Heaven and Hell?

[BumpSetSpike]

As I understand, many Catholics believe that outside of the church there is no salvation. Some do not, however.

To the people (catholic or not) who believe outside of there church there is no salvation: What determins that you go to Heaven? Between a a person that practices and is devoted in another faith, and a person inside the church who does not practice, who would go to Heaven?

To the people who believe in salvation outsie the church: Where is the line?

 

[Spirithound]

To the people (catholic or not) who believe outside of there church there is no salvation: What determins that you go to Heaven? Between a a person that practices and is devoted in another faith, and a person inside the church who does not practice, who would go to Heaven?

There is no salvation outside the Church. This is not to say that explicit membership is required. Heaven is attained by those souls who die in a state of grace. Grace is given at baptism, lost by mortal sin, and regained through confession. Whether a person of another faith gets to heaven is dependant on whether they have sanctifying grace. Baptism is the only way we know of to initially gain sanctifying grace, but that does not mean the God does not know of another way.

A person who is explicitly a member of the C23 is bound by the same rules. Since they are a member, they were baptized. If they die in mortal sin, they go to hell. If they are a non-practising member, well, only God can truly judge them.

 

[DeFide]

As I understand, many Catholics believe that outside of the church there is no salvation. Some do not, however.

To the people (catholic or not) who believe outside of there church there is no salvation: What determins that you go to Heaven? Between a a person that practices and is devoted in another faith, and a person inside the church who does not practice, who would go to Heaven?

To the people who believe in salvation outsie the church: Where is the line?

Catholics do not have the freedom to believe whatever they want on this issue. The question is, what does the Church mean when it says that there is no salvation outside of the Church or even outside of Christ?

Recommended Reading:
catholic.com/library/Salvation_Outside_the_Church.asp

From the Catechism:

**“Outside the Church there is no salvation” **
[846](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/846.htm’) How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
[848](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/848.htm’) "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Related reading:
catholic.com/library/Pillar.asp
(section 3/4 down article: **What You Must Do to Be Saved) **

 

[Future_Prodigy]

A person who is explicitly a member of the C23 is bound by the same rules. Since they are a member, they were baptized. If they die in mortal sin, they go to hell. If they are a non-practising member, well, only God can truly judge them.

What is the official church teaching on the issue of dying in mortal sin before repentance? Is it a sure fire way to hell? THat seems problematic… like what if im in a car accident and i die with mortal sin on my soul before confessing it. I don’t think God would damn them for that, especially a God of Mercy and Love! My chaplain always says if you or I couldnt damn someone to Hell, do yo uthink our Father in heaven is is much more merciful than us will?! He knows everything after all!

 

[Future_Prodigy]

p.s. I often struggle with the salvation outside of the church issue. I am glad we teach this but does this not negate the neccessity and uttermost need of the crucifixation to have happened? Like if salvation is attainablle outside the church why did Christ NEED to die for us, if another path was/is readily available?

 

[thistle]

What is the official church teaching on the issue of dying in mortal sin before repentance? Is it a sure fire way to hell? THat seems problematic… like what if im in a car accident and i die with mortal sin on my soul before confessing it. I don’t think God would damn them for that, especially a God of Mercy and Love! My chaplain always says if you or I couldnt damn someone to Hell, do yo uthink our Father in heaven is is much more merciful than us will?! He knows everything after all!

These are comments of Protestants who have this line of thought so they can justify living a sinful life and want to bend God to their will rather than them obeying God’s will.

God is love and mercy but he does not force that upon us. He gave us free will to choose. If we commit a mortal sin then we are rejecting God’s love and the way back is to ask for his mercy in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

If we die in a state of unrepentant mortal sin we are condemned to Hell but it is not God sending us there but ourselves choosing to go there because we have rejected God’s love.
Doing good works during our lifetime have no merit unless you die in a state of grace.

 

[Spirithound]

What is the official church teaching on the issue of dying in mortal sin before repentance? Is it a sure fire way to hell? THat seems problematic… like what if im in a car accident and i die with mortal sin on my soul before confessing it. I don’t think God would damn them for that, especially a God of Mercy and Love! My chaplain always says if you or I couldnt damn someone to Hell, do yo uthink our Father in heaven is is much more merciful than us will?! He knows everything after all!

p.s. I often struggle with the salvation outside of the church issue. I am glad we teach this but does this not negate the neccessity and uttermost need of the crucifixion to have happened? Like if salvation is attainablle outside the church why did Christ NEED to die for us, if another path was/is readily available?

Official Church teaching is that dying in a state of mortal sin is a sure-fire way to hell. Let’s juice up your example by saying that Jim-Bob died in a car accident before confessing his mortal sin, while he was on his way to confession. At this point, my Baptist friend would say that mortal sin is a gamble. I totally agree (but not in the perjorative way he means). To commit mortal sin is gambling with one’s soul.
Our God is not only the God of Mercy and Love, but also of Justice. We, as humans have the free will to choose heaven, or choose hell.
Our understanding of salvation outside the church actually affirms the necessity of the crucifixion. As i said before, explicit membership in the Catholic Church is the most efficient way to heaven. We don’t know of any other way. What this doctrine of “non-explicit membership” is, is a recognition that God is not bound by the sacraments. He could, theoretically take non-Christians to heaven, but we don’t actually know that He does so.

p.s. check out the 15 promises of the Rosary.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

That is utterly ridiculous!!! Then I as a RCIA candidate do not hold to that belief at all! If God knows I am repentant in my heart but have not had the chance to go to confession then I believe I will go to Heaven not Hell. This is why Protestants have always had a hard time with confession and i thought it was starting to be seen more as a gift than a necessity but i guess we are still stuck in the pre-tridentine views of confession. I think that is totally nonsense. Yes, God is a God of Justice but will not condemn his child because he had not yet made the extra 40 yards to the confessional to ‘properly’ confess his sins.

 

[thistle]

That is utterly ridiculous!!! Then I as a RCIA candidate do not hold to that belief at all! If God knows I am repentant in my heart but have not had the chance to go to confession then I believe I will go to Heaven not Hell. This is why Protestants have always had a hard time with confession and i thought it was starting to be seen more as a gift than a necessity but i guess we are still stuck in the pre-tridentine views of confession. I think that is totally nonsense. Yes, God is a God of Justice but will not condemn his child because he had not yet made the extra 40 yards to the confessional to ‘properly’ confess his sins.

Its not ridiculous. You just don’t get it.
If someone has committed a mortal sin and they are truly repentent they may make an Act of Perfect Contrition. This would entail going to Confession as soon as possible after that. If that person happened to die before getting to Confession their sins would be forgiven and they would be saved.
If no effort is made to go to Confession after the act of perfect contrition then it would mean the penitent probably wasn’t truly repentent.

In case you don’t know what imperfect or perfect contrition is see below:

Contrition

CCC 1451 Among the penitent’s acts contrition occupies first place. Contrition is “sorrow of the soul and detestation for the sin committed, together with the resolution not to sin again.”

**CCC 1452 When it arises from a love by which God is loved above all else, contrition is called “perfect” (contrition of charity). Such contrition remits venial sins; it also obtains forgiveness of mortal sins if it includes the firm resolution to have recourse to sacramental confession as soon as possible. **

CCC 1453 The contrition called “imperfect” (or “attrition”) is also a gift of God, a prompting of the Holy Spirit. It is born of the consideration of sin’s ugliness or the fear of eternal damnation and the other penalties threatening the sinner (contrition of fear). Such a stirring of conscience can initiate an interior process which, under the prompting of grace, will be brought to completion by sacramental absolution. By itself however, imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance.

 

[Pug]

p.s. I often struggle with the salvation outside of the church issue. I am glad we teach this but does this not negate the neccessity and uttermost need of the crucifixation to have happened? Like if salvation is attainablle outside the church why did Christ NEED to die for us, if another path was/is readily available?

A person who gets saved even though not a part of the visible Church still gets saved by Christ. The crucifixion is still being applied to the person. They are not getting saved by some other means besides Christ. They are just getting saved without being a explicit member of the visible Church on earth.

A fairly clear example of this is that the Old Testament righteous didn’t die and go straight to heaven. They waited around while dead until Christ came and died on the cross and then descend into the dead/hell, where he then freed them. Only after that did the gates of heaven open and they go to heaven. So the crucifixion applied even to those before the Church was around.

Speculatively, God was not forced to send his Son to be crucified. He could have chosen another way to save people, but he didn’t. He chose a spectacularly superabundant love and justice way to do it, and he chose it freely.

 

[Spirithound]

Its not ridiculous. You just don’t get it.
If someone has committed a mortal sin and they are truly repentent they may make an Act of Perfect Contrition. This would entail going to Confession as soon as possible after that. If that person happened to die before getting to Confession their sins would be forgiven and they would be saved.

Thanks Thistle, i totally neglected the Act of Perfect Contrition.

 

[Future_Prodigy]

thanks thistle and pug… that answers my questions. The answers given above were something i could not accpet… that i can. Thank you!

 

[Legal_Eagle]

The most definitive statment on Salvation outside the Church is Dominus Iesus You can find it here:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20000806_dominus-iesus_en.html

 

[ThePRGuy]

Are we talking Salvation or the old theory that only Catholics will get into heaven? If the latter, then God’s chosen people, the Jews, also will be “saved” and enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, according to Catholic teaching. However, that is not to say that Protestants, who profess a belief in Jesus Christ and follow in his teachings, won’t go to heaven. They may. There may be many paths to heaven, but only one guaranteed one…a belief in Jesus. Plus good works, contrite heart, you know the rest…

 

[Alex_m]

Dear,
I have concern over the people who always show ignorance and use it to attack people. however it is the case that we are born without knowledge and so when we grow, we end up taking up the knowledge we aquire from experience.

so some people have lived in other protestant churches and have been against the catholic church ever since were born. am happy that you are trying to find out the truth. so let us also put some faith in what ever we learn. believe it that all religions have a point of faith.
moslems believe that Muhammad at a certain point he got the curan from the Angel Gabriel and christians believe that the bible was writen by the power of God, isent it? then we also before we come to take some readings in the bible first accept the bible.

here am always bitter with some religions who are against the bible and still quote the bible. If you believe in the bible, you have to believe that the person who composed it is aware of it than any other person who reads it. therefore, the catholic church is the true religion that may explain the ideas in the bible than any other religion.

coming again to talk about hell and Heaven:
we consider the things on earth. everything that is in Heaven has a reflection on earth. we have three places on earth where people are tried.
first, when one is mentioned to have commited a crime, one is taken to jail untill one is taken to court. so this place of judgement is what catholics have called purgatory, which is a place of purification. then when the case is against you, you are taken to hell, which is our prison and lastly when you win the case you are set free, that is Heaven.

if one does not understand this, then let him or her ask more or write to me directly on mubangizialex@yahoo.com thanks very much.

 

[VociMike]

That is utterly ridiculous!!! Then I as a RCIA candidate do not hold to that belief at all! If God knows I am repentant in my heart but have not had the chance to go to confession then I believe I will go to Heaven not Hell.

If we know anything about God it is that he judges rightly and not by legalisms. I am quite convinced that nobody, but nobody, goes through life living in Christ, then commits a mortal sin (and remember the conditions for a mortal sin!) for which they are not immediately repentant, and then God allows them to die before they repent and sends them to hell. To put it another way, I am quite convinced that God doesn’t play “gotcha!” with our immortal souls.

And the concept of Perfect Contrition is just a statement to that effect.

 

[JRKH]

As I understand, many Catholics believe that outside of the church there is no salvation. Some do not, however.

To the people (catholic or not) who believe outside of there church there is no salvation: What determins that you go to Heaven? Between a a person that practices and is devoted in another faith, and a person inside the church who does not practice, who would go to Heaven?

To the people who believe in salvation outsie the church: Where is the line?

I would say that Jesus’ parable about the man and his two sons is most appropriate here. The one son says he will go and work but does not. The other says he will not work but repents and then does do to the field. Which did the will of the Father?

Consider this in prayer with God.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

That is utterly ridiculous!!! Then I as a RCIA candidate do not hold to that belief at all! If God knows I am repentant in my heart but have not had the chance to go to confession then I believe I will go to Heaven not Hell. This is why Protestants have always had a hard time with confession and i thought it was starting to be seen more as a gift than a necessity but i guess we are still stuck in the pre-tridentine views of confession. I think that is totally nonsense. Yes, God is a God of Justice but will not condemn his child because he had not yet made the extra 40 yards to the confessional to ‘properly’ confess his sins.

Not to dive into this full force since I have not read all the responses, but I would say that a truely repentatn person who, “had not yet made the extra 40 yards to the confessional”, has already made a “proper” confession by intent. In other words the sincere intent is to get to confession as soon as possible. If one dies before that, God certainly understands the heart and would not hold the “technicality” against one.

Peace
James

 

[Catholic_JIMMY]

Where is the line?

There are two ways to God; both in which one must follow the natural laws (basically the 10 commandments) Christianity and complete ignorance of it. People who are completely ignorant of it probably go to Purgatory for purification, unless they have been really bad people. In which case they sadly “burn” in Hell (which is actually an eternal state of being, because only one’s soul and mind are present But truth be told only God knows when to draw the line.

 

[Alex_m]

Official Church teaching is that dying in a state of mortal sin is a sure-fire way to hell. Let’s juice up your example by saying that Jim-Bob died in a car accident before confessing his mortal sin, while he was on his way to confession. At this point, my Baptist friend would say that mortal sin is a gamble. I totally agree (but not in the perjorative way he means). To commit mortal sin is gambling with one’s soul.
Our God is not only the God of Mercy and Love, but also of Justice. We, as humans have the free will to choose heaven, or choose hell.
Our understanding of salvation outside the church actually affirms the necessity of the crucifixion. As i said before, explicit membership in the Catholic Church is the most efficient way to heaven. We don’t know of any other way. What this doctrine of “non-explicit membership” is, is a recognition that God is not bound by the sacraments. He could, theoretically take non-Christians to heaven, but we don’t actually know that He does so.

p.s. check out the 15 promises of the Rosary.

Dear!
am sorry, we have to also understand the reasons to why Jesus had to come here on earth.
he came to save man kind. therefore we hope to be saved, a point which the Pentecostalism have often missed. however, Jesus gives us a chance to have repentance. he said that we need to remain prepared and so we don`t know the time and hour when the son of man will come. as he also referred to a thief who attacks the house, and said that that day will come like a thief. please, always keep yourself free from mortal sins. remember we are not expected to commit sins that after wards we can repent, but we have to keep our selves free from sins.

yes, may promised these promises, however its true that a person who truely meditates upon these mysteries of the rosary and tries to live by them, that person finds it hard to commit a mortal sin.

dear, brothers and sisters, try to remain in a state of holiness. what can one profit to enjoy this world for a short time and you suffer for the rest of the years?