Photios is a real card. “We don’t like the pontificating of the Westerns, so I’ll just pontificate to the Westerns also.”:rolleyes:

That’s not really the Eastern or Oriental way of doing things. Don’t be misled to think that this Elder Photios is indicating that there is some sort of dogma or set doctrine on the matter from the Eastern (or Oriental) pov.

However, his own pontificating should shed some light on why the Western Church historically had defined more things than their Oriental or Eastern counterparts. It’s simply that Western society and culture inspired free thinking moreso than the societies and cultures wherein the other Christian Traditions were situated. Questions arose that really never came up in the Eastern or Oriental setting. Naturally, the Church in the West had to respond, to make sure this free thinking did not lead to heterodox innovations. They had to meet the possible innovators on their own ground. Unlike some of my fellow non-Latins, I find it comforting that the Western Church took the time to address the issues that arose in their lands.

I recall that the Eastern Orthodox Council of Jerusalem adopted a lot of the Western Church’s arguments against the Protestants that came to EO shores. Many modern EO ciriticize this Council or being “infected” with Western ideas, which, imo, is silly. Protestants were Westerns trying to bring their errors into Orthodox lands. They were bringing up matters that never dawned on the EO. But the Orthodox hierarchs were wise enough to meet the Protestants on their own terms - that those terms had to be expressed in Western modes of thought is certainly no failing of those hierarchs. The failing is in the modern EO who criticize them.

Blessings
Click to expand...
Excellent explanation Mardukm. 👍

Thanks for sharing.
 
GEddie said:
Not exclusive, but definitely intrinsic.

While it’s life functions and even material will have altered for its new life, there will be no doubt that your pneumatikon soma, will be a visible, recognizable, solid HUMAN BODY.

ICXC NIKA !
Click to expand...
Amen. Just as the boundaries of physical don’t negate heaven or hell being real or for that matter a place.
 
If Heaven and Hell are not physical why does Scripture describe them as such ?
Code: 
John 14:2 In my Father's house there are many mansions ...

 or Revelation 21 where we find an angel taking physical measurement of the city and describing what the foundation and city walls were made of.
 
Heaven and Hell are places where matter is present.

The nature of our physical existence will be more glorious than our present imaginations can conceive. We have hints in this life from our mystics, such as those who could bilocate their physical person in multiple locations. Or, if we consider our Lord, who is now present in thousands upon thousands of sanctuaries. This gives us a taste of how in Heaven, in as much as we will be physical, we may also be ambivalent. That in the very moment that I am able to hold Mary in my arms, I will be celebrating with my siblings. That in the very moment I am celebrating with my siblings, I am prostrate before Christ. That in the very moment I am prostrate before Christ, I am interceding for a church militant on Earth, and so on and so forth. That in Heaven, there is a totality of existence in which eternity is a single instant and a single instant is an eternity. With this ambivalence, Heaven is not strictly spiritual or even less physical, but quite the opposite, more physical than our current reality.

In Hell, it may be just the opposite, in which the physical limitations of our present reality are further shackled into an absolute slavery, in which a person cannot even command their own limbs, let alone participate in the mystical communion in all its ambivalence and intimacy. That their self-control has reached an absolute zero.
 
Lol, I’m sorry. When I say “ambivalence” I meant to say “ubiquitous”. I don’t know why I mixed those up.

In Heaven, we will have a perfect vocabulary.
 
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