Heaven can wait

[Bubba_Switzler]

While I fear death, and hell, as any sensible person would, I am not especially attracted to heaven, at least as it is usually presented.

Heaven is usually described by two features:

1. There is no suffering, no desire, every need or want is provided for by God.
2. There is no independence of will, everyone submits to the will of God.

I can certainly appreciate how the first feature would appeal to those weary of life, those who are hungry or lonely, those who are ill of health or otherwise suffering.

But I rather prefer a world in which people provide for themselves and each other, where our needs are satisfied by our own labors and by our love of one another. I do not mean, by this, to diminish God’s role in creation or my gratefulness to Him, but, rather, to suggest that I prefer a distant, tolerant God as is our human experience to one who would be the center of attention.

Which brings us to the second point. While I understand that sin is, by definition, the defiance of God’s will, it strikes me as peculiar that there would be nothing between sin and selfless devotion to God’s will. A heaven in which we lose our will and selflessly serve God’s will sounds a lot like Hindu Nirvana and the destruction of individuality.

My ideal afterlife would be an opportunity to continue to grow and learn and build, and to help others grow and learn and to experience life without the fear of death.

Now may be I am simply not old enough and wise enough to appreciate how wonderful heaven will be. Maybe I am like a child in a womb who has no concept of what lies ahead and clings to what is familiar.

But as the great Catholic theologian Billy Joel wrote, “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.”

 

[david_friol_1]

While I fear death, and hell, as any sensible person would, I am not especially attracted to heaven, at least as it is usually presented.

Heaven is usually described by two features:

1. There is no suffering, no desire, every need or want is provided for by God.
2. There is no independence of will, everyone submits to the will of God.

I can certainly appreciate how the first feature would appeal to those weary of life, those who are hungry or lonely, those who are ill of health or otherwise suffering.

But I rather prefer a world in which people provide for themselves and each other, where our needs are satisfied by our own labors and by our love of one another. I do not mean, by this, to diminish God’s role in creation or my gratefulness to Him, but, rather, to suggest that I prefer a distant, tolerant God as is our human experience to one who would be the center of attention.

Which brings us to the second point. While I understand that sin is, by definition, the defiance of God’s will, it strikes me as peculiar that there would be nothing between sin and selfless devotion to God’s will. A heaven in which we lose our will and selflessly serve God’s will sounds a lot like Hindu Nirvana and the destruction of individuality.

My ideal afterlife would be an opportunity to continue to grow and learn and build, and to help others grow and learn and to experience life without the fear of death.

Now may be I am simply not old enough and wise enough to appreciate how wonderful heaven will be. Maybe I am like a child in a womb who has no concept of what lies ahead and clings to what is familiar.

But as the great Catholic theologian Billy Joel wrote, “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.”

I can not tell if the whole post is a joke or if you are really serious so i’ll just say two things: you may want to do a search for a better definition of heaven because the one you gave is probably the worst one i have ever heard of; and if Billy Joel is the "Catholic theologian you are looking to for sound Catholic Answers…well Yikes! Too much Zen in your Catholicism

 

[fhansen]

While I fear death, and hell, as any sensible person would, I am not especially attracted to heaven, at least as it is usually presented.

Heaven is usually described by two features:

1. There is no suffering, no desire, every need or want is provided for by God.
2. There is no independence of will, everyone submits to the will of God.

I can certainly appreciate how the first feature would appeal to those weary of life, those who are hungry or lonely, those who are ill of health or otherwise suffering.

But I rather prefer a world in which people provide for themselves and each other, where our needs are satisfied by our own labors and by our love of one another. I do not mean, by this, to diminish God’s role in creation or my gratefulness to Him, but, rather, to suggest that I prefer a distant, tolerant God as is our human experience to one who would be the center of attention.

Which brings us to the second point. While I understand that sin is, by definition, the defiance of God’s will, it strikes me as peculiar that there would be nothing between sin and selfless devotion to God’s will. A heaven in which we lose our will and selflessly serve God’s will sounds a lot like Hindu Nirvana and the destruction of individuality.

My ideal afterlife would be an opportunity to continue to grow and learn and build, and to help others grow and learn and to experience life without the fear of death.

Now may be I am simply not old enough and wise enough to appreciate how wonderful heaven will be. Maybe I am like a child in a womb who has no concept of what lies ahead and clings to what is familiar.

But as the great Catholic theologian Billy Joel wrote, “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.”

Heaven isn’t a place where a beings’ will is lost. It’s a place where beings have come to freely recognize the perfection of Gods will and aligned theirs with it. In that basic sense it’s no different than coming to agree with a political party on its positions, etc. If God allows freedom now He certainly won’t allow any less in heaven. Ultimately everyone does what they think is right in their own mind so why would anyone want to sin if they’ve come to believe a given particular action is wrong? Laughing with sinners is some cute romantic idealism. We’re all sinners. We’re also all children in the womb-this world being a place of gestation to whatever lies ahead-and, you’re right, we don’t know a great deal about that.

 

[GKChestertonAS]

While I haven’t read much into the details of heaven, I tend to agree with you on being uncomfortable and unexcited with the way it is traditionally presented. Your stance reminds me of a quote from Aldous Huxley’s novel Brave New World, “But I don’t want comfort. I want God, I want poetry, I want real danger, I want freedom, I want goodness. I want sin.” (just to clarify…I interpret “wanting sin” as wanting an antithesis for good in order to make good richer…at least that’s what the overall character seemed to present) As a Catholic college student that goes to a diverse school, I prefer something a bit more colorful (and human…).

The traditional and stereotypical image of heaven is rather bland, but then I think about the richness of Earth, and how everything good is made in the image of God. Heaven, I feel, is going to be more mysterious than we think. The diversity of Earth is probably only a sample of the culture, beauty, and mysticism that resides in Heaven. I am confident that there will be art, humor, joy, love, and spontaneity. Think about how Jesus lived; He drank wine with his good friends and family, He loved spirited conversations, and making things with his hands. I cannot see why it can’t be like that eternally.

“Our mental ruin has been wrought by wild reason, not by wild imagination.” -G.K Chesterton (A great mystic…I recommend his essays and books. He describes the intricacies and beauty of the most orthodox institutions and ideas)

 

[Lancer]

For your consideration (and hopefully…some chuckles)

Heaven is 100+ % focused on one Person**…The Almighty Other…The Beatific Vision and life in/with the Trinitarian God…where as your post is dominated by… the “almighty I”…(some 10x’s if I count correctly)…which would be okay…IF** the** “almighty I”** really is an Almighty…but…alas…it ain’t so! **

You probably feel…I don’t deserve this…this annihilation of my “almighty I”…just to be in heaven. So… I will "see your Billy Joel theological quote"…and “raise you”…by calling on another “notable” theologian*…William Munney* (Clint Eastwood) the notorious character in the town of Big Whiskey, Wy… in the academy award winning Western movie…UNFORGIVEN

"…Deserve’s got nothin’ to do with it

…"!

A good book to read**…C.S. Lewis’** The Great Divorce…and one piece of advice from what I learned in the book…get off the darn bus!

Lastly…Saint Paul "spills the beans" about Heaven in 1Cor 13:

1 Corinthians 13: 10-13 (NIV- UK)

10 but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.

11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me.
12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love.** But the greatest of these is love". **[the “spilled beans”…its all about love…no room whatsoever… for my “almighty I”].

Pax Christi

 

[paul_c]

I too would recommend the Great Divorce.

But I think the one thing to remember is that Heaven will be much better than anything on earth and it will be hard to describe for us. I imagine it consist of pure love.

 

[Miriam1947]

Has anyone here read the book Travel Guide to Heaven?

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I do hope everyone is reading each other’s comments because it does seem that I am being criticized both for misrepresenting the Catholic idea of heaven and for rejecting that idea as unattractive.

I can not tell if the whole post is a joke or if you are really serious so i’ll just say two things: you may want to do a search for a better definition of heaven because the one you gave is probably the worst one i have ever heard of; and if Billy Joel is the "Catholic theologian you are looking to for sound Catholic Answers…well Yikes! Too much Zen in your Catholicism

Here is New Advent:

newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

But note that I am not defiing heaven, only describe two aspects that I find unattractive.

Heaven isn’t a place where a beings’ will is lost. It’s a place where beings have come to freely recognize the perfection of Gods will and aligned theirs with it. In that basic sense it’s no different than coming to agree with a political party on its positions, etc.

Ok, but then

Heaven is 100+ % focused on one Person**…The Almighty Other…The Beatific Vision and life in/with the Trinitarian God…where as your post is dominated by… the “almighty I”…(some 10x’s if I count correctly)…which would be okay…IF** the** “almighty I”** really is an Almighty…but…alas…it ain’t so!

I have heard this before and it is a big part of what I am discussing here. However, note that the 100% you claim does seem to be contradicted at two points, firstly the secondary beatific vision where we get to see our departed loved ones and, secondly, the various descriptions of heaven as a great feast in which we are enjoying the food (even if by metaphor).

And note, of course, that if heaven were an eternal salt mine it would still be preferable to death and hell.

The traditional and stereotypical image of heaven is rather bland, but then I think about the richness of Earth, and how everything good is made in the image of God. Heaven, I feel, is going to be more mysterious than we think. The diversity of Earth is probably only a sample of the culture, beauty, and mysticism that resides in Heaven. I am confident that there will be art, humor, joy, love, and spontaneity. Think about how Jesus lived; He drank wine with his good friends and family, He loved spirited conversations, and making things with his hands. I cannot see why it can’t be like that eternally.

You seem to share my concern and hopes.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

Has anyone here read the book Travel Guide to Heaven?

travelguidetoheaven.com/

Some interesting excerpts. What is the basis of it?

 

[Petergray]

But as the great Catholic theologian Billy Joel wrote, “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.”

This is normal in my opinion. No-one wants to die because we dont know what will happen afterwards. If we knew for a fact taht we go to Heaven, which I fully believe in, then we will all look forward to dying We would not commit sucide to get there though as this is a sin. I think that Heaven is to make us stop worrying about death lets be honest, I believe fully that there is a Heaven and when I am ready to go, I will willingly.

Basically I am saying that you are not ready to die yet so dont worry about it! We believe in life after death and as long as we are good, we will have a great life after death.

God bless

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I too would recommend the Great Divorce. But I think the one thing to remember is that Heaven will be much better than anything on earth and it will be hard to describe for us. I imagine it consist of pure love.

I can’t remember if I’ve read this or only summaries of it, but I do agree that it is very interesting.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

This is normal in my opinion. No-one wants to die because we dont know what will happen afterwards. If we knew for a fact taht we go to Heaven, which I fully believe in, then we will all look forward to dying We would not commit sucide to get there though as this is a sin. I think that Heaven is to make us stop worrying about death lets be honest, I believe fully that there is a Heaven and when I am ready to go, I will willingly. Basically I am saying that you are not ready to die yet so dont worry about it! We believe in life after death and as long as we are good, we will have a great life after death.

Certainly, I do not discount the possibility that Heaven is a great place. I am reacting more to how it is presented than what it actually is.

And this is not, I think, an academic question. Although, as you correctly point out, you can’t get to heaven by deliberate suicide (with all due allowance for the genuinely insane), my interest is also to infer what our beliefs about heaven tell us about good and evil, about how we should live our lives.

As you probably know, there is a strong ascetic tradition within Christianity, generally, and Catholicism, specifically. Some interpret the history of Christianity by the rise and fall of the ascetic tradition as against what I will call the pro-life tradition for lack of a better term. Ascetics seek to deny themselves, to avoid society, to avoid pleasure, even sometimes to inflict pain upon themselves. Naturally, ascetics would view heaven as centered “100%” on God. Is this an ideal of good toward which to strive?

 

[paul_c]

Certainly, I do not discount the possibility that Heaven is a great place. I am reacting more to how it is presented than what it actually is.

And this is not, I think, an academic question. Although, as you correctly point out, you can’t get to heaven by deliberate suicide (with all due allowance for the genuinely insane), my interest is also to infer what our beliefs about heaven tell us about good and evil, about how we should live our lives.

As you probably know, there is a strong ascetic tradition within Christianity, generally, and Catholicism, specifically. Some interpret the history of Christianity by the rise and fall of the ascetic tradition as against what I will call the pro-life tradition for lack of a better term. Ascetics seek to deny themselves, to avoid society, to avoid pleasure, even sometimes to inflict pain upon themselves. Naturally, ascetics would view heaven as centered “100%” on God. Is this an ideal of good toward which to strive?

You know, I read the excerpts for the travel guide to heaven and it struck me about how naive that book was. It starts off by saying that heaven has everything on earth that you would want… your friends and family, your dog, a buff and healthy body, tasty food, infinite vacations, etc. and then as almost an after thought, it says that heaven has something greater than earth - you get to meet God. Now if that is truly the greatest thing in heaven, why would anybody be worried about being with their dog or playing another game of beach volleyball? They would gravitate into the presence of God, would they not.

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

You know, I read the excerpts for the travel guide to heaven and it struck me about how naive that book was. It starts off by saying that heaven has everything on earth that you would want… your friends and family, your dog, a buff and healthy body, tasty food, infinite vacations, etc. and then as almost an after thought, it says that heaven has something greater than earth - you get to meet God. Now if that is truly the greatest thing in heaven, why would anybody be worried about being with their dog or playing another game of beach volleyball? They would gravitate into the presence of God, would they not.

This is another way of stating the question that is nagging at me.

Again, with all due respect to the fact that we can’t possibly appreciate what heaven will be, it seems that there really are two visions of heaven. On the one hand, like life on earth, only better. On the other hand, like an eternal church service but with a real, direct experience of God which is so wonderful that we can’t understand how great it will be.

But one element from my OP that nobody has commented upon is the first attribute, namely that it is a place without suffering or unfulfilled desire. I’m just not sure that would be so great. And it does go back to what Lancer said about the “I”. I (me, me, me) wants to accomplish something of value, to help others and, yes, help myself.

 

[fhansen]

fhansen;7485623:

Heaven isn’t a place where a beings’ will is lost. It’s a place where beings have come to freely recognize the perfection of Gods will and aligned theirs with it. In that basic sense it’s no different than coming to agree with a political party on its positions, etc.

Ok, but then

Heaven is 100+ % focused on one Person…The Almighty Other…The Beatific Vision and life in/with the Trinitarian God…where as your post is dominated by… the “almighty I”…(some 10x’s if I count correctly)…which would be okay…IF the “almighty I” really is an Almighty…but…alas…it ain’t so!

I have heard this before and it is a big part of what I am discussing here. However, note that the 100% you claim does seem to be contradicted at two points, firstly the secondary beatific vision where we get to see our departed loved ones and, secondly, the various descriptions of heaven as a great feast in which we are enjoying the food (even if by metaphor).

I know it’s hard-actually impossible- to imagine this (and scripture affirms that it’s impossible) but the testimony of those who’ve been given a taste of what heaven –or more importantly God-is like is that the will is absolutely enthralled by and focused on Him-because He’s the inexhaustible source of sheer, uncompromised happiness/beatitude/delight. This doesn’t mean we don’t exist-it just means we’ll do what we’re made to do-pursue the good that we perceive makes us happiest. But I think the Beatific Vision-the immediate presence of God- is simply always with you in heaven; it’s the overarching condition of that state-not constrained by what else a being may be doing.

 

[Petergray]

As you probably know, there is a strong ascetic tradition within Christianity, generally, and Catholicism, specifically. Some interpret the history of Christianity by the rise and fall of the ascetic tradition as against what I will call the pro-life tradition for lack of a better term. Ascetics seek to deny themselves, to avoid society, to avoid pleasure, even sometimes to inflict pain upon themselves. Naturally, ascetics would view heaven as centered “100%” on God. Is this an ideal of good toward which to strive?

In my opinion, I think that if you follow the ten commandments, you will get to heaven. This is only my opinion though

 

[XinMinny]

Hi everyone,
I have a little to add for discussion. I think often about 1 Cor 13, where Paul wrote, “Then we will know as we are known…” I appreciate the idea that this means we will know all about God, everything He did and tried to do to help us (and I mean that in the way of personally touching our hearts as well as any church involvement anyone might have).
Along with this would go the idea that Heaven is a place where every spiritual desire is met (not every desire, or every good human desire, but every spiritual desire). And, of course, where we really don’t have much more feeling for our own identity because of the awesomeness of the presence of God.
Thanks

 

[Bubba_Switzler]

I know it’s hard-actually impossible- to imagine this (and scripture affirms that it’s impossible) but the testimony of those who’ve been given a taste of what heaven –or more importantly God-is like is that the will is absolutely enthralled by and focused on Him-because He’s the inexhaustible source of sheer, uncompromised happiness/beatitude/delight. This doesn’t mean we don’t exist-it just means we’ll do what we’re made to do-pursue the good that we perceive makes us happiest. But I think the Beatific Vision-the immediate presence of God- is simply always with you in heaven; it’s the overarching condition of that state-not constrained by what else a being may be doing.

I was thinking further about this. In addition to the previously mentioned banquet metaphor and secondary beatific vision (reunion with deceased loved ones), here is an even better counter-argument:

The intercession of saints.

Saints are, by definition, those whom we are most certain are with God.

And, yet, we pray to the saints for intercession. That implies that we expect the saints to be paying attention to our prayers and to act on them, in other words, to be concerned with our well being.

That would seem to contradict the notion that those in the presence of God are focused 100% on God.

Further, to the extent that the saints desire our well being, they will have unfulfilled desires which they are seeking to satisfy by their intercession.

 

[thistle]

While I fear death, and hell, as any sensible person would, I am not especially attracted to heaven, at least as it is usually presented.

Heaven is usually described by two features:

1. There is no suffering, no desire, every need or want is provided for by God.
2. There is no independence of will, everyone submits to the will of God.

I can certainly appreciate how the first feature would appeal to those weary of life, those who are hungry or lonely, those who are ill of health or otherwise suffering.

But I rather prefer a world in which people provide for themselves and each other, where our needs are satisfied by our own labors and by our love of one another. I do not mean, by this, to diminish God’s role in creation or my gratefulness to Him, but, rather, to suggest that I prefer a distant, tolerant God as is our human experience to one who would be the center of attention.

Which brings us to the second point. While I understand that sin is, by definition, the defiance of God’s will, it strikes me as peculiar that there would be nothing between sin and selfless devotion to God’s will. A heaven in which we lose our will and selflessly serve God’s will sounds a lot like Hindu Nirvana and the destruction of individuality.

My ideal afterlife would be an opportunity to continue to grow and learn and build, and to help others grow and learn and to experience life without the fear of death.

Now may be I am simply not old enough and wise enough to appreciate how wonderful heaven will be. Maybe I am like a child in a womb who has no concept of what lies ahead and clings to what is familiar.

But as the great Catholic theologian Billy Joel wrote, “I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.”

There is no such thing as a Zen Catholic. The two are contradictory. If you have Zen beliefs that is heresy!