Heaven, Hell and the Resurrection (Messianic vs Mainstream)

[Theophilos18]

Good Evening All,

I have friends from many Christian sects, including one who recently has decided to follow Messianic Jewish teachings and he sent me links to the Youtube channel of a Messianic Rabbi. There are a number of videos that run counter to what I have always believed as a Catholic, but this one really makes me uncomfortable. It challenges something that I have always considered core beliefs of all Christians, our concept of what the afterlife is prior to the Resurrection. He cites scripture and his ideas do tie together the various differences in terminology (Gehenna, Heaven, Hell, Hades, Sheol, etc.) found in the Bible, as well as explaining the seemingly different understanding of the afterlife (Sheol) among Hebrews compared to contemporary Christians. I ran this past an Evangelical Protestant friend of mine (you know how they are with their sola scriptura) and even he could only muster a confused, “well… we don’t really know” in response.

I’d really appreciate your help in clearing this up for me. I’m very confused and just don’t have a good counter-argument.

Please watch the video before replying as I’d like you to hear his words rather than my summary of what he says. Since we can’t post links, his Youtube channel is “Unlearn the lies” and the video is “Biblical truth about Life After Death (heaven, hell, and resurrection)”, about 15:50 in.

Thank you so much and God Bless!

 

[Psalms62]

have friends from many Christian sects, including one who recently has decided to follow Messianic Jewish teachings and he sent me links to the Youtube channel of a Messianic Rabbi. There are a number of videos that run counter to what I have always believed as a Catholic, but this one really makes me uncomfortable.

Faith and belief should strengthen and develop your relationship in Christ. If this religion make you uncomfortable then why send it to others?

Messianic Judaism is a sect of Christianity but like Greek Orthodox or Russian Orthodox (as an example) it can be cultural based. Many felt that they wanted to keep within the proximity of both religion and the Torah. Again, the members have a great love for God and believe that Christ is the Messiah.

There are very well educated Jewish members but, they have their denominational (even within this movement) of Orthodox and reform even a further split of Noahide Laws.

I don’t agree with some of the division formating but then even in our sect of Christianity there are denominations that are
Consevative and some Orthodox.

Also, the members speak hebrew as I’m sure some spoke the language in their homes. Some of the members grew up in Jewish homes but have separated. When family separates due a religious issue as faith, especially coming from a Orthodox lifestyle- no one is allowed to talk to them - remember fiddler on the roof? The character Tevye (who i think is awesome) tears his clothes near his heart and when he speaks to his daughter, it through another. That is “how it was and still is”.

They must love our Lord that much to be put through all that and more. Our Lord was treated in much the sameway…again, i respect some for their great love but not all.

 

[rom]

I watched the video. I know why it disturbed you. Catholic belief is that immediately after death you will be judged (particular judgment). If you’ve been good, you either go to purgatory first before heaven, or you go to heaven right away, if you are perfect. If you’ve been bad (I mean really bad), then you go to hell right away. Catholics also believe that there will be another judgment (the general judgment) at the Second Coming of Christ, when everyone who is living will die, and everyone (including those who are already in heaven or in hell) will rise again. After the resurrection, of course, the just will live (with their resurrected bodies) a life of heavenly bliss, while the damned will suffer (with their resurrected bodies) a life of misery in hell.

The video denies the particular judgment and our immediate destiny to heaven, purgatory or hell. The video says that everyone who has died don’t enjoy heaven or suffer hell right away, but everyone has to wait until Christ’s Second Coming and the resurrection of the dead. Only then will everlasting life start for all. According to the video there is no one in Heaven right now except God and, of course, Christ. The rest of the elect are still dead (unconscious), except a few who might be in Paradise (not heaven) in some undetermined location.

My advice to you: LISTEN TO WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES. The Catholic Church is the one instituted by Christ to interpret the Scriptures correctly. The Church includes the Book of Wisdom in its canon; the Jews don’t, which is why the Messianic Rabbi did not see important texts that prove that the just are already enjoying God in heaven: “But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and the torment of death shall not touch them” (Wis 3:1).

 

[ProdglArchitect]

The people are trying desperately to incorporate the OT laws and shape them into something to work with the NT.

I’m pretty sure St. Paul wrote extensively about why this is wrong.

Any number of religions have any number of different beliefs about the afterlife. Most of them are wrong. This is just one more set of wrong beliefs. Anyone can string Bible passages together to make an argument for this or that teaching; that doesn’t make them right. Jesus founded a Church, and gave Her the authority to interpret scripture. He didn’t give it to this random dude whose religion didn’t start up for roughly 1,800 years after Christ’s death.

One very simple proof against his arguments that we aren’t judged immediately is the good thief on the cross. Jesus promised that he would be with Him in Heaven that day. That sounds pretty immediate to me.

 

[rom]

One very simple proof against his arguments that we aren’t judged immediately is the good thief on the cross. Jesus promised that he would be with Him in Heaven that day. That sounds pretty immediate to me.

I agree. The Rabbi in the video actually made a comment on that particular text toward the end of the video. Among other things, he mentioned that the original Greek did not have punctuation marks (such as the comma), and that the comma was only added by the translators. He claimed that in Catholic Bibles, Christ said: “Amen, I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise.” However, he claimed that if the comma were shifted, the meaning would be different. Thus, “Amen, I say to you today, you shall be with me in paradise.” In other words, he claimed that the translators placed the comma in the wrong place.

I happen to find an online interlinear Bible that has the Greek text, English and Latin side by side. http://www.newadvent.org/bible/luk023.htm

The Greek text from Luke 23:43 said: “καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ: ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ.” The comma was there, and the English text was correct: Amen I say to you, today you shall be with me in paradise. Notice that St. Luke wrote his gospel in Greek. So we are not looking at a translation, but the original Greek language.

In interpreting Holy Scripture, it is not enough that you know Greek or Hebrew. You also need to know how the Apostles and the early Christians understood the text. This is why I rely heavily also on the Latin translation by St. Jerome, for he knew how Greek and Hebrew were being used at that time. St. Jerome also placed the comma at the right location and translated the text correctly.

If the interlinear Bible is correct, then it appears the Rabbi was wrong on that particular point.

 

[ProdglArchitect]

You know that these types of people will just say that that website is wrong, and the comma isn’t actually there, despite it being in every known copy produced prior to his sect’s founding.

 

[Theophilos18]

Thanks everyone! This honestly helped so much to affirm my own beliefs and I shared it with my friend as well. After a little preparatory prayer and a few hours of conversation and debate, I’ve pointed out to him a few other inconsistencies and contradictions as well. He has agreed that the Catholic faith definitely makes more sense on a number of fronts and is looking into a church near him. I’m leaving it be for now, don’t want to push him too hard all at once, but I do believe we’ve made substantial progress. Absolutely could not have done it without you all and I wanted to share the outcome.