Heaven is for Real – Do you need to die to experience heaven? (What does your faith teach you?)

[PietroPaolo]

I’ve been to one, but I wouldn’t say my experience was heavenly. It was interesting.

Your subjective experience might not have been heavenly, but the objective reality you were beholding was. It’s not dissimilar to those who beheld the face of Christ while He walked the Earth. They were beholding God (objectively), even if they would have only described the experience of meeting Him as “interesting” (subjectively).

 

[PietroPaolo]

Pax Christi!

There are stories, or claims, of visions of the afterlife: hell, Purgatory; some are deemed “worthy of belief” by the Church. None are we required to believe. The children at Fatima are examples, and I believe St. Teresa of Avila. But I don’t recall reading of “worthy” visions of Heaven.

No, Dante doesn’t count.

God bless.

I wouldn’t dismiss Dante too quickly. He wasn’t a visionary and never claimed to be, but his theology is sound. La Commedia was rightly been called “The Summa in verse.”

 

[PietroPaolo]

They are places.

Otherwise I could be sat next to Satan and that would not be Heaven to share space with him would it. Do you not remember the great vault between Abraham’s Bosom and Hell?

They are places, indeed. Otherwise, where will the bodies of the saved and the damned be after the general resurrection? Bodies take up space and, thus, must be in some place. We are not destined to be disembodied spirits forever. We will return to our bodies and, therefore, will have to be somewhere, some place. Either a place of Paradise or a place of Torment. Either Heaven or Hell.

 

[TruthBearer]

Because we do not have the senses to experience the other life on our own; we will not, unless God gives us a vision, until we get there.

ICXC NIKA

The faculty by which we see things in this world is the eyes, the faculty by which we see things spiritually is our spirit (soul).

In the introduction of Philokalia: The Eastern Christian Spiritual Texts (Selections Annotated and Explained) Annotation by Allyne Smith Translations by G.E.H Palmer, Philip Sherrand and Bishop Kallistos Ware.

The author writes, “The soul is understood as having more than one faculty. For our purpose, the important distinction to draw is between the faculty of dianoia and that of the nous. The dianoia is understood as being responsible for discursive reasoning, the faculty we use, for instance in logic and mathematics. But the** nous** is the spiritual aspect of the psyche, the faculty through which we experience God. Latin theologians such as Thomas Aquinas preserved this distinction, translating **dianoia **as ratio (reason) and nous as intellectus (intellect). But since reason and intellect are used almost synonymously these days, it is important to understand how the two terms are used in the Philokalia and other Eastern Christian texts. The nous is ‘the eye of the soul,’ the very heart of what it means to be a person made in the image and likeness of God. It is the spiritual faculty through which we directly experience God. Darkened by the fall, the nous must be purified through watchfulness, prayer, and other spiritual practices.”

I know the Catholics and the Orthodox divided on many issues, are they also divided on this aspect as well???

 

[TruthBearer]

In orthodoxy there is the tradition of the Beatific vision, in which one experiences a state which is beyond description. Its neatly summarized in a little book in the Philokalia volume four, called “on faith.”

That being said what is heaven, what is true heaven? It is not a disembodied state in which we are only soul and not body it is in the Resurrection we can truly say we are experiencing heaven because then everything has been fulfilled.

I have the Philokalia, and read it. It is a nice summary.

 

[TruthBearer]

Heaven and Hell are not places but states of mind in which the we finds ourselves- so we can experience both heaven and hell while on earth.

However, we can not maintain this state for very long while alive, because the body has its own state and needs - hunger, thirst, pain, sickness etc which we can not control. It is only after death that we can experience Heaven for an extended period of time (except that we all have to pass through purgatory first).

I’ve read that before as well. Interesting.

 

[TruthBearer]

It seems to be a vision he had, which I acknowledge occur. I also think people can have out of body experience when they have “died”. I would think it unlikely for one to “go to heaven for an hour or two during surgery” and come back as the book makes out.

It was probably a vision. So is heaven a place that exist now, or is it a place that exist in the future???

 

[TruthBearer]

I do not believe the “Heaven is For Real” at all. Mainly because of his description of heaven seems more delusional. For example claims of Jesus riding a horse and angels singing his favorite Biblical songs, but wouldn’t sing Queen’s We Will Rock You. It sounds more like he was either making it up since kids do that (especially since the cardiac monitor didn’t show he was dead nor did the parents present any medical evidence) or the father added elements of the story to make it more interesting to readers.

I believe the kid.

You also forgot to mention the next part of 2 Corinthians 12:2 and verse 3 and 4. “Whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows. And I know that such a person-whether in the body or out of the body I do not know; God knows-was caught up into Paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.”

I didn’t forget to mention, I just didn’t mention it. I have often pondered on the meaning of the last part that I did not mention.

What did Paul see, that would have been forbidden for him to mention??? I guess we will never know.

 

[TruthBearer]

Because if it is God’s will that you have a genuine vision or revelation of some kind, He will make it happen whether you want it to or not.

I don’t see anything wrong with trying to make it happen.

If you attempt to seek that sort of thing on your own will you could be opening yourself up demonic influences that may seem empowering, but aren’t a genuine vision or message from God.

If you are with God and God is with you, demonic influences would be the least of my worries.

If God is with you, who can oppose you? If God is with you, how are you not protected? If God is with you, who is more powerful than He who created the heavens and the earth?

Those who are with God, are protected by Him, they are protected by His angels, and they are protected by His Saints. That is a reality. God has an Army and there is none that can defeat Him and His Army. Believe that.

 

[TruthBearer]

Your subjective experience might not have been heavenly, but the objective reality you were beholding was. It’s not dissimilar to those who beheld the face of Christ while He walked the Earth. They were beholding God (objectively), even if they would have only described the experience of meeting Him as “interesting” (subjectively).

We are always in the presence of God. Always beholding Him. There is not a moment that God leaves our side, there is not a moment that His assistance is not there, there is not a moment that one is absent from His Love.

Did not Jesus say, “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21)???

 

[PietroPaolo]

We are always in the presence of God. Always beholding Him. There is not a moment that God leaves our side, there is not a moment that His assistance is not there, there is not a moment that one is absent from His Love.

Did not Jesus say, “Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21)???

Yes, but those who beheld the face of Christ (and the Eucharist) are in the physical presence of God, not just the omnipresent spiritual presence of God (which we do not necessarily behold, thus atheists can exist).

This is why Jesus could also say, “The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.” (Matt 26:11)

 

[TruthBearer]

Yes, but those who beheld the face of Christ (and the Eucharist) are in the physical presence of God, not just the omnipresent spiritual presence of God (which we do not necessarily behold, thus atheists can exist).

This is why Jesus could also say, “The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.” (Matt 26:11)

Well, I didn’t feel anything at the Catholic mass. Just because your subjective experience is heavenly, doesn’t make my subjective experience heavenly.

 

[PietroPaolo]

Well, I didn’t feel anything at the Catholic mass. Just because your subjective experience is heavenly, doesn’t make my subjective experience heavenly.

I didn’t say either my or your subjective experience was Heavenly. I said the objective reality you beheld was Heaven on Earth. Whether or not you felt that way is beside the point. A person on LSD might feel that they are floating in defiance of the law of gravity (subjective experience). Nevertheless, they remain firmly planted on the ground (objective fact).

 

[rinnie]

Heaven is for Real – Do you need to die to experience heaven?

I watched the movie, Heaven is for Real, and it seems the Christians portrayed in the movie felt one needed to die in order to experience heaven.

What are the different views on this? What do Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Jews, Hindus have to say about experiencing Heaven before one dies?

I am not sure what each Christian sect (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox) believes or teaches concerning this, but according to the Bible, it seems that one does NOT need to die in order to experience heaven.

Paul said, I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

Share your thoughts…

I’m going to search the net to see if I can find anything similar in different religions.

Yes it is real. God promised us he has gone ahead and prepared a place for us, and when he is ready will come back and take us there.

Can you experience heaven on earth? I guess if you are in a state of Grace. And how you define heaven.

If you want everlasting life in heaven with Christ, yes you must die to this world to live in the next.

We must die because of our sin, it is our sin that caused death.

But you can have a piece if heaven on earth by Holy Communion, the Sacraments. But the completion of heaven is meeting Christ face to face and living with him in eternal life.

 

[GEddie]

The physical senses are not attributes of the physical body. The sense of sight for example is not a physical sense, it is an attribute of the soul. We do not need physical eyes in order to see. (look up “paradoxical sleep” and the dream state for example). In heaven we will have full sight of all creation without physical eyes.

The autonomic system of the body and consciousness as a whole is not a physically run phenomenon. Consciousness and autonomics are again, attributes of the soul…

There is no doubt that the world beyond this one is as different, yet, all encompassing, to this world, as this world is is as different, and all encompassing, to the world of the womb.

Just as the baby inevitably enters this world, we too inevitably enter another world beyond this one.

How we function spiritually in the next world can be defined as the grades between heaven and hell. The spiritual perfections that we acquire in this world contribute to the maximum bliss experienced in the next world.

In like manner, the physical perfections acquired in the world of the womb contribute to the maximum bliss experienced in this world.

This is heaven
.

If that were true, we wouldn’t need eyes for sight, or heads for knowing; yet we do.

Consciousness too requires the brain stem in our head to be operational; if that stops working or is broken, we go unconscious, then dead, it’s purely physical.

ICXC NIKA

 

[White_Tree]

Heaven is for Real – Do you need to die to experience heaven?

I watched the movie, Heaven is for Real, and it seems the Christians portrayed in the movie felt one needed to die in order to experience heaven.

What are the different views on this? What do Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Jews, Hindus have to say about experiencing Heaven before one dies?

I am not sure what each Christian sect (Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox) believes or teaches concerning this, but according to the Bible, it seems that one does NOT need to die in order to experience heaven.

Paul said, I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a man was caught up to the third heaven. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

Share your thoughts…

I’m going to search the net to see if I can find anything similar in different religions.

Padmasambhava, author of the Tibetan Book of the Dead, and a great Buddhist master, would agree with Paul. Certainly not necessary to die (physically) to experience heaven. Here’s what he wrote:

Since one does not discern the abiding nature,
Which is the fundamental reality of all things,
One is cast into cyclic existence, not knowing that appearances are to be identified with the mind,
And, not discerning one’s own mind to be buddha, nirvana becomes obscured.
The apparent dichotomy between cyclic existence and nirvana is due to the dichotomy between ignorance and awareness,
But in reality there is no temporal divide between these two, even by a single moment.

So in other words, heaven is here, right now, and can be experienced immediately, if we could only remove the blinders on our perception.

Similarly, in the Hevajra Tantra, it says:
“Ignorance gives rise to external form. Purged of ignorance, samsara becomes nirvana.”

 

[Allegra]

I don’t see anything wrong with trying to make it happen.

If you are with God and God is with you, demonic influences would be the least of my worries.

If God is with you, who can oppose you? If God is with you, how are you not protected? If God is with you, who is more powerful than He who created the heavens and the earth?

Those who are with God, are protected by Him, they are protected by His angels, and they are protected by His Saints. That is a reality. God has an Army and there is none that can defeat Him and His Army. Believe that.

If you are with God, then you will wait and listen for the messages/visions that He wants you to hear.

 

[adawgj]

I believe the kid.

Well good for you. .

It will take a skeptic like me to see more evidence to believe it.

 

[Servant19]

If that were true, we wouldn’t need eyes for sight, or heads for knowing; yet we do.

Consciousness too requires the brain stem in our head to be operational; if that stops working or is broken, we go unconscious, then dead, it’s purely physical.

ICXC NIKA

Dear brother, I do not need eyes to see. During the dream state, the physical senses are at their most dead (closer to physical death than at any other time), yet the electrical activity in the brain which registers the images of sight and the sounds of hearing, are at the same level as when the senses are fully functional.

This is called paradoxical sleep.

The work of Sam Parnia at the New York State hospital is clearly identifying that consciousness, sight and hearing are sourced from an entity OUTSIDE of the human body.

In religious circles this is outside entity is called the SOUL.

Please look into Sam Parnia’s work, which I know has been greatly welcomed by some prominent professors at the Pontifical Gregorian University.

God bless you

 

[GEddie]

Dear brother, I do not need eyes to see. During the dream state, the physical senses are at their most dead (closer to physical death than at any other time), yet the electrical activity in the brain which registers the images of sight and the sounds of hearing, are at the same level as when the senses are fully functional.

This is called paradoxical sleep.

The work of Sam Parnia at the New York State hospital is clearly identifying that consciousness, sight and hearing are sourced from an entity OUTSIDE of the human body.

In religious circles this is outside entity is called the SOUL.

Please look into Sam Parnia’s work, which I know has been greatly welcomed by some prominent professors at the Pontifical Gregorian University.

God bless you

I will research that, amigo. Thx

However, while seeing in your dreams, you are still using your bodily head; therefore you need your head for sight. Therefore it is inaccurate to say that “senses do not require the body”! Your head is part of your body!

For that matter, seeing in dreams requires images stored in your mind that were captured through your eyes. Those born blind do not see in dreams; and those who become blind see progressively less in their dreams.

Clearly seeing, even in the mind, requires more than “the soul.”

ICXC NIKA