Heaven and Hell

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GramdpaMunster

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If there is a heaven there has to be a hell
If there is a hell there can not be a heaven

If there is not a hell and everyone goes to heaven, it will be like earth. Not exactly heaven.
No one who is not a total psychopath could be happy in heaven knowing that friends and family are in hell.

Yep - it’s a paradox.
 
What are you talking about? How can there be no heaven if there’s a hell?

You do realize by dismissing the existence of Heaven and Hell are are undermining the entire church and its teaching, as well as the Bible? It says you are Lutheran, so I would argue with you based on Lutheran doctrine, but since you refuse to accept Lutheran doctrine, I am not sure on which basis to argue your ignorant “paradoxical” remark.
 
Hmm, ok wait I read that wrong… whoops… Yeah weird, if there is a heaven, there’s a hell. If there’s a hell there must be a heaven. One can not exist with out the other.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
If there is a heaven there has to be a hell
If there is a hell there can not be a heaven

If there is not a hell and everyone goes to heaven, it will be like earth. Not exactly heaven.
No one who is not a total psychopath could be happy in heaven knowing that friends and family are in hell.

Yep - it’s a paradox.
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Therefore the reason for Purgatory, so we can be purged of junk and therefore Heaven will not be like Earth… And those who end up in Hell are the ones who rejected God and have no desire to be with God… They won’t be missed.

I don’t know of anyone who has gone to Hell… But I will speculate that Adolf Hitler and some of his followers may have (Only God Knows) … Will he be missed by his loved ones? Don’t know, but I suspect even his mother would say, if she is in Heaven, “He got what he deserved”
 
GramdpaMunster said:
If there is a heaven there has to be a hell
If there is a hell there can not be a heaven

If there is not a hell and everyone goes to heaven, it will be like earth. Not exactly heaven.
No one who is not a total psychopath could be happy in heaven knowing that friends and family are in hell.

Yep - it’s a paradox.
Click to expand...
we have been given free will, thouse who chose not to be with God chose to be in hell. Sorry but that’s it, if you want to be with God and you still have a lot of sin then God sends you to purgatory.

Hell is the absence of God, hence the absence of everything good. Those who chose to be in hell chose this evil. It is sad that friends must be split between these two but it is a matter of personal choice.
 
TantumErgo said:
What are you talking about? How can there be no heaven if there’s a hell?

You do realize by dismissing the existence of Heaven and Hell are are undermining the entire church and its teaching, as well as the Bible? It says you are Lutheran, so I would argue with you based on Lutheran doctrine, but since you refuse to accept Lutheran doctrine, I am not sure on which basis to argue your ignorant “paradoxical” remark.
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You take everything I say with absolute literalism. Yes - I believe in heaven and hell. I was simply pointing out the paradox of thier existance.
 
Will_B said:
Therefore the reason for Purgatory, so we can be purged of junk and therefore Heaven will not be like Earth… And those who end up in Hell are the ones who rejected God and have no desire to be with God… They won’t be missed.

I don’t know of anyone who has gone to Hell… But I will speculate that Adolf Hitler and some of his followers may have (Only God Knows) … Will he be missed by his loved ones? Don’t know, but I suspect even his mother would say, if she is in Heaven, “He got what he deserved”
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So, purrgatory cleanses you of compassion so you don’t feel sorry for friends and family in hell. That’s disconcerning.
 
I don’t think he said that purgatory cleanses one of compassion.

Look at it this way. Can you honestly say that it is better for evil to be dragged (kicking and screaming) into heaven, where it will remain, kicking and screaming, attempting to spread the evil and being seen and heard for eternity, just because some people seem to think (and remember, we are limited, finite beings so we don’t really see the ‘full picture’) that somehow heaven is ‘tainted’ if everybody isn’t there?

Perfect compassion, IOW, might then be sorrowing for the sin of one who deliberately turned from God. . .without feeling that this person’s eternal damnation somehow lessens, cheapens, or makes ‘incomplete’ one’s own salvation. . .IOW, that sorrow (while perceived and known) is not ‘felt’ the way that we would understand it to be felt in our imperfect world.

If we are filled with perfect joy and love, then there isn’t room for any other feeling, right? If there were, we wouldn’t be filled, and the feeling/concept of perfection wouldn’t be perfect . . . and thus, we wouldn’t be with God.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
You take everything I say with absolute literalism. Yes - I believe in heaven and hell. I was simply pointing out the paradox of thier existance.
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Heaven= A place for people who want to be with God
Hell= A place for thouse who disobey God and reject him.
Paradox?
 
GramdpaMunster said:
So, purrgatory cleanses you of compassion so you don’t feel sorry for friends and family in hell. That’s disconcerning.
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The people in hell don’t want to come out of hell, like people in Lutheranism don’t want to enter the Catholic Church again. The Saints and Angels in heaven can see them though, and are sorry they must suffer there. But is is not an evil sorrow, one which is subject to despair or hopelesness or anguish. Its just a different type of sorrow.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
So, purrgatory cleanses you of compassion so you don’t feel sorry for friends and family in hell. That’s disconcerning.
Click to expand...
Grampa,
while this is a mystery to us all, and therefore anything we say is pure speculation, I will add my two cents. I assume that all things become clear in heaven. Perhaps those in heaven understand the situation better than we do. Perhaps they understand that it is purely out of love and respect fo r his creatures that God gives each man a choice to be with him in heaven or to remain apart in Hell. Perhaps those in heaven understand that to force someone to go to heaven to face God when they want to shun God is not an act of love and that those in Hell get exactly what they want . And Perhaps those in Heaven, accept that God knows best.

You know, CS Lewis wrote in the GREAT DIVORCE that those in hell are there because they want to be there. They just value different things than those in Heaven. They value things like money, and status, and power that have no place in heaven so they wouldn’t be happy there and in fact, when given the opportunity to stay in heaven, most decide to go back to Hell. While I don’t think CS Lewis is an inspired author, I do think there is some truth in what he says.
 
HickmanJosh said:
Heaven= A place for people who want to be with God
Hell= A place for thouse who disobey God and reject him.
Paradox?
Click to expand...
OK - suppose not everyone you know gets into heaven. Suppose, for example, your uncle commited a mortal sin and died unrepentant. Can you truely be happy in heaven knowing that he is frying like a peice of bacon in hell? If so your a psychopath.
 
GramdpaMunster said:
OK - suppose not everyone you know gets into heaven. Suppose, for example, your uncle commited a mortal sin and died unrepentant. Can you truely be happy in heaven knowing that he is frying like a peice of bacon in hell? If so your a psychopath.
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Teh concept of eternal punishment is troubling, I agree. But that doesn’t make it less real
 
GramdpaMunster said:
OK - suppose not everyone you know gets into heaven. Suppose, for example, your uncle commited a mortal sin and died unrepentant. Can you truely be happy in heaven knowing that he is frying like a peice of bacon in hell? If so your a psychopath.
Click to expand...
First of all i don’t think my uncle would do something like that, second of all if he did go to hell it is understandable.

i would think if he did not repent then he probably either forgot about it or didn’t want to be with God anymore (for whatever reason). could you imagine God sending someone to hell of a sin they have forgotten? If someone does not want to be with God then it is understandable for them to go to hell, i would be sad yes, but it would be worse for my uncle to be in a place he does not want to be in. I don’t think he would go to hell if he didn’t want to, if he wanted to go to Heaven but just had a lot of sin then that is why there is purgatory.

but then again if you want to be in Heaven you must also chose to accept Gods rules and not sin, confusing but, yeah.
 
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