Heaven for the non-Catholic

[Brian777]

Welcome to the forum.

Assuming that you are not too far to the relativism side, what you say here is not out of line with the Church. Someone, who through no fault of their own, cannot become Catholic may still be saved through the Mercy of God.

Amen, yes that is correct. We just need to be careful as to who fits into this category.

 

[ralphinal]

Amen, yes that is correct. We just need to be careful as to who fits into this category.

Agreed. None of us can truly say who is and who is not through no fault of their own. Only God can judge these things.

 

[Madolaina]

Welcome to the forum.

Assuming that you are not too far to the relativism side, what you say here is not out of line with the Church. Someone, who through no fault of their own, cannot become Catholic may still be saved through the Mercy of God.

Two questions…

1. What do you mean ‘relativism side’?
2. Who, besides those who have never heard the word, would be unable to become Catholic?

 

[ralphinal]

Two questions…

1. What do you mean ‘relativism side’?
2. Who, besides those who have never heard the word, would be unable to become Catholic?

Relitivism says that all religions are equal as long as you are a good whatever you are. It is a bad, bad concept, and false. You cannot be a Hindu and have the same odds of getting to heaven as a Christian.

As far as the second one, I cannot answer that because we are all judged separately. Some may try to learn but be unable to. Some may not be given the gift of faith. Some have no chance to learn it.

 

[Brian777]

Relitivism says that all religions are equal as long as you are a good whatever you are. It is a bad, bad concept, and false. You cannot be a Hindu and have the same odds of getting to heaven as a Christian.

As far as the second one, I cannot answer that because we are all judged separately. Some may try to learn but be unable to. Some may not be given the gift of faith. Some have no chance to learn it.

I will say that this is not correct. Everyone is given the gift of Faith, its called actual grace, the grace we are born with. It is not enough to save us, but if cooperated with it brings us to conversion and hence baptism. So all people are capable of believing. That is why we need to be careful with the category of ignorance.

 

[portalofpeace]

I must part with the gift of grace that all are given. Faith as taught by the Catholic Church is the beginning of man’s salvation…inspired and assisted by the grace of God. We believe what He has revealed are true and it is because of the authority of God Himself. The Apostle testifies, faith is ***“the substance of things to be hoped for, the evidence of things that appear not.” ***

 

[Madolaina]

I will say that this is not correct. Everyone is given the gift of Faith, its called actual grace, the grace we are born with. It is not enough to save us, but if cooperated with it brings us to conversion and hence baptism. So all people are capable of believing. That is why we need to be careful with the category of ignorance.

Everyone has the potential for Faith…but faith itself is a difficult concept, abstract to say the least, and many today have not reached that abstract level of thinking. I would hazard a quess that perhaps the organized Catholic religion does a very good job of helping its parishners understand the gift of faith and reaching that level of understanding but for that noncatholic, not endoctrinated into the ‘faith’ there most certainly would be some misunderstanding and subsequently a lack of ‘faith’. Untill such time as they can be educated, are they doomed or are they cloacked by grace and mercy? Is there some dispensation for the lost who at least are seeking ‘faith’? If not, whats the point of the rest of us even trying…we’re damned no matter what???

 

[ralphinal]

I will say that this is not correct. Everyone is given the gift of Faith, its called actual grace, the grace we are born with. It is not enough to save us, but if cooperated with it brings us to conversion and hence baptism. So all people are capable of believing. That is why we need to be careful with the category of ignorance.

Actually, the theological gift of faith is not given to everyone. It is only given to those who are baptised. Should they not be baptised, they may cooporate with a prime grace that draws them to God. Either way, you are correct that they must choose to cooperate.

 

[ralphinal]

Everyone has the potential for Faith…but faith itself is a difficult concept, abstract to say the least, and many today have not reached that abstract level of thinking. I would hazard a quess that perhaps the organized Catholic religion does a very good job of helping its parishners understand the gift of faith and reaching that level of understanding but for that noncatholic, not endoctrinated into the ‘faith’ there most certainly would be some misunderstanding and subsequently a lack of ‘faith’. Untill such time as they can be educated, are they doomed or are they cloacked by grace and mercy? Is there some dispensation for the lost who at least are seeking ‘faith’? If not, whats the point of the rest of us even trying…we’re damned no matter what???

AS long as you keep cooperating with God, you have hope. Keep cooperating. Allow the Holy Spirit to lead you. You will be fine.

You are only lost once you turn from God completely.

 

[portalofpeace]

Madolaina,

As His Holiness John Paul II stated at the beginning of his papacy ***“Be not afraid!” ***Contrary to so many religions and their beliefs and also to many within the Catholic Church…I firmly believe you are not damned. Faith is as you say “complex” but I would recommend you researching the Motive, Rule, Articles and lastly the Act of Faith. Continue on your journey. Though I do not have all the answers, there are many within the forum who do or at least have an opinion they feel is true. It is you who must examine, research and believe. I wish you well in your search! "Be Not Afraid"

 

[portalofpeace]

Lastly…never mistake hope for faith!

 

[Madolaina]

Lastly…never mistake hope for faith!

Tell me the difference.

 

[ChristianKnight]

I hope that when I die, if I go to heaven, its like the Shire, and I live on a huge farm, and get to farm all day, cause I love farming, its amazing to plant something and watch it grow, thats why I work on tobbaco farms.

 

[portalofpeace]

“The Way of Faith” by Martin Luther. "This passage is from Luther’s Commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians:

The question occurs to us, What difference is there between faith and hope? We find it difficult to see any difference. Faith and hope are so closely linked that they cannot be separated. Still there is a difference between them.

First, hope and faith differ in regard to their sources. Faith originates in the understanding, while hope rises in the will.

Secondly, they differ in regard to their functions. Faith says what is to be done. Faith teaches, describes, directs. Hope exhorts the mind to be strong and courageous.

Thirdly, they differ in regard to their objectives. Faith concentrates on the truth. Hope looks to the goodness of God.

Fourthly, they differ in sequence. Faith is the beginning of life before tribulation. (Hebrews 11.) Hope comes later and is born of tribulation. (Romans 5.)

Fifthly, they differ in regard to their effects. Faith is a judge. It judges errors. Hope is a soldier. It fights against tribulations, the cross, despondency, despair, and waits for better things to come in the midst of evil.

Without hope faith cannot endure. On the other hand, hope without faith is blind rashness and arrogance because it lacks knowledge. Before anything else a Christian must have the insight of faith, so that the intellect may know its directions in the day of trouble and the heart may hope for better things. By faith we begin, by hope we continue.

This passage (Galatians 5) contains excellent doctrine and much comfort. It declares that we are justified not by works, sacrifices, or ceremonies, but by Christ alone. The world may judge certain things to be ever so good; without Christ they are all wrong. Circumcision and the law and good works are carnal. “We,” says Paul, “are above such things. We possess Christ by faith and in the midst of our afflictions we hopefully wait for the consummation of our righteousness.”

You may say, “The trouble is I don’t feel as if I am righteous.” You must not feel, but believe. Unless you believe that you are righteous, you do Christ a great wrong, for He has cleansed you by the washing of regeneration, He died for you so that through Him you may obtain righteousness and everlasting life.

 

[Madolaina]

Thank you Portalofpeace…I always thought that hope was awish/desire that things will turn out to be the way they are meant to be …faith is the belief/trust that they will no matter what. I would have to admit that things have happened to ‘shake’ my faith and my hope. Continue to pray I find my way back…its been a long time…I think this forum and you can help me…at least, I ‘hope’.

 

[portalofpeace]

You will find! Hope but have faith and you will find! As before "be not afraid."

 

[Brian777]

Everyone has the potential for Faith…but faith itself is a difficult concept, abstract to say the least, and many today have not reached that abstract level of thinking. I would hazard a quess that perhaps the organized Catholic religion does a very good job of helping its parishners understand the gift of faith and reaching that level of understanding but for that noncatholic, not endoctrinated into the ‘faith’ there most certainly would be some misunderstanding and subsequently a lack of ‘faith’. Untill such time as they can be educated, are they doomed or are they cloacked by grace and mercy? Is there some dispensation for the lost who at least are seeking ‘faith’? If not, whats the point of the rest of us even trying…we’re damned no matter what???

The lost who are seeking faith will not be damned because if they trully wish to find true Faith, they will be brought by God to baptism, either by water, blood, or desire (aka, Sacramental with water and oil and apriest, or by martyrdom whilst in the desire to become Catholic, or by simple desire upon a peaceful death bed.) So no everyone who sicerely seeks and cooperates will not be damned unless they turn from God when they see where he is pointing (His Holy Catholic Church )